Author Topic: Marlin (Read 2147 times)

jamaldog87 · « **on:** June 02, 2006, 11:03:10 AM »

which one is good for Cape& water Buffalo ?

the kodiak mark iv double rifle in 9.3x74R, Model 1895M in 450 Marlin or 45/70, 454 or 480 ruger, Handi-Rifle in 500s&w ,Magnum M98 Mauser Rifle in 500 Jeffries or 8mm or 416?

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #1 on:** June 03, 2006, 10:13:13 AM »

Out of the bunch the Mauser in 416 Rigby or 416 Remington is the only one that does it for me. A .375 H&H would do nicely. A 500 Jeffery would be quite a load to handle for most riflemen, really more gun than needed, and quite expensive. A .375 H&H is about minimum for DG; the 9.3x74R is at least 200 fps slower than that. The 8mm is not powerful enough and probably not legal. The others would be a stunt.

Qaz · « **Reply #2 on:** June 05, 2006, 07:07:19 AM »

Sup jamal, The cape buffalo and water buffalo are two different animals and the cape is probably the tougher of the two. The 454, 480 and 500 S&W are all pistol rounds. The 45/70 and 450 Marlin are not legal as the 9.3x 74r may not be. The 416 Rigby and Remington would the best choice of the picks offered.
Now if we are talking ultimate critter getter, I prefer a compound sling shot, shooting a 45cal steel bearing. I have taken down several capes with this set-up. The best way is to shoot them in each ear, now that they are deaf, sneak up on them and tip them over and cut their throat with a Stanley # 10-099 box cutter. They bleed out very quickly and once tipped over, they are as gentle as a lamb. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

Qaz

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 05, 2006, 11:50:59 AM »

:-D :-D :-D you got me.iam not going hunt for them right now but just was looking for something that might do for the biggest so i could just get one gun.(The 454, 480 and 500 S&W are all pistol rounds. The 45/70 and 450 Marlin are not legal as the 9.3x 74r may not be. ) there not legal there

all well i will just not get my 454 then.

Downeaster · « **Reply #4 on:** July 18, 2006, 10:01:51 AM »

If the 45/70 or 450 Marlin are legal, I think they could handle most game in Africa (exception for Elephant and Rhino - maybe) as long as the following type of loads are used:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#450M

Tell me those can't handle African dangerous game - please

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #5 on:** July 19, 2006, 09:03:14 AM »

They can't, except for a stunt.

Downeaster · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2006, 04:14:51 AM »

ExoLucius says:

They can't, except for a stunt.

You don't think a 300 grain expanding slug at 2350fps with 3678 ftlbs of muzzle energy or a 405 grain expanding bullet at 2000fps with 3597 ftlbs could stop a lion in its tracks? I would understand your opinion regarding using a 45/70 on Cape Buffalo, Rhino or Elephant but not Lion or Leopard.

A properly loaded 45/70 or 450 Marlin (with the right loads) can take out a Grizzly Bear. An angry Grizzly is tougher to kill than a Lion and nearly as quick.

Maybe there is a little snobery concerning bigbore leverguns that the average working man can afford and these expensive bolt guns/doubles that are way beyond the budget of Joe Sixpack.

JJHACK · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2006, 05:31:06 AM »

Please don't confuse the speed or killing ability of a lion with the speed or killing ability of a griz. You folks can debate the silly attributes of the 45/70 til the cows come home for all I care, but this debate I have lived through most of my adult life!

I've worked hunting both species mentioned and the difference in speed is like comparing a st bernard to a grey hound. The difference in massive instant destruction of tissue is equally different.

Strength is equal if body weight is equal. Seeing a 350lb lion tackle a cape buffalo and drag it down is as impressive as anything I've ever witnessed in my life. I doubt a bear could catch a cape bufflao much less drag it down as easily.

Claws.........no contest lions claws are sharp and hook shaped. Grizzly claws although long are at best a dull or blunt tip.

Speed........No contest at all, a lion will blow away any bear alive for 100-200 yards,

Teeth and biting power........Again lions have much bigger teeth and far greater biting power.
As an animal designed by God as a pure hunter and killer of big game. Designed entirely to chase and kill and eat only meat,...... the Omnivore bear cannot compete with the biting abiltiy or pure killing skill of a lion.

Endurance........Bears clearly have a much more relentless persuit then a lion. Lions will give up the chase after a couple hundred yards. I have watched a grizzly chase caribou a mile across the tundra before giving up.

Where the bear wins everytime is in Endurance and difficulty to crumple. Also in functional blood trails. I doubt any lion alive could kill a big grizzly in a fight. But a lion will be on you( a human) and kill you much faster then a grizzly would, .........at least from what I have seen, and experienced myself.

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2006, 08:25:05 AM »

i know someone that a bear got on him and crashed the barrel and stock of his gun like it was a paper cup. now i don't know if a lion can do that or not but i would hunt a lion with debate on the power than hunt a bear with that. and lions are pack hunters and one lion can't kill as big as game as one bear.

JJHACK · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2006, 09:06:05 AM »

This debate is going to get silly, but for the sake of just one more post on this, whats your first hand visual experience with what you have seen a grizzly bear kill? What have you watched a lion kill?

What big animals do bears kill every week year round for food? What do those animals weigh?

Do you have a real idea about what your suggesting or just passing the time here with a "feeling" about this that you want to believe?

What animals do Grizzly bears( not brown bears) hunt and kill that regularly weigh 1500 pounds? Don't even suggest a bull moose because unless it's already dying they are not going to even attempt that as a regular practice, or even once in 100 grizzly lifetimes! caribou absolutely, Young being born for sure, adult healthy big game like a moose..........not a chance with the very rarest of exceptions and then I might give the moose equal odds while on his feet. When a Hoofed animal falls the predator wins. Hoofed game has no wrist so they have extreme difficulty getting back to their feet unless they can "jump" up. With the weight of a large predator on them or being held by the nose they are stuck without being able to get back up. However the kicking ability of hooked game when down it vicious and will kill or fatally injure anything it can get a hoof into.

What else is there? that big within the habitat they live in?

Lets see here now, Lions feed on Buffalo, 1500 pounds, Eland 2000 pounds, Sable, Roan, 1000 lbs the young of anything they can catch like Rhino Giraffe, hippo, etc. These animals even when young are still 1000 pounds.

These are not rare events but what takes place week in and week out. They don't dig for rodents, eat salmon, or berries. They are purely hunters of big animals. Only the Tiger is a bigger more powerful predator on this planet.Tiger will go 800 pounds, A normal male lion will be 400-450 a huge lion over 500. Females about 250-300lbs, some possibly bigger.

This is an animal that is average black bear sized compared to a much larger 600-800pound grizzly bear.

Please.............this is not even a debate! Live among both and watch them work.........you would be ashamed to have even made this statement once you did!

Downeaster · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:31:57 AM »

Jhack,

I'm not going to argue with you, I wouldn't want a lion bearing down on me. They are fantastic predators. Of course, I wouldn't want a Mr. Grizzly out to knock my head off either.

As you are a PH and experienced African hunter, I'll take your word for it. Truth is, as much as I love a Marlin 45/70, and I do think it is capable, there are better choices, without a doubt. I think a 375 HH would be my general choice, if I had the money to go on safari in Africa (except for Cape Buffalo, Rhino or elephant). In that case, a 458 Lott would probably be in order.

lgstraub · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:02:41 PM »

JJHACK

Can you tell me were to find the laws reguarding calibers legal for dangours game and in which countrys thay can be used. I am going to be hunting Cape Buffalo in northern RSA on the Zimbabwae border.Any help will be appriciated,

JJHACK · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:03:40 PM »

I've had hunters shoot all the above with a 375HH and none struggled. I carry a 458 Lott as my backup gun but if I were given the choice to hunt with I would take the 375HH for it's easy shot placement, and very fast follow ups.

My use of the lott is typically while ready for trouble before it happens with the hunter shooting and me ready for a problem. That's a whole lot different then daydreaming and having trouble to deal with in an instant. Then add to that a quick follow up.

The Lott is a whole bunch of power, on both ends. It's accurate and shootable but it's far from "surgical" the way the 375HH is. I can call my shots with the 375HH everytime. I can get close with the lott, but I'm nowhere near as accurate with the Lott as I am with the 375HH.

Given the opportunity for one perfectly placed shot on a big animal( while hunting), I'll make that happen with the 375HH 100%, I probably will with the Lott.

There is a big difference between 100% and Proabably where Dangerous game is involved!

JJHACK · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:21:18 PM »

removed for new thread

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2006, 11:18:30 AM »

i see your point. well when i do go (in 5 years maybe) i will have the 458 win mag for what there is. i am looking at something like the Model 70, Safari Express or a remington 798.

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #15 on:** July 24, 2006, 10:44:01 AM »

Quote from: Downeaster on July 18, 2006, 10:01:51 AM

If the 45/70 or 450 Marlin are legal, I think they could handle most game in Africa (exception for Elephant and Rhino - maybe) as long as the following type of loads are used:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#450M

Tell me those can't handle African dangerous game - please

Here's a quote from the Zimbabwe Regs

Quote

The Third Schedule Of The Firearms Act

This states a calibre of no less than 9.2mm in diameter with muzzle energy of 5.3 kilojoules is required for Elephant, Buffalo and Hippo.
A calibre of no less than 7mm in diameter with a muzzle energy of no less than 4.3 kilojoules is required for Lion, Giraffe and Eland.
A calibre of no less than 7mm in diameter with muzzle energy of no less than 3 kilojoules is required for Crocodile, Hyaena, Kudu, Leopard, Nyala, Sable, Waterbuck, Wildebeest, Zebra, etc.
A calibre of no less than 5.6mm with muzzle energy of 850 joules is required for Bushbuck, Bushpig, Impala, Reedbuck, Warthog.

So the 45/70, 450 Marlin, et al. doesn't meet the requirement for elephant, cape buffalo or hippo (also known as illegal). Does for lion, giraffe and eland.

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 24, 2006, 11:31:02 AM »

what about the 338 win.mag for lions? Roy weatherby kill a lion with a 300 eby.mag back in 1970 and with loads from Federal like the high energy and Hornady heavy mag you can get 375H&H power out of the 338win.mag(338win.mag from Federal at 4350 muzzle energy with a trophy bonded bear claw bullet and 375H&H from remington at 4337 muzzle energy with a soft point bullet.) and i did some reading in americanhunter and they say that for brown/grizzly bear in alaska a 338win.mag is the minimum and the 375H&H being what thay would use.

JJHACK · « **Reply #17 on:** July 24, 2006, 11:53:58 AM »

Alaska does not have a legal minimum stated anyplace for any species

A cape buffalo is by a large margin a bigger and more solid built animal then a Brown bear. Brown bears are thin through the shoulders and much softer Muscles tissue. It would be like comparing an inflated truck innertube to the tread of the tire itself. I've seen several bullets from a 375JDJ shoot clean through a Brown bear, That's a 260 grain Nosler partition at 2000 fps MV. No chance in hell that would ever happen on a cape buffalo shot the same way.

Vegetarian animals are typically harder and more solidly constructed then predators/omnivores. Hogs being the only exception that comes to mind. I suspect a Brownie could get to 1500lbs. but it would be the exception. I know people talk about 2000lb bears but they are usually "talk" not based in any reality where an official scale is concerned.

The Lincoln Park zoo in Chicago has (had?) a brown bear that is exactly 2000 lbs. It's in the Guiness record book. It is so huge and fat it would be unable to live in the wild. It has difficulty walking normally. I have never seen any bear living wild that was even close to that giant pig. Wild bears are not even clsoe to this one that go into hibernation with full fat layers. If a scale were brought into the field that could weigh them I would guess an absolute monster 10 foot bear would be 1200 pounds or so. On average they more likely weight in the 800-1000 lb range.

akpls · « **Reply #18 on:** July 24, 2006, 12:46:13 PM »

Quote from: JJHACK on July 24, 2006, 11:53:58 AM

Alaska does not have a legal minimum stated anyplace for any species

Except for bison as stated, "Rifles must fire a minimum 200 grain bullet having 2000 ft-lbs. or more energy retained at 100 yards."

JJHACK · « **Reply #19 on:** July 24, 2006, 01:50:25 PM »

That's hysterical, the lowley bison gets a minimum but the biggest meat eating beast on earth does not! What a planet we live on!

akpls · « **Reply #20 on:** July 25, 2006, 10:49:30 AM »

Quote from: JJHACK on July 24, 2006, 01:50:25 PM

That's hysterical, the lowley bison gets a minimum but the biggest meat eating beast on earth does not! What a planet we live on!

You'll get no argument from me on that one!

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 25, 2006, 12:58:05 PM »

yeah but what about the 338 win.mag for plains game or lions? also do you know the cost of a lion hunt or plains game? i had a hard time find some online and i think it would cost less and be easy to get a plains game or lion hunt than a cape buffalo hunt.

JJHACK · « **Reply #22 on:** July 25, 2006, 01:11:42 PM »

At the bottom of every single post I have there is a link to a website with all the Plains game costs and more information then you would likely need at this stage.

Typical Plains game hunt for a couple weeks and 4-6 animals with airfare: 7000
Typical Male lion hunt in RSA 18k Zimbabwe 25K Tanzania: 40k All with airfare
Typical Buffalo hunt in RSA 12K, Zimbabwe 9-10K, Tanzania 15K, Botswana 20K, All with airfare

There are a lot of incedentals people don't talk about when costs are involved. What is posted here comes from years of experience in this business

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 25, 2006, 01:26:52 PM »

thanks, now that i see the cost plains game is what i will save up for. and the 338 should do it.

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 27, 2006, 12:48:07 PM »

i looked at the 338win. mag and there is too much recoil from them so i looked at these two. the Remington MODEL 710 or the savage arms Model 111FCXP3 in 300 win.mag. are they good cal. for most plains game? and is a LimbSaver™ Recoil Pad or HiViz XCoil™ Recoil Pad good to stop the recoil and is the 300win.mag,30-06 Spfld, 7MM REM MAG better?

akpls · « **Reply #25 on:** July 28, 2006, 07:45:02 PM »

The 300 may not be any better for you than the 338 if you're recoil-sensitive. There is plenty of plains game taken with the 30-06 and that may be a better choice for you.

JJHACK · « **Reply #26 on:** July 29, 2006, 05:10:24 AM »

If there was any doubt just read this post

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,93778.0.html

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 29, 2006, 10:07:18 AM »

thanks guys, you are very helpful to new hunters. someone had ask the same thing in outdoor life some years back and the saided the 30/06 was the best for recoil-sensitive shooters. when i save-up to go in 5-10 years i will get the the savage arms Model 111FCXP3 because it cost a little less. i might even get my high powered airgun for some small game there( WINCHESTER 1000 SB can kill pdog out to 100 yards, crosman 2200.)