Author Topic: Problem solved or bigger problem? (Read 784 times)

tvc15 · « **on:** July 23, 2006, 04:27:08 AM »

My .270 has an extremely tight chamber. After fl resizing the bolt is still very tight. I resolved this issue by turning the die 1/2 turn past the point where the shell holder meets the die, Now the bolt is very smooth.
My concearn now is that I have to much head space. Have I ruined the brass? Would you go ahead and shoot these rounds? If I pull these rounds can I resize the brass? what to do.
Thanks in advance, TVC15

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2006, 04:37:19 AM »

When FL sizing rifle cases it's important to screw the die into the press beyond just touching the shellholder. WHY Even high end presses can have quite a bit of upward flex when sizing rifle cases. So what you can end up with is a case that isn't quite FL sized and therefore difficult to chamber. When FL sizing is desires it's always a good Idea to run the die into the press just beyond touching the shellholder by a partial turn.

tvc15 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2006, 04:41:29 AM »

So are you saying what I did was a good thing??

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2006, 05:05:28 AM »

Let me put it this way. Unless a sizing die is cut wrong it should be impossible to FL size a cartrige too much.

Chuck White · « **Reply #4 on:** July 23, 2006, 09:15:13 AM »

tvc15
Actually, what you did when you screwed the die down further was "full-length" resizing!

Before, what you were doing is referred to as "partial" resizing!

BCB · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2006, 10:19:44 AM »

tvc15,

I believe the instructions for adjusting a full-length sizing die are to adjust the sizing die to just touch the shell holder when the ram is at its highest point. Then you are to turn the die just “a bit” farther down. This causes the “cam-over” you are talking about. I have 2 Model 70’s and they require this much resizing of the brass to get them to chamber, and then the bolt does not close easily. I don’t really like to adjust my dies as I indicated and the way you are doing it. There just seems to be something wrong with metal meeting metal and then causing it to be forced even tighter together to allow the lever to go to the bottom position. This has to cause metal fatigue somewhere in the press system. I just ground 0.001” off of the top of the shell holder and this allows the bottom of the die to touch the holder and not have excessive force necessary to gain the extra sizing action when metal touches metal. If you try this, start with the 0.001” and try sizing a case. You may need to remove more than a thousandth. Regardless, that is my preference. Good-luck…BCB

tvc15 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2006, 11:14:49 AM »

Now that seems logical. I can't understand the idea how you can force the brass any further into the die than where the shell holder meets the die. There must be some play there or it obviously wouldn't make a difference in the chambering. TVC15

Bullseye · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2006, 05:08:45 PM »

RCBS says to touch the shellholder and then lower the die a bit more. Redding says to just touch the shellholder with the die. So the procedure might depend on what brand of dies you are using. I just touch the shellholder with Redding dies and have never had the issue. With the RCBS I cam-over the press like they say and I also have never had the issue.

PaulS · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2006, 06:52:04 PM »

I have heard for years reloaders talk about having to full length size their cases to get them to chamber.

Let me ask you a question;
Did you pull that case out of the same chamber after firing it?
What makes it grow between the time you pull it out and when you try to put it back in?

If you pull the case out and put it right back in does it fit? yes, it does - it will chamber easily if it came out that way.
If you partially size it and it doesn't fit then there is something wrong with your technique - you are changing the dimensions with what you are doing. I find that I have to clean and lube the inside of my necks or the shoulder is pushed out and then drawn forward when I neck sized. They wouldn't fit! but if I clean and lube them - Surprise! they fit!

If it was sticky coming out then you are shooting loads that are too hot.
Those cases you will have to full length size to get the brass back in place and you will be trimming them a lot too because all that brass is moving around making your cases longer and fatter than your chamber.
That's right - your chamber stretches with the excessive pressure and your cases stick because they are too big for the chamber. Once you pull them out they don't fit because they stretched beyond their elastic limits.

So, try putting fired, unsized cases back into your gun. If they fit but then don't after you neck size you need to change your technique not full length size.

Chuck White · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2006, 07:40:09 AM »

Quote from: Chuck White on July 23, 2006, 09:15:13 AM

tvc15
Actually, what you did when you screwed the die down further was "full-length" resizing!

Before, what you were doing is referred to as "partial" resizing!

Hey guys, the difference is like I described above!
When the die is just screwed down until it touches the shell holder it is called PARTIAL RESIZING!
When the die is screwed down until it touches the shell holder and then you lower the ram and screw the die in a little further it is called FULL LENGTH RESIZING!

tvc15 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2006, 10:57:48 AM »

Thanks for all the great info. Everything makes sense. I am not shooting hot loads and the brass is not sticky after being fired. So It must be something I'm doing.
I have some old S&B brassd that was tight going in. So I will try to use your methods and figure it out.
My main concearn was that I had pushed the shoulder back and created to much head space. I guess everyone feels like this is not likely so I'll shoot em up. TVC15

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #11 on:** July 24, 2006, 12:56:09 PM »

Quote

I have some old S&B brassd that was tight going in. So I will try to use your methods and figure it out.

WOAH!
Going in where? The rifle or the die. Every S&B rifle case I've tried to reload always had a shallow primer pocket causing a protruding primer wich made for difficult chambering.

trotterlg · « **Reply #12 on:** July 24, 2006, 05:10:23 PM »

No matter how hard you turn down the sizing die you will never get it to shorten a piece of brass shorter than it is designed to. The press is just flexing enough to let you have brass that is too long. A good tight cam over at the bottom of the sizing stroke is the only way you can be sure that you are getting a full length size, as mentioned above, any thing less is not a full length size. Larry

tvc15 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 25, 2006, 10:55:45 AM »

The S&B brass is tight when closing the bolt. I haveen't had a problem with the primers. I use CCI 200 primers and always check to see that they are below flush.
I went ahead and ran the spent S&B brass into the rifle and the bolt was tight. So i ran the sizer die 1/4 turn past the point where the die touched and put it back into the rifle, It felt smooth as could be.
Looking back I guess I should "full length" resize all the brass and "partial" resize the brass from that point on.
Thanks, TVC15

BCB · « **Reply #14 on:** July 26, 2006, 12:04:01 PM »

Just curious--If a person uses the same brass in the same rifle, it will NEVER have to be sized again since it gets no bigger than the chamber and it can be removed easily???

Also, I wonder why they make a "small base sizer die" if a case never grows inside a chamber unless high pressures are acquired???

BCB

Don Fischer · « **Reply #15 on:** July 26, 2006, 12:12:35 PM »

You will find that the case will, with a few fireings, fit the chamber so closely that it will become hard to chamber. When that happens, eject the case and look at the headstamp. You'll probally see where the bolt face is rubbing the case. Thats why it chambers hard or not at all.

BCB · « **Reply #16 on:** July 26, 2006, 01:38:35 PM »

You are indeed correct Don. That is why we have sizing dies! One will also see bright marks on the shoulder as cases are fired and not sized. A very small chamber may need full-length sizing most every time. If setting the die so the press “cams over” does not shorten the case enough to chamber easily, the shoulder can be bumped back by shortening the sizing die. That is done by removing a bit from the bottom of the die OR by removing a bit from the top of the shell holder. The case will be shortened. If anyone has any doubt to that, remove ‘bout 1/8 inch from the top of the shell holder, and your sized case will be super small—as a matter of fact, it will be ruined, or more likely, jammed into the die and stuck!!! I was only using this as an extreme example—don’t remove 1/8 inch from the top of your shell holder!!
As I previously mentioned, I have a couple of 270’s that have chambers so tight that the shortened shell holder is necessary. Or at least it is for my method of reloading…BCB

BruceP · « **Reply #17 on:** July 26, 2006, 02:38:38 PM »

It could also have nothing at all to do with how far down your die is adjusted. (and I'm guessing this is the case) If you are not getting any case lube inside the neck you could be streaching the case as it comes back out over the expander button. When this happens it tends to streach the shoulder at the base of the neck because the shoulder is the part of the case not in line with the direction of pull.
Bruce

PaulS · « **Reply #18 on:** July 26, 2006, 02:49:44 PM »

Don and BCB,

As long as you are not over-stressing the brass with high pressure the elasticity of the brass brings it back to a smaller size than the chamber. Bright spots and marks on the case head are present when the brass is over-stressed and doesn't have the elasticity to return to a size smaller than the case. The pressure that it takes to do this is not the same in all rifles. It does require that the chamber itself stretches. Whether or not maximum listed loads are being fired, the pressures being generated is above the maximum in that specific weapon under those conditions. most bottle-neck cases will need to be trimmed but if you have to trim after each shot I would take it as an indicator that the load is too hot for that rifle.

BCB · « **Reply #19 on:** July 27, 2006, 10:36:26 AM »

This discussion lead me to try a little experiment. It is much more difficult to express oneself in written form then it is to actually talk to someone and use physical examples (or hand and arm movements!), but here goes.
I pick up all of the range brass I can find. And, since the 270 Winchester is a popular cartridge, I have plenty of this once-fired brass in the nice boxes it came in. So, I took 3 pieces of this brass and tried each one in the chamber of one of my Model 70 Winchesters. I did not force the bolt closed. None would chamber although with excessive force, I probably could have got the bolt to close.
I use RCBS dies for this cartridge. I removed the neck expander so as to not stretch the brass during the expanding process. I sized one case with the die set “just touching” the shell holder (a factory shell holder--unchanged dimensions). This sized case would not chamber without some force on the bolt. I then set the sizing die to slightly “cam over” during the sizing operation. This sized case would not chamber easily, yet I could get it to chamber with a bit of force. The shoulder had bright marks on it, as did the first case, where it rubbed the chamber walls when the bolt was slightly turned. I then sized the next case using my shell holder that has had a thousandth or so removed from the top. I screwed the sizing die down to just touch this shell holder. This process will push the shoulder back ever so slightly. I then put it in the chamber and it chambered with little or no effort. There were no bright marks on the shoulder.
I think what happens in some cases, as I described above, is the fact that the chamber might be the correct headspace (length), but the width of the chamber might be excessive, although still within specs. If one thinks about a solid piece of brass that is 3” long and 1” in diameter, maybe this concept can be understood a bit better. If this piece of brass is size to 7/8” diameter, the length must increase—that same amount of brass must go somewhere. Picture the cartridge doing the same thing. Yep, it might fall from the chamber easily after if is fired, BUT, when it is sized, the width would be lessened so the length would get longer. Or you have a case that is too long for a short chamber. That is where trimming a bit off of the shell holder allows the case to enter the sizing die a bit farther, and thus push the shoulder back—no more bright shiny marks on it when the bolt is closed and the round chambered. The difference between the case and the solid piece of brass is the fact that the case can move to a new shape by decreasing the internal volume of the case. Maybe this will help clarify my thoughts on cases not wanting to chamber properly after sizing…BCB

Don Fischer · « **Reply #20 on:** July 27, 2006, 11:28:42 AM »

Not sure I followed that. Swing your arms a bit!

Anyway, reading this it sounds like the to thick shell holder might be the thing. The inside if the full length die should resize the case to specs. The excess brass, if any, should flow thru the neck causing the neck to be trimmed. Now when necks need trimming, it would seem that brass is gettting thin somewhere otherwise, where does the extra brass come from? Probally pulled up out of the shoulder when drawn back over the expander or perhaps it's the neck getting thin. Something has to be getting thin.

The expanding chamber that Paul spoke of may make sense but, if the bolt opens easily after fireing but scrape the headstamp and/or shoulder after neck/partial full sizing, why is that? The cartridge I noticed this the most in was a 7x57. I pretty much gave up neck sizing and partial sizing because of that problem. Never happens with the first and second firing. Usually on the third.

PaulS · « **Reply #21 on:** July 28, 2006, 05:45:00 PM »

BCB,
try your experiment with brass fired from your gun - chamber the brass after firing in the same gun it was fired in. if it doesn't fit then try it with a factory round. see ifthat one fits.
I have only fired one round in my 35 years of hand loading that would not go back into the rifle it was fired from. It was quite obvious that there was too much pressure in that round. The base had even expanded to oversize and the primer pocket was more like a crater.
It sounds like your rifle is one of the very few that have a minimum dimension chamber - but my bet is that factory ammo will rechamber into it after being fired from it. If it takes three firings to keep it from fitting that would tell me that the load was generating pressure at or above the limits for your gun.

Bad Irv · « **Reply #22 on:** August 06, 2006, 03:04:01 PM »

I've gotten the best results ever in my 35 years of reloading for bolt action rifles by using Lee collet neck sizeing dies. I get 4 or 5 firings without any need for full length resizing. Then when the bolt starts to become a bit harder to close, I use a Redding body die to bump the shoulder back, and I'm good for another 4 or 5 reloading cycles. Fire formed brass always seems to shoot better in my rifles. Using this method (and I've tried most of the others), I've found that the brass lasts for a lot longer. I almost never have to trim the brass after the initial trimming on new brass, because the way I resize doesn't work the brass very much. I think that expander plugs are the hardest things on brass life, and I'm glad that I found a way to do away with them.

You can get both the Lee collet dies and the Redding body dies in most calibers at Midway. Both together cost about $40. Well worth it imo. Add some in-line seater dies by Forster or Redding, and you will produce some amazingly accurate rounds.

Irv