Author Topic: newbie question  (Read 961 times)

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Offline younghunter12

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« on: May 27, 2006, 03:51:00 PM »
Whats the difference between an inline muzzleloder and a traitional muzzleloader? I know a traditional is either a flintlock or a peruossion rifle. Thanks. Alec.

Offline fffffg

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« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2006, 09:32:53 PM »
the flintlock is traditional and has a flint (rock) on the side of the barrel that scratches the steel frizzen to put sparks into the pan which ignights the primer powder , goes thru a hole in the side of the barrel to set off the main charge..., .. the main charge pushes the bullet or ball out the end of the barrel..    ...  percusssion is a gun made later in history aproximatly mid 1800's and it has a percussion cap on top or on the side of the barrel and it fires a light charge into the main charge when hit with the hammer that arcs down when you pull the trigger....    ..    the  inline is a modern version of muzzeloader made for satisfying local hunting regulations so you can use a muzzzeloader with scope and is more water resistent..  picture a 22 rifle where you load the powder then patched ball or slug into the top of the barrel or muzzel....  then you put the cap (or primer) in where you would load the 22 bullet, close the cover over the cap then it is ready to fire.  it has a  triger, safty switch and internal fireing mechanism instead of a hammer.  ...   the traditional guns (flint and percussion) dont have saftys, they must be cocked to fire, then you pull the trigger....  tough to explain without seeing them..  dave.
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Offline spitpatch

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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2006, 03:04:42 AM »
In line loaders are for people who cannot sneak up close enough to their prey (basically girlymen) and have to have scopes/fancy powders/fancy bullets to get the job done.....basically poor shooters. Traditional loaders are for hard core woodsmen and hunters who are skilled at stalking and shooting who do not compromise. without a doubt, the best shooters.
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Offline sharps4590

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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2006, 01:51:30 PM »
fffffg's description is accurate enough.  In-lines are for guys who want to take advantage of another season and kill another deer as easily as possible without learning any more about muzzleloaders than absolutely necessary.  Somtimes they come over to the traditional side of things and learn a lot about real muzzleloading and become better hunters in the process as well as learning  a lot of history.  Not only firearms history but the history of this country.  If that happens, and it oftentimes does,  the in-line goes up for sale rather quickly.  Traditional is not only using a rifle/handgun from a much earlier era, matchlock, flintlock or caplock, but a respect for and learning of how our forefather's did things.

In-lines are modern in appearance and function.  Obviously they can be scoped, the rifling is a much faster twist for use with more differnt kinds of conical style bullets than there can possibly be use for.  Most if not all of them can utilize those little drum looking things of powder called pellets and generally it's an imitation of real black powder.  They can use conventional "caps" or shotgun primers or some other contrived means of ignition and Savage did or does market one that uses smokeless powder.  The only claim they have to being a muzzleloader is that they do indeed load from the muzzle.

Traditional muzzleloaders are of the ignition type specified by fffffg, flintlock or percussion or match lock.  Barrel twist is generally slow, just fast enough to stabilize a round ball.  They're loaded with loose powder and patched round balls.  I always cut my patches on the muzzle altho lots of fella's use precut patches, either purchased or cut at home.  They're almost always open sighted altho some later, Plains style rifles did indeed sport scopes and certainly some Civil War era rifles were fitted with scopes.  They're as accurate as any other rifle on the market and every animal on the face of the earth was taken with the patched round ball long before there was a jacketed or saboted bullet.  The same could be said for arrows and spears.

Ignition of both is the same in principle.  To provide a spark to ignite a main powder charge in the chamber and the expanding gases propel the projectile down the barrel.  The principle is all they have in common.

I don't believe I would go as far as to say traditional muzzleloading riflemen are better shots overall but I will go so far as to say they are almost always better shots with open sights.  I do believe we're better hunters merely because we must be.

Essentially, in-lines are a usurpation of seasons originally intended as traditional or "primitive" in method.  You had to be a better hunter and get close.  Kinda like compound bows, which are a lot easier to use than traditional long bows or recurves.

Vic
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Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2006, 02:01:44 PM »
sounds like i made a good choice, i just got into muzzleloading and my gun is a CVA Plainshunter .50cal, took it out for the first time on saturday and can't wait till wednesday to shoot it again. need a ramrod tho :D been using my dad's Hawken's
I guess it seems more 'right' to use a traditional ML, with either lead ball or conicals, i have 10 Power-belts but i think i'll just use them up and stick to conicals, lead ball patterns at 50yrds like a shotgun. I find it fun to load each time.
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Offline sharps4590

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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2006, 12:12:41 AM »
Unless your CVA has a faster twist rifling specifically for conicals, it's a pretty safe bet you're doing something wrong if it won't shoot round balls at 50 yards any better than what you described.  It's rare indeed that round balls won't out shoot almost any conical, especially when using open sights.

As far as triditional being "more right".......well......I believe so, altho that isn't actually a fact, it's my opinion.  There is a lot of evidence in many states indicating muzzleloading seasons were originally intended for "primitive" weapons.  In-lines obviously aren't very primitive.

Basically you have two distinct groups of muzzleloaders with a lot of guys falling between both groups.  There are "traditionalist's", who are into it to learn how things used to be done, practice them and to reenact as persons from a particular period, ie, French & Indian War, the Longhunters, Rev. War,  Lewis & Clark, War of 1812, the fur trade, the plains migration up to and including the Civil War and the early cowboy/gunfighter period.  Several of these periods will overlap.

Then there is the in-line group who, as I stated before, merely want to take advantage of another deer season, kill another deer and have little or no desire to learn any more about muzzleloaders than absolutely necessary.   As you are learning, it takes a while to work up a load for a muzzleloader, the rifle has to be cleaned or it will rust, it's more difficult to clean a rifle barrel with a fixed breech than one with a removable breech plug.  One has to become a good shot with open sights, your range is limited because of the open sights and the ballistics of the round ball, even more so with the conical due to ballistics, so you have to get closer than when using a scoped rifle.  Cutting a patch on the muzzle and using loose powder isn't as convenient as dropping two pellets and shoving a conical down bore.  Flintlocks, even the best, can sometimes be persnickety and there is the learning curve that automatically goes with flintlocks.  In short, it's more effort than the in-line group desires to invest in killing another deer.  It's a lot like shooting bare bow recurves and long bows as compared to compounds.  One can take a compound or a scope sighted in-line and in short order be good enough to confidently and humanely take a deer.  Traditional muzzleloaders, especially flintlocks, and recurve or long bows require a greater investment of time and study to become proficient with them.  They make for a greater challange, which is why I use them.

Ain't neither one more right than the other, just different.  Both elicit strong opinions.

Vic
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Offline spitpatch

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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2006, 10:28:18 AM »
Very well stated Sharps. I use traditionals because my father did. He used traditionals because his father did, and so on. Black powder has been in my family for as long as I can remember. My Dad and Grandpa taught me to stalk game, and patience, and persistance, and through practice became as good as them, though many things can be learned in the woods that have nothing to do with hunting. I feel using an in line would be an disgrace to everything I've been taught for all these years......won't do it! As sharps stated: it's an easy(lazy) way out.  I don't have a son but plan on teaching my Grandson what I learned from my Grandpa, and giving him the guns that my Grandpa gave to me. God willing.
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Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2006, 12:31:59 PM »
I like the sidelock in itself, hearing the primer pop then a boom with a big smoke cloud :D

My CVA is rather short with a 1:48twist, it's one of those kit deals i think. my neighbor was saying that's why it wouldn't shoot patched ball well.

another question, what is the best value i suppose for conical bullets? are non-lubed ones patched or coated with patch lube?
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Offline spitpatch

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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2006, 03:27:50 PM »
Sniper...I have the very same gun. It's a CVA St. Louis Hawkin. Mine (54 cal) shoots the PRB very well. mine can keep 3" groups all day long at 100yds. .535 ball /.010 patch / 80Gr. 2F goex. It also was a kit gun. Nailed several deer with it. It came with a 50 cal barrel also.
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Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2006, 04:31:46 PM »
are you sure? mines a Plainshunter, at a guess its maybe 2/3 as long as the Hawken at my home, i mean heck theres only one brass ramrod loop thingy(:)). Well does a powder charge change has as much effect as a smokeless rifle would? I read that for FF a 10grn change has a barely perceptible change in POI, so i a big change is needed to make a difference? I got 10 Power Belts, Ball-ets by Buffalo Bullet Co., and hand made lead ball to experiment with on wednesday.
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Offline simonkenton

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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2006, 04:42:43 PM »
With a 1:48 twist it should shoot round balls as well as the conicals. You just need to figure out what is going wrong. Maybe your patches are too thin. How easy is it to load the round balls? If they just slide down the barrel, you need a thicker patch.
Round balls are cheap, they are great deer killers, and they are the traditional load, so you owe it to yourself to get them to shoot right.
Aim small don't miss.

Offline captchee

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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2006, 03:50:44 AM »
I would  agree with most everything  everyone here has said .
 I would add this however  and I donÂ’t wish to confuse you .

 As you go deeper “if you chose to go deeper “ into traditional weapons your going to find many different types of  weapons.  there are basically in 2 categories , muzzle loading and breech loading . Breech loading also  being a system that  came about  the same time  as muzzle loading systems did . The two have moved hand in hand with each other  from the beginning .
 Within these categories your going to find all kinds of designs of ignition systems   to include the inline ignition. You will also find safety systems of many types  from simple dog ear catches to full bar type interrupters  very similar to a modern  slide safety on a shotgun  .

 Now this “isnÂ’t “ to  say that  the traditional inline ignition system was anything like the one describe by sharp shooter above .  Because they were not and have very little to do with the modern  firearm we call an inline today .

 Now there are a couple that come close  in ignition system , but when adding the other modern advancements that they carry  they sadly fall short IMO
 Traditional In-line ignitions systems that I have seen photos of were  Fuse, flint and percussion  respectively with the flint system dating back to  around 1710,1720 time frame.  Most  that I have seen were very high end guns made by famous makers like Purdy ,Pauly , Manton  and  more then a few fine German and French makers that  I cant spell LOL.
 Anyway the average person  most likely did not carry these weapons . Excluding some of the fuse lock designs that were used by  military units

The percussion system was relatively short lived in comparison to the flintlock ,  With the advent of the percussion  cap . 1810 - 1820 “depending on your source “ . and was  quickly over taken by  the cartridge system in popularity .. Relatively some 50 years
 yet it also had  systems which fired the cap  directly inline with the bore of the weapon  .
 The Manton brothers  produced such a weapon in SXS  if I recall correctly around 1850  give or take a few years  as did hall and a few others  right up through the civil war .

 Most times  excluding  traditional inline ignition systems  the side lock was by far the most popular yet  there were many   ignition systems that  fired the cap  by a center type mechanism  .

 Any way  I will close by saying this
 IMO its sad that the modern muzzle loading firearm of today   has  so  destroyed  the mental picture of weapons that carry  such a system . We often now, because of this ,automatically  associate  a in-line muzzle loading system with these weapons and IMO that a bad injustice.

 Lastly welcome to the sport , have fun . But above all  do not fall far the hard line “ this is the way it is Â… period “  types .
Seek out  information  and come to your own conclusions .

Offline spitpatch

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« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2006, 04:39:29 AM »
Maybe it's not the same gun. Mine is just like you described but is loaded with brass furniture, DS triggers, and two brass ramrod barrels. It's a short rifle W/ 1:48 twist....anyway.....have fun.
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Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2006, 12:43:01 PM »
Quote from: simonkenton
With a 1:48 twist it should shoot round balls as well as the conicals. You just need to figure out what is going wrong. Maybe your patches are too thin. How easy is it to load the round balls? If they just slide down the barrel, you need a thicker patch.
Round balls are cheap, they are great deer killers, and they are the traditional load, so you owe it to yourself to get them to shoot right.


im using traditions pre-lubed patches, .015" its not easy to load but not hard.
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Offline sharps4590

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« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2006, 03:32:09 PM »
lostsniper, get some .490 round balls and good patching, 15-18 thousandths thick and of a tight weave.  In most rifles of 50 cal that should be a pretty darn good starting point.  Start at 50 grs. and work up to 90 grs. in 5 grain increments.  There should be one charge that will be better than the rest to some degree.  You're correct that a 10 grain charge increase won't show much of a velocity gain but don't worry about velocity with black powder like you do smokeless.  You aren't looking for velocity, you're looking for accuracy.   There isn't much velocity to play with as it is, as compared to smokeless powder.   The 1-48 twist should shoot round balls as well as if not better than conicals, regardless of what your neighbor said.  1-48 isn't really that fast a twist but it isn't 1-66 or 1-70 either.  I believe it is as fast as one would want to go in a 50 cal. round ball gun.

Agreeing with another poster, I suspect patch failure for your dismal round ball accuracy.

You're experiencing no more frustration than most of us have had at one time or another, if they've been in the muzzleloading game very long.  You may not even realize it but you're learning quite a bit!

As far as your conical question that might be better asked in another forum.  I suspect most guys here, me included, have much more experience with PRB than conicals, at least in muzzleloaders, as we've always found them more than adequate for our needs and they're definitely more traditional....in this instance one could say, "they're more right".  Especially when you start talking "power belts" and "sabot's", "jacketed hollow point" pistol bullets and the like.  Makes me shudder at the thought of ramming one of those down the barrel of any of my muzzleloaders.....well....it ain't gonna happen.  If I need a conical there are several BPC rifles in the toy box which will provide for it.

If ya wanna talk about bullets in BPC rifles.....be gald to do that with ya....in the next forum up.  It's another critter completely.

Vic
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Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2006, 07:39:33 AM »
WEll i went out to da range and the Power Belts group well but so do the conicals so i'll just shoot up the power belts and use conicals to remain traditional. second time out, and it shows, 6 spent primers later i figured out i never loaded the gun, i was too embarrased to continue. next time i'm gonna have a file and punch to actually sight in the rifle.
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Offline spitpatch

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« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2006, 10:11:39 AM »
Lostsniper......Now that's funny! Probably because I've done it numerous times myself.....There's only two kinda' people using muzzleloaders, Those who have forgotten to charge the barrel....and those who will. When I first started muzzleloading I was probably the worlds worst about forgetting to charge them (mostly while jaw jacking) then ramming a ball, and remembering about the time I'd get it tamped. Through all this I figured out a fast way to expell the ball without using the puller. I remove the nipple, CAREFULLY fill the drum, blowing out any excess and cleaning the threads, CAREFULLY replace the nipple, and the ball will blow about ten feet out. This is probably a risky practice but has always worked for me. The operative word here is CAREFUL, especially when it comes to powder on the nipple threads. Any opinions on this practice?
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Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2006, 11:18:28 AM »
what kind of charge grn wise? I don't know how much powder i wasted putting little in the nipple itself to set off the main charge but there wasn't one as ya know.
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Offline fffffg

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« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2006, 04:20:26 AM »
dont bother sighting it in for several months..  maybe left and right for now.. i dont sight in bp guns for a long long time..  you just dont know what your going to end up with..  if you start fileing and punching now, you may not have much left by the end of the summer..   dave..
montana!, home of the wolf,  deer,mtn goats,sheep, mountain lions, elk, moose and griz...

Offline spitpatch

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« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2006, 06:55:03 AM »
I fill the hole (after nipple removal)Then turn drum upwards and tap the gun with my hand so that the powder goes toward the ball, repeat a couple times till drum is full, leave room to rethread nipple (CAREFULLY). Blow out excess if over full. Should be maybe a few grains of powder in the drum by now, just enough to shoot a patched ball out a few feet, never tried it with anything else......patched balls are all I shoot but it should work with anything. PS.....If your not sure if ball is out, remove nipple again and blow through barrel.....should have very little resistance if ball is out. Also run patch jag to ensure patch is out if your not sure. Sounds like a lot of trouble but it sure beats screwing it out. (IMHO)
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Offline lostsniper308

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« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2006, 09:08:49 AM »
Quote from: fffffg
dont bother sighting it in for several months..  maybe left and right for now.. i dont sight in bp guns for a long long time..  you just dont know what your going to end up with..  if you start fileing and punching now, you may not have much left by the end of the summer..   dave..


well i should at least get the POI up so actually hits the target i aim at eh?
B Co. 1-22Inf 1st BCT 4th Infantry Division
OIF 08-09 out of the army now