Author Topic: Preadators and the demise of quail.  (Read 740 times)

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Offline james

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Preadators and the demise of quail.
« on: August 04, 2006, 06:23:58 AM »
I have noticed quail are becoming as scarce as farmers.  When I was a lad in  NW Arkansas, quail were abundant and I had many enjoyable days quail hunting.  I raised and trained bird dogs until the mid 80s. Most farmers had a loaded gun behind the door or in their truck, to protect their poultry and livestock.  While protecting their domestic animals, they were reducing the preditation on quail.  Predators were shot on sight as the opporitunity presented itself.  Coyotes, bobcats, foxes,  crows, skunks and raccoons are now protected most of the year.    And you can never shoot hawks, owls, snakes, or quail. The latter is because there is none left. There is still  a quail season in the hunting regulations but there might as well be an Ivory billed woodpecker season!   The biologists keep saying its a "loss of habitat".  Well, H-LL yes its a loss of habitat, because there's a predator behind every tree.   - just my opinion.

Offline oso45-70

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2006, 06:44:57 AM »

James, I don't know about your area but in a lot of the country where quail are found or used to be found the biggest predator is the common house cat. I was reading something the other day how the house cat was taking over as the most prolific predator throughout the United States and i belive that to be true. People who live in town and want to get rid of their cats load them up and give them a nice ride in the country and turn them loose.
Most of these people don't hunt so they have no idea how much damage the cats can do. All i can say is when you see one please do your part in saving the quail population ;)...........Joe........
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Offline onecoyote

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2006, 08:09:45 AM »
Oso45-70, I have to agree with you. Coyotes, bobcats, fox and the rest have been living with quail LONG before man was ever here, and I'm sure they had lots of quail 30,000 years ago.

I don't think they ( natural predators ) are in the big picture when it comes to quail problems, sure they take a few especially bobcats.

Quail have been on a downsizing mode for years all across the western U.S.. Some of it can be attributed to loss of habitat, but I think the problem is even worse then that.

Like you, I believe the house cat has put a huge dent in the quail population across this country, just another scurge man has brought upon himself.

James, you cant shoot snakes in Arkansas? Skunks are protected? You guys didn't get rid of Clinton & Gore fast enough lol .
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Offline lewdogg21

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2006, 08:13:34 AM »
I have never shot a house cat but I keep my benjamin sheridan pellet gun in the garage in the event I'm out there and one of the let loose or feral kitties comes by.  I live in a condo with a detached garage so silence & secrecy is of the key or I might get hauled off to jail.

The big male that sprays my front door was in range the other night but he turned and went with the shrubs rather than expose himself.  grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Offline james

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2006, 09:54:17 AM »
I consider stray house cats a predator/varmint with no season and a verrrry large bag limit.
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Offline onecoyote

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2006, 10:31:05 AM »
Since our town dog catcher is 80 years old and can't even catch a cold, I do it myself. I bought a live trap, this last year I caught over 30 house "wild" cats.
If your a tree hugging animal lover, don't ask what I did with them.
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Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2006, 04:20:57 PM »
I've had the very same conversation with the game wardens and state biologist about both quail and rabbit.  They tell me there's plenty of rabbits.........they also say hawks and owls are endangered.........yesterday morning the wife and I had coffee on the back deck and watched 3 hawks try to nail a baby squirrell..........Got plenty of owls too......so, I guess there endangered somewhere, but it sure ain't aroung here!

 I commend them for the job they've done on deer and turkey.   In there eyes what's good for deer and turkey is good for small game as they share the same habitat right?

I think there are several reasons for the decline of small game.  The biggest is Kentucky 31 fescue......it's replaced most of the native grasses and has almost no nutritional value......just fodder.......birds of prey are also a problem and a great horned owl will get 2 rabbits per night.  Coyote's are very common now and were never seen in the 1960's, at least not around here.......same with bob cats.....

I hunted a farm one year and our party killed 18 rabbits......we skipped a year and hunted it again and only killed 3.  When we got ready to leave the farmer pulled up and asked how we did.......we talked awhile and he said a family of no less than 6 bobcats had moved in.

House cats are another big problem.

Another problem is there is no money in small game.......hunting and fishing are licensed togather.....pay another fee for archery, and again for muzzle loader and rifle big game..........

Many of the local beagle clubs have asked the state to split the fishing and hunting as the state says not very many people hunt small game....they say there's no interest in it.  By splitting the small game license off from a fishing license they could tell just how many small game hunters there are.

I could walk up sevaral coveys of quail and kill a limit of rabbits without dogs in the 60's.....I haven't gotten up a covey of birds in so long that I can't remember........seldom kill a limit of rabbits now even with dogs........

It's a shame isn't it?
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Offline CyberSniper

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2006, 07:42:37 AM »
In this area ( South Texas ) the biggest problems would be:
1. Fire Ants
2. Feral Hogs
3. Feral house cats
4. Droughts
Not sure in which order, but the quail have also become rare in many
areas around here.
In Medina county, north of Hondo, we saw a pair of quail 2 years ago.
Haven't seen any since.

Offline onecoyote

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2006, 11:18:43 AM »
Well heck, I guess I could say I've been a varmint hunter since the 50s maybe even the late 40s as I use to shoot jack rabbits with a single shot 22, a JC Higgens I think.

I can remember seeing huge coveys of quail back then, I can remember seeing quail all over the boulders talking to each other. I can remember a half a hill explode with quail flying everywhere. If I went back to those places today and there was many of them, it would be all houses roads and cars.

Funny thing is, many of the people that live in those places are animal rights people and tree huggers. So missinformed and so stupid that they don't even realise they are a huge part of the porblem that they try to blame on hunters.
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Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2006, 02:45:38 AM »
I think another thing that's hurting us is fence row to fence row farming.........most fence rows are clean as a whistle around here........
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2006, 05:13:41 AM »
I think everything posted is all a part of the problem. 

Its my understanding that owls and hawks have never been endangered (forgetting for a moment about the DDT problems) but raptors in general were protected because an immature Bald Eagle looks like a hawk and that was what was endangered.

Offline The Sodbuster

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2006, 06:49:34 AM »
It's not predators so much as habitat.  Kill all the fox and raccoons and what happens?  Skunks and snakes just eat that many more eggs and chicks.  Every predator out there will eat quail or their eggs.  Get rid of one kind and another will take up the slack.  You know what eats more snakes than any other predator?  Red-tailed hawks.  You know what like to kill fox?  Coyotes.  In decent habitat a quail hen can raise 2-3 broods per year.  Most nests will fail or young die.  If that happens, she'll likely renest.  That's just how it is being at the bottom of the food chain.  But if they have the proper nesting, brood, roosting and escape covers, quail will prosper.  Hard winters or cold, wet springs can set them back a year or two; but they'll recover if the habitat is good, regardless of predators.

VictorCharlie hit it on the head when he brought up tall fescue.  Worthless for quail and it's everywhere.  And those brushy fence rows you remember from when you were a kid.  If they're still around, they're old or mature timber now.  Good for deer and turkey but of no use to quail.  They like low, brushy cover.  Stuff you hate to try and walk through, like blackberries, rose, or plum and dogwood thickets.  An oak woodlot with a bit of sumac on the edge ain't gonna cut it. 

Farming's changed.  Around here it's mostly fescue pasture and hay, corn and beans.  Not much small grains or lespedeza and with commercial fertilizers, there's no need to let fields idle for a year.  A piece of ground left idle will come in with all manner of annual forbs that are ideal for quail.  They provide seed and insects they need to eat.  There's overhead, vegetative cover to offer protection, and bare ground between the plant stems for the young chicks to get around through.  Chicks can't walk through fescue or other sod forming grasses.  In addition, fescue doesn't have many insects, and chicks need the protein in insects to grow.

Oh yeah, kill all the cats too.

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2006, 01:35:59 PM »
No doubt a complex problem..........but if the money was there then the state would make sure we had plenty..........Tennessee collects fees like crazy for big game and because the fees aren't there they tend to negelect small game.
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Offline kyote

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2006, 08:07:01 AM »
around these parts,the road runner is a keen killer of the Quail.along with everything else that has been mentioned.
my huntin rifle is safe from confiscation only while my battle rifle protects it.

Offline onecoyote

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2006, 10:05:02 AM »
Thinking about all this, I don't ever remember seeing a RK quail? But I have seen RK'd coyotes, bobcats, fox, badgers, antelope, deer, elk etc. We can't blame it on cars and trucks lol.
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Offline Ranger J

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2006, 10:30:24 AM »
Most of the problems involving the numbers of quail and rabbits could be solved by an increase in the right kind of habitat.  Both species prefer border habitats, that they don’t like the mature woods and they can’t thrive in a pasture of fescue.  In the past there were areas where the forest feathered out into the cropland.  Probably the greatest thing for quail and rabbits was the Osage orange hedge.  How long has it been since you saw one of those?  For that matter how long has it been since you have seen any kind of wide grown up area between fields of grain?  Years ago the area where I grew up, Southern Illinois, was an area of small farms of maybe a quarter section of land or so.  Plenty of fence rows and brushy areas in gullies and around small creeks, plenty of small game.  Today in the same area the farms have doubled or tripled in size and to make a farm pay the farmer has to cultivate every square inch of land that he can.  Quail can’t live in a bean field or a mature forest.  They may use those areas at times but they need wide areas of low cover to hide in from all the predators.  A quail is the animal equivalent of a big Mac, everyone likes one.   If there is little acceptable cover in an area, yes, predators will get most of them.   As someone said they have a high reproduction rate and given an area with cover and food they can rebound in a hurry.  Unfortunately without government or private intervention I don’t see that happening.  If we want lots of quail we probably need to make ‘raising quail’ profitable to the land owner.
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Offline S.S.

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2006, 06:50:31 AM »
Fire Ants Are the main Culprit.
It isn,t just quail. Rabbits are on the decline in
Georgia as are a couple of other ground nesting birds.
They are killing the young in the nests.
Reptiles are being affected by them as well.
Eastern Box-Turtles, King snakes and the Eastern Green Snake
are getting to where you very seldom encounter them in West Ga.
I think the Fire ants are doing more to damage the Southern Eco-System
than polution from cars are (No Joke intended) .
They are now becoming resistant to many over the counter insecticides also.
These things are geting to be like a modern plague.
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Offline Siskiyou

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2006, 08:02:13 AM »
I must join the group pointing a finger at the common house cat, and it need not be a feral cat.  It can be your cat, or your neighbor’s cat doing the damage.

One late spring morning I watch a couple of hen turkeys and large a hatch march across the back of my place.  A movement about fifty feet behind the birds caught my attention.  It was a large cat putting a sneak on the birds.  I put a sneak on the cat and scared it away.  But I am sure that was a short-lived victory.  Three months later that flock of turkeys was down from around thirty birds to six or seven birds.

The common house cat strays some distance from home.  Some stray more then a mile.  While dog owners are held accountable and pay license fees most cat owners escape the responsibility of ownership.  A neighbor who was traumatized by the death of her dog which was run over do to her neglect went to the Pound and came home with six cats.  Those cats were all over my place and the neighborhood. 

One cool morning I watch a Mountain Quail strut down our back walk.  He was a beautiful bird.  A few days later I found a pile of feathers in back.  He had become prey.

When the responsible cat owner moved away she only moved four cats, the other two became strays.

At one time my daughter had a cat that would bring in jackrabbits.  At the time we thought it was a good deal because it kept the rabbits out of the gardens.  But how many birds became victim to that cat.  Our cat!

I think I will take up a new sport.  The first step is to contact County Animal Control and advise that I am having a problem with stray cats and ask them that if I live catch them can I turn them over to the Pound without cost.  Or the alternative is that they cat catch the cats.  If a plan needs to be put into action I do have a plan.  My Mother-in-law is very good at catching stray cats.
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Offline kyote

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Re: Preadators and the demise of quail.
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2006, 02:32:16 PM »
these fire ants are interesting,they are here in n.m. that is for sure.But I mostly see them in grass yards and not out in the desert.they seem to be closer to towns and communitys here in the U.S..out in the remote ares I just can not recall seeing any.But that does not mean it is thata way in other area's.central america they were every were.and they were killers.the nest were huge.
the quail hunters I have talked with say the bob cat is the killer of quail in this state.and they hate the bob cat.
I have seen on more then one occasion the ole road runner stalk the baby quail and ambush em.I have seen several road runner herd a momma and her chicks in to the beaks of others.I have to love road runners as they are the state bird.
my huntin rifle is safe from confiscation only while my battle rifle protects it.