pressure in .22-250

[mjbgalt]

is it possible for my vanguard to be approaching max pressures when the load isn't?

50 grain softpoint with 36.5 grains of varget produces a little tougher bolt opening and little shiny patches on the headstamp of the brass but no primer issues other than it looks like the primer "flowed" around the firing pin more than usual because the factory ammo i shot for comparison has a ltitle dent and my reloads are deeper.

the max is listed as 37.5 grains. i shot 37.0 as a comparison for the 36.5 load and it too had those characteristics.

why would my rifle be at maximum pressure when only at 36.5?

strangely, 36.5 shoots about a half inch group and 37.0 is like three inches.

-Matt

[wncchester]

in a word, yes.  You are really pushing the envelope with those loads.  That's why all the manuals warn us that we MUST start lower than their data suggests and only increase as and if  OUR pressure signs permit it.  Your loads do not permit it!

Why?  Well, your chamber or bore may be a bit smaller than theirs.  Your specific lot of Varget may be a bit faster or your primers may be a bit hotter.  Your cases or bullet jackets may be a bit thicker.  You may be seating your bullets into the lands and they did not.  Or a combination of several of these.  Or something esle entirely, etc.  Exactly why they are so hot doesn't really matter but the fact that your loads are extruding brass into the ejector slot does.

With the pressure signs you describe I think it would be wise to lmit your loadss to no more than 36.0 gr., or even a bit less than that, NOW! 

[mjbgalt]

yeah but i am a full grain UNDER the listed max...

-Matt

[mjbgalt]

i am seating a 50 grain Sierra softpoint to an OAL of 2.43" and using Remington primers, Winchester brass, and 36.5 grains of Varget....




does that explain anything more?

-Matt

[mjbgalt]

i blacked the bullet with a marker and ran them through the chamber and looked for marks and it did not appear that it was touching the rifling.

if i play with OAL, wouldn't the accuracy probably suffer?

-Matt

[George Foster]

Matt,

It doesn't matter what the manual says is max it only matters what your rifle says is max.  Every rifle is different and that is why you have to start from below and work up.  If you have access to a chrony you might well find you are getting the book max velocities at the 36.0 or 36.5gr level.  A reloading manual is a guide NOT THE LAST WORD!  The OAL for a 22-250 is 2.350 BTW.

[45/70fan]

Try a different primer or case. As others have posted you have reached max in your rifle. I read an article once where they used a set case, bullet, powder, and charge weight. The only thing they changed was primers. Velocity varied as much as 200 fps. Needless to say pressures varied too.

[Coyote Hunter]

is it possible for my vanguard to be approaching max pressures when the load isn't?

Absolutely, yes.

Every rifle behaves a bit differently.  Test barrels are generally tighter than production barrels and generally produce slightly higher presures - but not always. 

Yours is a perfect example of why I HIGHLY recommend reloaders use chronographs, which are available for as little as $49.95 for a refurb Shooting Chrony (call the factory).

As a general rule, you should approach maximums cautiously and STOP when one of two things occurs - a) you reach the maximum listed powder charge or, b) you reach the maximum listed velocity.  You should always STOP also if you see signs of high pressure, regardless of what the charge or velocity is. Also, be aware that ANY deviation from the load recipe can cause dramatic changes in pressure.   If you have changed the manufacturer for the brass or primer from that specified by the recipe, be extra cautious.  Changing the brand of bullet can also make a considerable difference, although I find this less of a problem in most cases. Different lots of powder and/or primer can - and often do - have a significant effect as well.  Again, a chronograph is HIGHLY recommended.

Over the years I have found that some loads reach maximum listed velocity well before I reach maximum listed powder charges.  Other times I have found I couldn't overcharge the case enough to reach maximum listed velocity (ar anything near it) even if I wanted to because I run out of powder room in the case first. 

For what it is worth, my powder charge is 35.0g Varget for 50g V-MAX bullets, Federal brass, CCI 250 primer..

[mjbgalt]

so if i shot a group that was close to a half inch...but a whole bunch of groups from 34.5 to 37.0 that went all over the place...should i assume i can leave the OAL alone and then go to a different bullet? i just bought 1000 remington primers and i would like to use them, as they make my .243 a tack driver, and i wanted to use the same primers.

also, is a different bullet going to make that much of a difference? if i use, say, a V-MAX, is the diameter different in some way as to make pressures less?

i have loaded for many different rifles and never had a problem when operating in a normal range in listed parameters.

-Matt

[Bad Irv]

Hi Matt. I doubt that the Remington primers are the problem. Remington primers are, as a rule, some of the mildest and most consistent primers that you can buy. It is most probable that that rifle is producing very high velocity along with the increased presure. I've got a Savage 12 FV 22-250 that does the same thing. Nothing wrong with that, you still get the performance and save some powder. Like the guys say, a chronograph is the only way to know what's going on for sure.

Irv

[mjbgalt]

a guy i talked to today said if all i had were the little bright spots, the load was probably ok. but it isn't HIS gun, it's mine lol.

I am going to seat the bullet deeper in the case, because that seems to be the most likely thing causing this. typical .22-250 ammo is set at 2.35" and mine is 2.43" and i think it may be causing the problem. however it isn't touching the lands so...hmmm...

will report back tomorrow.

-Matt

[mjbgalt]

i loaded 35.5, 36, 36.5, and 36.2 and seated them to 2.37."

i checked my factory ammo and sure enough, it is 2.35." however just to be ridiculous i seated one to 2.57" and it STILL does not touch the lands.

so what's the deal here? does my vanguard have 4" of freebore or what?! lol

i will shoot again tomorrow and see what the heck happens then.

-Matt

[JD11]

Assuming the Vanguards and Howas are the same as others say, I seat my Sierras (50 and 55gr) so my OAL is 2.500.  Measuring to the lands three times to triple check, I make contact with the rifling at 2.530 but the bullet is then seated out to far.   Most of the "big boys" say your bullet should be seated at least as deep as the diameter of the bullet which makes sense to me so that's what I do, give or take a few thousands.  According to my notes, the 2.530 contact length was with a 55 grain Sierra Blitzking, 22-250 Howa Varminter Supreme heavy barrel.   

[JD11]

Assuming the Vanguards and Howas are the same as others say, I seat my Sierras (50 and 55gr) so my OAL is 2.500.  Measuring to the lands three times to triple check, I make contact with the rifling at 2.530 but the bullet is then seated out to far.   Most of the "big boys" say your bullet should be seated at least as deep as the diameter of the bullet which makes sense to me so that's what I do, give or take a few thousands.  According to my notes, the 2.530 contact length was with a 55 grain Sierra Blitzking, 22-250 Howa Varminter Supreme heavy barrel.   

I've shot a max of 36 grains of Varget with 50gr. Sierras with no signs of excess pressure, but like posted every rifle's different.  Mine seems to like 34.5 or 34.7gr. Varget best groupwise.

[mjbgalt]

showed a long-time reloader at the range...i think i might have been worried for no reason...he said it did not look like too much pressure...he noticed the things i noticed but said they weren't signs of pressure being dangerous...

-Matt

[PaulS]

Matt,

After reading this thread post by post I would not trust the opinion of the "guy at the range" .
You felt more than normal lift pressure was necessary when using the load which was within 1.0 grains of maximum listed load.

It is possible for a gun to produce higher than "normal" pressures before reaching the maximum listed load. Your gun and ammo may be just enough different than the test weapon and load that a given powder and load combination could produce pressures over SAAMI standards. Temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, loading and shooting technique can all change the way a given load works. You couls have a tighter chamber or barrel which would increase pressure. That load manual tells you to never exceed a listed maximum load but it also warns you that if you find signs of excessive pressure to back off and use a load less than the one that shows signs of excessive pressure. Believe your gun. Heavier than normal lift, bright spots in the case head, primers deformed and erratic accuracy following good accuracy are all signs of excessive pressure and when they all occur with one load jump then you can be fairly certain that you have exceeded the maximum load for your gun. You would be smart and dollars ahead if you just go back to the load that gave you the best accuracy. The load may not blow your gun apart but even small amounts of excessive pressure are likely to damage the gun. Throat erosion, barrel wear, and microfractures all lead to the end of a rifles life. You might be able to shoot that load for thre years and never notice anything and you might shoot it for three months and have to replace a barrel ot crack a receiver. Its a gamble and you are gambling with a very expensive piece of equipment - not to mention your life and limbs and the lives and limbs of those around you when you shoot.
Be smart and accept the 1/2 MOA accuracy -  its far more important than an extra grain of powder or the velocity it brings.

[mjbgalt]

i am going to try a different bullet weight and perhaps some IMR 4064.

I will update with any new info i find.

-Matt

[mjbgalt]

still no good groups, save the one i got at high pressure with Varget. could i have possibly gotten "soft" brass??? i keep shooting groups with different variables yet still get little bright spots and once in a while the ejector leaves a mark on my cartridge heads.

these are not loads that SHOULD be producing pressure.

i also threw out 16 pieces of this winchester brass before loading anything out of the 100 i bought because they had cracks or were not acceptible. could it just be a crappy lot of brass?

it consistently showed me a bedding problem too...two shots close and one away from those two. i used a Dremel to relieve the pressure on the barrel...took off the pressure point at the end of the forearm and sanded away the sides until i could slide paper around the barrel and under the stock. i will shoot again with groups of the same powder and bullet weights and see how it does.

on a side note, i shot a groundhog with my .243 A-Bolt today at the range. the stupid things are everywhere and if we get a shot of opportunity, we can take them. this one i got within 60 yards of and whistled. when he stood up i pressed the trigger and the 60-grain Sierra hollowpoint made a nasty mess. lol first thing i have shot with my reloads...only paper up until this time.

-Matt

[mjbgalt]

ok i think i may have found my pressure problem. my seating die is set up wrong. on one case tonight i felt a raised ring around the shoulder. when i seated the bullet the die pushed the case back a bit and created this ring...not good. i think i created incorrect headspacing (for lack of a better way to say it) and the case was whacking the hell out of my bolt, which was why i got shiny stuff and an extractor mark.

the shine, by the way, also comes from the cartridge headspacing on this ring and being tight when i close the bolt. the bolt face rubs the head as i close the bolt and shines the brass.

so i don't think i had pressure issues now...but i am not sure what the heck i should do with the seater. change the depth of the bullet seater? unscrew the whole thing and try again?

-Matt

[mjbgalt]

i re-set my dies...finally found the wrench that fits the RCBS dies...and got it set correctly. no more bulges...

- Matt