Winchester 94 Timber Carbine 444

[JDenis]

I recently bought one of these rifles and went shooting with it. I used both Remington 240 grn'ers and Hornady 265 grn'ers. The first two 265's chambered and fired fine. Then after two remingtons were fired I tried to load 2 more 265's. The rifle wouldn't chamber the round. Long story short I tried to get something to free up and a piece of the lever assembly broke. Spent some time at the smiths and now I am debating selling it. Is there any other good bullets out there that this gun will chamber? I really wanted to hunt with the Hornady 265's because I have heard bad things about the Remingtons but don't dare try using them again. Any advise or personal experience would be helpful. Thanks

JD

[wijim]

I recently bought one of these rifles and went shooting with it. I used both Remington 240 grn'ers and Hornady 265 grn'ers. The first two 265's chambered and fired fine. Then after two remingtons were fired I tried to load 2 more 265's. The rifle wouldn't chamber the round. Long story short I tried to get something to free up and a piece of the lever assembly broke. Spent some time at the smiths and now I am debating selling it. Is there any other good bullets out there that this gun will chamber? I really wanted to hunt with the Hornady 265's because I have heard bad things about the Remingtons but don't dare try using them again. Any advise or personal experience would be helpful. Thanks

JD

get rid of tyhat gun is all i can say.  i had one had the same problem.  i loved that 444 marlin round.  i talked to winchester and the gun was designed around that rem 240 gr cartridge.  the problem with the hornadys (the best round made for that gun in my opinion) is that they are .005" too long.  each bullet must be reseated into the cartridge.  see the hornady tolerances were built for the marlin .444.  

i bet you have also noticed spotty to horrible groupings with that rem 240 gr cartridge.  the reason for this is that bullet was designed for a handgun.  its the same bullet used in 44 cal handguns.  it doesnt have the integrity to be shot with that heavier charge out of a long barrel.  it mishapes itself.  the hornady bullet 265 gr...is up to the task and groups better.  problem is...your gun will be a single shot using those.  the little thing (yes a technical term...lol)  that lifts the cartridged after ejection from the tube mag is too short from the back where the rim of the cart. hits to the front of the tube.  it needs to be ground down at least .07"...but that can make the gun unsafe from what i was told by the gunsmith i was dealing with and he had to research this with a bunch of .444 enthusiast gun smiths.  

my solution was to get rid of that gun and i was going to get a marlin .444, but went instead for the guide gun in 45/70.  

you are so limited in factory rounds with that gun.  unless of course you reload.  then you should have no problems.  just make sure you use .44 caliber bullets up to the task of that pressure.  

that .444 is a cool caliber and has nice ballistics for a big bore.  and the energy retention is awesome.

[wijim]

oh yeah....does your model 94 have a ported barrel?  thats another reason i got rid of that gun.  i mean i like loud guns...but that was so dang loud it hurt with good ear cups on.  the loud was fun at first...but after awhile..it was just annoying.

the reason i switched to the 45/70 is, i like the wider selection of factory ammo.....as i dont reload.  and if im out of state and need to buy ammo...most places have it..plus its cheaper to shoot.

[JDenis]

Thanks wijim, yeah it does have a ported barrel. But I do have a guide gun in the 45/70 and it also has a ported barrel. I hate the idea of ports but what can ya do. I do reload and thats the only reason I am even contemplating keeping the 94. It's a tough decision but I got it pretty cheap and its in very good condition.

[wijim]

Thanks wijim, yeah it does have a ported barrel. But I do have a guide gun in the 45/70 and it also has a ported barrel. I hate the idea of ports but what can ya do. I do reload and thats the only reason I am even contemplating keeping the 94. It's a tough decision but I got it pretty cheap and its in very good condition.

in that case you need to seat your bullets like i suggested, and that info comes from both the winchester tech support and hornady as well.  when i was in contact with them, this situation was nothing new.  in fact winchester was almost complacent with this as though it was a pretty common complaint and offered no other help to the point of being almost rude.

i hope ya get it figured out, but i bet you can tell by the difference between your marlin lever action and the model 94....that there is a world of difference in the "heavy duty factor".  if it were me...i'd fix the model 94 and get the marlin .444 because i really like how those marlins are put together.  dont get me wrong the model 94 is a great gun....but i just dont think it converts well to that big cartridge and caliber.  they were best with the 30/30.....i know thats what i shot my first deer with..lol :lol:

[Mikey]

JDenis:  I have a (former) Black Shadow (now Traditional Rifle wqith pistol grip stock) in 444 that the lever broke on before I even got  the thing to the range, but I had it sent back to Winchester for repair and have not had any problems since.  In fact, it is now a real sweetheart, smooth and firelapped and incredibly accurate.  I also have a Timber Carbine that I just love - I call it Mighty Mouse.  It will eat anything I put through it, including 300 and 335 grain cast slugs and groups like you wouldn't believe.

One thing I have found out about the Winchesters is that they are bullet length sensitive - gotta be factory length or you will have action jams and chambering problems (getting it all the way into the chamber).  That being said, I have used the Beartooth Bullet loading data and bullets in all my Winchester 444s and do not have any problems at all.

I would simply have the rifle sent back to Winchester for repair.  The Browning/Winchester repair shop is in Missouri, I believe and you can call them and relay the problem and ask for instructions on returing it for repair.  They have some very nice people there to help you out with these things and I have found their service to be excellent.  

I can guarantee ya that if you reload the 444 is a marvelous caliber that is good for anything in the continental US and with those heavy slugs most anything (even dangerous) you would encounter.  I would repair that Timber Carbine and hang on to it and use it all you want - it's a great rifle and incredibly handy.  I have found the porting to reduce recoil with the heavy loads and if you really want to have some fun, try ruining your night vision by shooting it at night - it will light up the neighborhood (lolol).  HTH.  Mikey.

[JDenis]

Thanks Mikey,

The gun is now fixed (55 dollars) so I am still fighting with the decision to keep it or sell it. I check some reloading manuals last night and looked at the factory loaded ammo from hornady and remington. I THINK I can just seat the bullets (hornady 265's) just a little deeper and not have a problem. Again I said I THINK but I have to try and give this gun a chance. Can you give me any info on the beartooth bullets mainly 300 grainers as far as C.O.L. when you have loaded them. Also what powder is good for the 444. Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks
JD

[Mikey]

JD - I would hot foot it right on over to the www.Beartoothbullets.com site and check in.  They have more data than I could ever relay to you and a good sized forum for shooter input.  

Marshall Stanton owns and operates Beartooth Bullets and the 444 Marlin caliber is his favorite lever action rounds.  You have to read what he has written and check out the loading data on his site - it is phenominal.

He makes all sorts of bullets and bullet designs for the 444 and gives col for each load.  Just make certain that when you load them you load them to proper length.  He tested all his loads in the Marlin rifles and they have a hair, and I mean just one hair's width more leeway than the Winnies but all his loads are incredible and worked phenominally in my Winchesters, as my freezer full of Russian Boar and Elk states............. HTH.  Mikey.

[DLuke]

I'm another guy who loves his Timber 444.  I've never had a problem with the lever or troubles with the Hornady ammo.  I call it the Bullpup...

[Old Time Hunter]

Jdenis, DO NOT RE-SEAT the bullets in the cartridge that is already been charged. You could be asking for trouble. Do it when you are re-loading. Boy, one slip and....BANG!
Regarding the .444Marlin and '94 Winchester: I have six of them.

2-'94 Black Shadow's (1 NIB)
3-'94 Timber Carbine's (2-NIB)
1-'94 BB(Big Bore) XTR

I have only shot Hornady 265's through them, maybe a couple of hundred rounds each, and never have had a problem (yet). Like all lever actions, make sure you are making a full cycle and before you even fire it get familiar with it.

The Winchester by the way is actually stronger than the Marlin, it was designed to handle up to 55K of pressure compared to the Marlin 44k. The Winchester also has a 1-20 twist compared to the 1-38 in a Marlin (changed in the XLR's) which allows for greater stability on heavier loads.

I personally think it's a keeper, just make sure you fully cycle the lever. The .444 is probably the most versatile Big Bore round and the Winchester is probably the best package you can get it in. It has the power of a hyped up 45-70 without the high arc trajectory. Read Paco Kelley's article on Leverguns.com regarding the .444 it might help your decision.

By the way, I load all mine with a overall length of 2.540. The factory rounds generally are somewhere between 2.520 and 2.570.

[BoarHunter]

This one did not like my Hornady handload shot out of my Win 94 traditional (no stupid ported barrel)  



I have used it for drive hunting since 2000, result about 20 wild boars (not as big as the one above, sorry) and 30 roebuck deer. One wild boar at 200 meters (standing !), a double of 2 running deers at 90 meters and 120 with 3 bullets. True, you need to give some lead if running and aim high when distance is more than 150 m (which I try to avoid but !). So long no crippled.

For still hunting I use a .300WM Sako but definitely when I need something  handy, quick to mount and aim and potent, I wouldn't trade my Win 94 .444M.

True I did some tune up, polishing and throating but I am surprised about your feeding problem. I crimp on the bullet groove and it never failed to chamber and I always cycle the action fast for a  following shot.

The short ported barrel is a non sense, when you hunt you don't feel the recoil, the regular barrel is handy enough et doesn't waste your hearing.

[JDenis]

Thanks for all the input. I am 90% sure I am keeping the gun at least for a while anyway.

Yeah I wasn't going to reseat the factory Hornadys. I meant when I start reloading with the 265 grain bullets I will seat then deeper than what the factory ammo is.

The ports are terrible, I agree with you guys there.

[wijim]

probably a good thing that i got rid of mine then.  i am not a reloader and would never have been satisfied with the factory ammo available.  hopefully whoever got mine..is a reloader...im sure they'd be happy with it in that case.

[handirifle]

Why not have a smith recut the chamber throat slightly so as to allow the longer bullets?  If it's the last little bit that will not go in.

[Mikey]

handirifle - it isn't the chamber that is the 'length' problem with leveractions, it is the overall action length that will not allow a bullet loaded longer than normal to properly feed through the action.  

I understand the Winchester actions can be 'tweaked' somewhat to allow longer cartridges to feed but I'm not the expert on this one.  It is only something I have heard about.  I think the Marlins can be 'tweaked' as well but again, I'm not sure.  

I have loaded up some rounds in the 444 that were just too long for the action to properly feed them and have had a dickens of a time trying to get them out of the tube magazine.  I could drop them right down the chamber and they seated fine, but they were too long for the action to properly handle.  Not a problem with the single shots.  Mikey.

[LET-CA]

I too have encountered problems with rounds that were too long to cycle out of the tube.  I'm very careful about overall length now.  Mine is also the Timber Carbine (with the sound package).  I always wear hearing protection, and being directly behind the muzzle, I have never really noticed a sound increase like those on either side would.  It's a wonderfully accurate firearm though.  I stopped by the range last weekend and fired a box of handloaded Hornady 265s.  The first five were in one clover-leaf hole in the center of the target.  I then changed targets and shot 15 more through a hole about 1 inch across.

Regarding the comments about the Remington 240 grain bullets; I've read that Remingon actually does load a different bullet in the 444 than the 44 Magnum.  It is designed to take the higher velocities.  "Ranch Dog" on several of the other forums has written about this, after talking with the Remington people.  Remington doesn't sell the 444 version of the 240 grain bullet separately for reloaders though.  Doesn't matter to me because the Hornady bullet is so good.

Anyway, add me to the list of those who wouldn't think of parting with their Winchester 444.

[wijim]

I too have encountered problems with rounds that were too long to cycle out of the tube.  I'm very careful about overall length now.  Mine is also the Timber Carbine (with the sound package).  I always wear hearing protection, and being directly behind the muzzle, I have never really noticed a sound increase like those on either side would.  It's a wonderfully accurate firearm though.  I stopped by the range last weekend and fired a box of handloaded Hornady 265s.  The first five were in one clover-leaf hole in the center of the target.  I then changed targets and shot 15 more through a hole about 1 inch across.

Regarding the comments about the Remington 240 grain bullets; I've read that Remingon actually does load a different bullet in the 444 than the 44 Magnum.  It is designed to take the higher velocities.  "Ranch Dog" on several of the other forums has written about this, after talking with the Remington people.  Remington doesn't sell the 444 version of the 240 grain bullet separately for reloaders though.  Doesn't matter to me because the Hornady bullet is so good.

Anyway, add me to the list of those who wouldn't think of parting with their Winchester 444.

i am the one who commented....i dont know anything other than what the guys from winchester and hornady had mentioned.....i took it at face value...although, hornady would have a reason to put down remington...just dont know that they would

[dubber123]

I have another suggestion, as you are a reloader.  Trim your brass.  You will have to rework your loads if you trim off any serious amount but it works.  I bought a custom mold in 440 gr. wide flat nose for my Sharps replica 45-70.  My gun has a really long throat, so no problem.  Tried them in my brothers Marlin guide gun, wouldn't chamber.  We simply trimmed his brass until overall length was suitable and presto!  This has worked great for several years now.  If it wasn't for the fact that this particular bullet shoots into one hole at 50 yds. (and I own the mold), we wouldn't have bothered.  If you have a bullet that you really like, don't overlook this simple solution.

[woodswatcher]

i dunno about the timber carbines..but i have a .444 big bore XTR full size 94 and it has fast become my bread and butter rifle.

probably 500-600 rounds so far..not one malfunction. i have XS tritium sights on it..

i cant say enough GOOD THINGS about this rifle.
as far as the 240 remington loads go.. whitetails..wont know the difference. i have shot several with the load and its wicked..

the load got a bad rap YEARS ago..WAYYYY BACK. when pistol bullets were questionable at best.

today pistol bullet metallurgy is vastly different and i would have no problem chasing bigger critters with it.