Author Topic: 357 mag vs 45 colt for black bears (Read 11080 times)

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #30 on:** April 05, 2006, 07:06:58 AM »

Rolltide: Great post!

I am not ready to get rid of my 300 grain hard cast bullets yet and probably never will, (I have had to many good out comes with them). But I can see what he is saying and it does make a lot of sense! The 240's are using all/or most of their energy inside the bear. Makes a lot of sense on broad side shots, really it does!

FKNIPFER: After shooting one with a 357 mag (again he did die) and watching another one that was wounded with a rifle, take 3 hits to the chest with a 357 mag (read later killed with my 44 mag). I can say I would never ever use a 357 mag again for black bear hunting and/or bear defense. I will not let my wife nor my adult sons use one as well. Those are my only two incidents involving bears with the 357 mag. All the rest of my incidents have been with the 44 mag or rifles. If your outcomes have been different then by all means continue with the 357 mag. Every situation is a little different and I will not try to change your mind. I was just trying to give my best advise based on my experience to GUNPILOT's question!

fknipfer · « **Reply #31 on:** April 05, 2006, 01:03:27 PM »

I don't have any experience with bears I was just looking at the 783ft lbs and 180gr bullet put out by Buffalo Bore and was theorizing. Since standard 44mags have about the same energy as the souped up .357. But I stand corrected to experience and will sign off now.

fknipfer

Dee · « **Reply #32 on:** April 05, 2006, 05:57:13 PM »

I believe the actual question was 357 mag vs 45 lc. In a strong revolver such as the Ruger or Smith a souped up 45 LC will do anything a 44 mag will do. As for the intentional head shot on an all out charge from ANY bear. I'd like to see that on film. Put as many rounds IN HIM as you can and try to make him re-think his decision to commit to a fight. Facing a mad feral hog (which we have lots of feral hogs) in the 200 to 350 pound range is invigorating to say the least (especially in thick brush) but, taking the time for a PRECISE head shot with pistol OR rifle when you only have seconds. I don't think so. Even a sow (female) with babies will get you down and kill you if she can. Load'em down with as much lead as you can get into them and hope for the best. :wink:

RollTide · « **Reply #33 on:** April 13, 2006, 02:17:00 PM »

We had already discussed the virtues of the 44mag and the 45lc. What you say about the 45 is true, you just have to buy special loads or reload to do it. The 44mag will do the same with loads you can buy anywhere, thus logistical advantage to the 44mag.

As for not taking a head shot, what other target is presented on a charging bear? The head IS your biggest target on a charging bear. Now the brain is a whole other matter, that is why you will need a load that will stop or turn the bear no matter if it strikes the brain or not.

I do agree with your implication that in an emergency situation, all you will have time for is to shoot where they are "biggest" and hope for the best. Just make sure you carry enough gun and neither standard 357 or standard 45lc fit into that category for black bears. The standard 240gr JHP in 44mag does.

Best regards,

Roll Tide

fknipfer · « **Reply #34 on:** April 13, 2006, 06:18:38 PM »

If I carried the .357 I was not carrying the standard loads. The Bullet Bore ammo I bought was 180 grain and 1400fps and 783flt lbs of energy. This is as much as the standard 240gr 44mag. in fact a little higher. I think I will just leave my handguns at home and just keep a hold of my 45-70 with 350grain flat nose at 2000fps. I probably will be ok then.

fknipfer

JD11 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 27, 2006, 04:17:58 AM »

Here where I live grizzlies have been sighted WAY out of the Yellowstone Park boundaries, in fact three friends got mauled just last hunting season. The majority of guys (including myself) prefer a 45 Long Colt handload. With a 300+ grain hard cast bullet, a healthy dose of H-110 it packs more punch than a 357 or 44 Mag. For a lot of great 45LC info (not his rebored modified, etc, guns) go to John Linebaugh's site.

However with that said, I've gotten tired of packing my heavy LC Ruger Vaquero on horseback, flyfishing, etc, and switched to a 44Mag 329 Smith due to the way lighter weight.

Quote

As for the intentional head shot on an all out charge from ANY bear. I'd like to see that on film.

That's for sure! Guys that's "been there, done that" all say those babies are on you in a flash. One guy, who's a bull rider, so he's darned athletic, only had time to duck behind a tree. Him and the bear zig zagged back and forth, then he said he zigged when he should have zagged, the bear got him down, he still didn't get his pistol out, but fortunately the hunter he was guiding managed to shoot her. He got his right ribcage bruised and bitten but his heavy coat really saved him.

Dave Shooter · « **Reply #36 on:** April 27, 2006, 02:38:33 PM »

Quote from: superjay01

I'm in the same boat you are in. I'm looking for a good pack gun. The problem that I am having is they don't make a 44 mag in a small frame. I am considering a 357 mag because of that point alone. The only thing I have come close to in a big caliber is a Ruger Alaskan, but they are a bit big for me in both size and price. So, I'm thinking that I will end up with the 357 mag.

It was used many moons ago for example 260 gr speer jhp loaded with 10 grains of unique powder and that bear is a stiff for sure. That is what i used to shoot out of my ruger and tc.
Dave Shooter

Robert357 · « **Reply #37 on:** May 21, 2006, 07:52:27 AM »

Quote from: RollTide

...neither standard 357 or standard 45lc fit into that category for black bears. The standard 240gr JHP in 44mag does..

I have 357 Mag, 45 LC, and 44 Mag revolvers and I hand load.
In standard typically over the counter factory loads neither the 357 Mag, nor 45 LC can hold a candle to the 44 Mag.

Two questions........

(1) Would you consider a 357 Mag with either 200 gain total jacketed flat point silloette bullet or 180 grain Hornday jacketed HP's and lots of Alliant 2400 powder behind it after a careful load work up to a +P level adequate for black bears? (Most over the counter 357 ammo and 158 grain bullets are pretty tame for taking a large animal.)

(2) How about a 45 LC with large 250 grain jacketed HP bullet and enough Alliant 2400 so it is approximately in the same velocity range as a 44 Mag?
(In Washington State a SAMI factory 45 LC in long barreled revolver is considered appropriate for deer & black bear by the dept of Wildlife)

Sir Knight · « **Reply #38 on:** May 21, 2006, 04:53:40 PM »

I thought the .45LC from Buffolo Bore exceeded the .44mag

hogship · « **Reply #39 on:** May 27, 2006, 05:15:52 AM »

Quote from: fknipfer

I have a 357 Mag Ruger Service Six, SA/DA with a four inch barrell and when I carry it in the woods I load it with Buffalo Bore's 180gr 1400fps and 783lbs of energy. Now this is a self defense gun on black bears only and at close range 10 to 15yds at most. I do not feel unarmed or not safe as this is about the same energry produced from a 44mag 240gr round. The Ruger is a lot lighter and can be worn on a holster all day.

fknipfer

It's funny you should mention the Ruger 4" service six......because I knew someone who took down a charging black bear with one about 30yrs ago. I don't know what cartridge he was using, but there was no such thing as Buffalo Bore back then. He was a reloader, so I can't be certain it wasn't reloads. He and I both moved on years ago, so I have no contact with him anymore.

If I remember right, he use all six shots, but the bear was down and out before all six were used. I can remember him stating that he waited until the bear was close before shooting.....and that it was hard not to shoot before the time was right!

hog

PaulS · « **Reply #40 on:** May 27, 2006, 11:39:02 PM »

I have a lot of faith in my ability with my Ruger Security-Six 6" but I don't think I would want to rely on it to kill a black bear - especially one that was charging even with my reloads which are admittedly very near maximum pressure. A deer? sure. A cougar? yes. A 300 pound bundle of attitude and anger? no. . . . not today, I have too much that needs to be done before I jump into a coffin. I might be able to stop the bear, either with skill or luck (or a combination of both) but I don't like the odds. I don't even like to think about the odds. I am glad your friend is ok but I bet he had to clean his drawers when he got home.

gunpilot · « **Reply #41 on:** June 20, 2006, 08:31:10 PM »

thanks for all the info. I have owned 2 44 mags, and did not like the recoil. I have decided to try an old model ruger vaquero in 45 colt. Ruger says I can shoot +p loads in the old model. I will try cor bon 200 gr + p JHP rated at 537 ft lbs of ME in a 4 inch barrel. I just found a vaquero which i believe is a 5.5 inch barrel. I hope the recoil is tolerable and effective. Is this a good choice? I do not handload.

gunpilot · « **Reply #42 on:** June 20, 2006, 08:43:17 PM »

p.s. is the sectional density of the 200 gr bullet high enough for adequate penetration?

RollTide · « **Reply #43 on:** July 04, 2006, 07:16:18 AM »

Gunpilot,
I do not believe the 200gr 45 would be adequate for penetration. I believe that once you use an adequate weight bullet at an adequate velocity in the 45LC, you will be right back in the same recoil range as the 44MAG. A single action "rolls" in recoil more than a double action, so that makes the felt recoil a little less with the single action. Of course follow-up shots, which will almost certainly be needed in a handgun bear defense scenario, regardless of caliber, will be MUCH slower with a single action. If recoil is a major issue, you could go with a heavier double action. I carry a 4" Dan Wesson 44 mag for such duty. It is superbly accurate, low recoil due to weight of gun, and fast on follow up shots. I am a big guy, so the extra weight is a minor consideration to me campared to the obvious benefits. A Ruger single action will certainly do the job ballistically in 45LC with heavy bullets in the +P or +P+ velocity range (NOT the 200gr number). Single actions are light and probably have less felt recoil per weight of gun than any double action. The only drawback is speed of shooting.

There are tradeoff's either way you go, but I am glad to see you opted for the 45 over the 357. That was a wise decision.

Roll Tide