Author Topic: Help pick a caliber  (Read 1889 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline thelaw

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 220
Help pick a caliber
« on: January 17, 2006, 05:11:23 AM »
can't decide which caliber for a thompson encore project. i've got it narrowed down to the .250ackley, .260, .7-08, .280 and the .280ackley. i already own a .223, .6mm, .25/06, .270, .30/30 and a .300wsm so i have no real need for the gun or any of the calibers. i just want a new gun. i do handload so the wildcats would not be a problem either.

Offline Lone Star

  • Reformed Gunwriter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
  • Gender: Male
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2006, 05:51:21 AM »
Since you don't own a 7mm perhaps that would be an advantage.  The  cartridges you list give practically the same performance to the .270, but hey, 7mm is different!  

The .260 is also an interesting cartridge, I've had two and was impressed with the performance out of a small case.  It gives better ballistics with a 100-grain bullet than the .243 does, but gives practically the same with 140s as the 7-08 does.  I used 100-grain Ballistic Tips to harvest deer, and 120s for caribou.  I still have one, a M700VLS, which is outstanding on long range varmints using the Hornady 95 V-Max.

Offline nasem

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2006, 08:08:55 AM »
From the calibers you posted, It doesn't seem like your the type of guy that likes the "big boomers".... well

Im gonna agree with Lone Star, I think you should think about a cartridge similar to a 7mm mag.

Now if you want to add a "mini-monster" in your collection, and want to have a "big boomer", get a 338 win mag (just watch out for the recoil tho, its not very fun to shoot in a light rifle)

Offline huntswithdogs

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 999
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2006, 12:29:54 PM »
I'd vote for the 260 also. Its got that middle of the road thang going for it! It does it all. Better than some but not as good as others. If ya was wanting something really different,check out the 35 Whelen. That's gonna be my next one!

HWD

Offline killdeer

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 289
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2006, 04:17:40 PM »
6mm-06?


KD

Offline Nobade

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1927
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2006, 02:27:40 AM »
Ackley cartridges are best avoided in break open guns. It's almost impossible to get enough crush to support the shoulder when forming the cases. That said, I'd go with the 260 as well. It just plain works!
"Give me a lever long enough, and a place to stand, and I'll break the lever."

Offline james

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 798
  • Gender: Male
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2006, 02:47:52 AM »
Of the calibers listed I like the .260,  but I went with the 6.5 x 55 as I reload it in my Swedish mausers.   I load 95 gr. poly tips for my 12 yr old daughter to deer hunt with and 140 gr for me.  The ballistics of the 6.5 and 260 are essentially the same.  I only have one Encore frame so the 6.5 barrel stays on it most of the time.  When my daughter goes deer hunting with me, I use a Kimber sporterized Swedish Mauser in 6.5.
james

Offline bmbtek02

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2006, 04:05:11 AM »
I agree with nobade on the AI I personally love the 7mm mag but since you didnt list it I would go with the 280 you will not be disappointed! If you check into the 280 you will see it is a awesome cartridge!
Be polite, be courtious, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet!
Dying ain't hard for men like us.....its livin thats hard when everything you've had been butchered or killed.

Offline thelaw

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 220
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2006, 04:31:19 AM »
i do have a friend who has a encore in .250ackley. he's never had any problems with it that i'm aware of. it often shoots a little 3leaf clover at 100 yards. decisions, decisions, decisions. i guess that's the fun of getting a new rifle. thanks for the input.

Offline azmike

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 244
  • Gender: Male
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2006, 03:03:45 AM »
I would personally have a hard time deciding between the .260 and the .280, as I am a big fan of both, but I would probably start with the 280 and remain faithful to my first love, the 7mm bore. :grin: ...

THEN I'd get the .260.

Offline nasem

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2006, 02:25:48 PM »
seems like all your calibers are "the same"..... why not try something REALLYy out of the ordinary for you.... something like a 338 win mag, if you hand load you should have no problem working up your loads.

338 win mag, great for long / short / medium range, and will take down anything in north america

Offline kenscot

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2006, 12:57:43 PM »
Seeing as you are a handloader I would go with the 280

Offline 358Win

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 191
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2006, 07:15:57 PM »
Well if you can get it so chambered I'd highly recommend the 358 Winchester.

When designing a new rifle you have to design the cartridge first.  Since you've settled on the Encore platform that means that just about any of the major case designs are useable: rebated, rimmed, rimless, semi-rimmed, etc.

Since you've pretty much already got the 30 and under caliber range covered why not consider a medium bore.  While there are a lot of definitions of medium bore my personal definition is greater than 8mm such as the new 325 Winchester and less than 416 such as the 416 Remingtion.

In a medium bore one of the first topics that come up is recoil.  Some of the medium bore cartridges are almost abusive in that regard.

Recoil  is a function of 2 seperate components.  The first is conservation of linear momentum.  What this means is that the weight of the gun multiplied by the velocity of the gun is at least as much as the weight of the bullet multiplied by the velocity of the bullet.  The short story being that if you want to keep the recoil down you will also want to keep the velocity of the bullet down.  The second component of recoil is the jet effect of the powder gases when the pressure chamber (chamber plus barrel) is uncorked.  This additional recoil is a function of the weight of the powder gases and the exit pressure.  The short story here being keep the powder weight down, have a high expansion ratio, and use the fastest burning powder that will deliver the desired velocity.

Terminal performance is largely a function of the location and the volume of the permanent wound channel.  As in real estate the most important factor is location, location, location.  As many have noted before me keeping the recoil managable is a great aid in shot placement.

So the next question is how low can we go in velocity before trajectory begins to really suffer.  For rifle bullets with a ballistic coefficient between 0.3 and 0.5 my research indicates that 2,400 fps is just about the floor before trajectory really begins to suffer.  Most hunters I know, myself included can shoot about 3 inch groups at 100 yards from a field rest.  Granted that some young folks with really good eyes and a match grade rifle can shoot sub-inch groups from a bench rest.  But most field grade guns and pretty good shooters can't do much better than 3 inch groups from a field rest.  Lets not even discuss what Joe Average can do even from the sitting position with no field rest.  With a good field rest and assuming you are in the top 25% of the people you are looking at 9 inch groups at 300 yards.  This is why 300 yards is so often suggested as a practical limit on range.  Lets look at a fairly typical example the Hornady 154 grain 7mm bullet with a B.C. of 0.425, a 7mm Weatherby with the long freebore can barely get this bullet up to 3,200 fps.  With a 200 yard zero this bullet is down 6 inches at 300 yards.  If we use a 50% overlap of the 9 inch groups at 300 yards that means that a drop of 10.5 inches is almost undetectable in the field out to our 300 yard limit.  From the Hornady manual a muzzle velocity of 2,500 fps gives a 10.8 inch drop at 300 yards.  So 2,500 is enough to give a 50% overlap in groups at 300 yards against the same bullet at 3,200 fps.  The 2,500 fps velocity can easily be done with a 7mm-08 and this bullet.

Tne next point is penetration.  Many studies have been done by the Army and the experience of numerous Professional Hunters in Africa have shown that maximum penetration with everything from solids to fairly soft softpoints occurs at impact velocities between 2,400 fps and 2,150 fps.  In order to maximize the range over which this velocity range is maintained what we want it the highest possible B.C. and since Ballistic Coefficient is a function of Sectional Density we also want the highest possible S.D. or very high weight per caliber.

The other component of permanent wound channel volume is diameter..  So we also want the largest bore that we can handle driving a high BC and high SD bullet at 2450 to 2550 depending on closest range, see below..

So we want peak velocity of 2,400 fps at the closest range that shots normally occur.  In some cases this is down to 20 or 30 yards, in others it may be 80 or 90 yards for the closest normal shot.  Depends on the Game and the Terrain.

So in your Encore I'd recommend the rimmed 356 Winchester or the rimless 358 Winchester.  This is capable of driving a Barnes Triple X at 2,550 fps at a level of recoil that is way milder than I would ever guess before I worked with the 358 Winchester in the Browning BLR Lightning.  This gun weiighs 6.5 pounds sans scope has an excellent recoil pad and is just plain fun to shoot.  And it delivers more energy than a 30-06, pokes a much larger hole and actually kicks less.  Mostly due to efficiency.  48 grains of AA2520 in the 358 delivers more energy than 60 grains in a 30-06 and due to lower charge weight and higher expansion ratio has less jet effect recoil.

This is as close to free lunch as you're ever going to get in this world.

And should you ever want to head north you can get 2,100 with the Woodleigh 310 grain bullet which is an awesome medium range thumper fo big bears.  In this situation hold the range down to 250 yards or less and you can shoot clear through big bears with this.

For white-tails around home send a 180 or 200 grain at 2550 and you've got a very mild recoil deer round out to even 350 yards with a little holdover.

Offline Slamfire

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1028
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2006, 04:11:54 PM »
Quote from: nasem
seems like all your calibers are "the same"..... why not try something REALLYy out of the ordinary for you.... something like a 338 win mag, if you hand load you should have no problem working up your loads.

338 win mag, great for long / short / medium range, and will take down anything in north america


Don't forget the required accessory a full face Bell crash helmet.  :roll:
Bold talk from a one eyed fat man.

Offline rich56

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 88
my pick
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2006, 08:01:20 PM »
260, accurate, easy to shoot and handload. deadly on deer

Offline RaySendero

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1064
  • Gender: Male
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2006, 03:10:22 PM »
Quote from: thelaw
can't decide which caliber for a thompson encore project. i've got it narrowed down to the .250ackley, .260, .7-08, .280 and the .280ackley. i already own a .223, .6mm, .25/06, .270, .30/30 and a .300wsm so i have no real need for the gun or any of the calibers. i just want a new gun. i do handload so the wildcats would not be a problem either.


If I had the rifles you own and were to add another, I too, would work on the bigger side! - Adding either a 338 WM, 35 Whelen or 375 (either H&H/Wby).

But from your short list I'd pick the 260 Remington.
    Ray

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2006, 05:42:46 AM »
I don't know if you can get a Encore chambered in it..but if you can..take a look at a 338-06 A-square...I have one in a custom Handi rifle Wayne York built for me and love it..it gives excellent performance on deer..and will work great on anything bigger as well..you'll get ecellent velocities from the light weight bullets..and damn good velocities from the heavier weight ones..and it's very easy to load for..

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline brasskeeper

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 265
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2006, 09:37:29 AM »
6.5x284
6.5 WSM
6.5 Rem mag
7mm-08
280
338-06
375 JDJ

Offline countryrebel8174

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 143
  • Gender: Male
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2006, 09:47:40 PM »
IMO id get a 300 win mag....or maybe a 308
they can try and take my guns....but i aint givin' em up until all my shells are gone or i quit breathing.

Offline Norseman112

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 871
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2006, 02:47:21 PM »
I would have a hard time between .260 and .280, but I would lean towards .280  :D

John

Offline SUSQUASH

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Help pick a caliber
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2006, 05:03:13 PM »
I have to agree with the Norseman that either the .260 or .280 would be my choices.  I do think I would prefer the .260 as there is a great selection of bullet weights which would make it versatile for a number of kinds of game as well as paper or metalic targets.
Take care and keep you powder dry.  :D

Offline 358Win

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 191
Re: Help pick a caliber
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2006, 07:31:54 PM »
The 260 Remington really rocks.  On the small end bullets go down to around 75 grains and top out at 160.  Woodleigh in Austraila makes an awesome 160 grain protected point.  This is the bullet weight that made the 6.5x54 MS famous in Africa.  With a Sectional Density of 0.328 and a Ballistic Coefficent of 0.509 this one shoots real flat and penetrates really deep.  And you can now also get DPMS AR-10 clone in 260 Remington with 19 round clips and the best military semi-auto action in the world.  I just may have to have one.

Offline jro45

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1923
Re: Help pick a caliber
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2006, 03:04:31 AM »
For the Thomson Encore I'd vote for the 260 Rem.

Offline encore4me

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: Help pick a caliber
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2006, 11:45:29 AM »
 I would go with a .338 Federal or .358 Winchester, you dont have anything bigger bore. Both of these would be nice in a Encore with the Leupold VX II ultralight 3x9.


Matt

Offline brasskeeper

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 265
Re: Help pick a caliber
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2006, 06:03:57 AM »
I will add one to my list

45-70 or 450 marlin

Offline John020769

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 124
  • Gender: Male
Re: Help pick a caliber
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2006, 09:10:56 AM »
I would go 358 winchester........John ;D That is what I want

Offline thumbcocker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 160
Re: Help pick a caliber
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2006, 09:42:42 AM »
270

Offline kombi1976

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1390
Re: Help pick a caliber
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2006, 01:43:15 AM »
Mmmm, well, go the 280 if you want to keep it under 30 cal.
If not, wind up the boost and get a bbl in 9.3x74R!!
Load it light like they do for the drillings and double rifles........or load her HOT and match a 375H&H with better ballistic coefficients.
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"