Author Topic: Lead mixture (Read 2246 times)

bub524 · « **on:** October 04, 2006, 02:18:02 PM »

I recently started casting again after a long hiatus. I had some bullets around from an old caliber I don't load any more so I threw these in the pot. They made nice hard bullets. When I ran out of this lead I began to use some wheel weights. This does not seem to be as hard as the previous lead. I can almost scratch it with a finger nail. I have a lot of hardened chilled lead shot around. If I mix this in with the wheel weights will it help harden the final mix? I don't have a hardness tester, perhaps I should get one. Any thoughts on this?
I'm casting 45/70, 38-55, and 30-30.

jhalcott · « **Reply #1 on:** October 04, 2006, 05:27:51 PM »

why do you need/want a hard bullet? What makes the shot hard is arsenic! This is needed for good heat treating of softer alloys. Straight wheel weight alloy can be shot quite fast. A little tin can be added to help mold fill out IF that becomes a problem. Remember they killed off the Buffalo with 1 in 20 (tin to lead) plain base bullets. I think a hardness tester is as necessary as a chronograph. GET BOTH ! Go to www.castboolits.com for more info

stuffit · « **Reply #2 on:** October 04, 2006, 05:54:55 PM »

Wheel weights vary in their antimony content nowadays. They can vary in BHN from 9 or 10 to as much as 15 but usually they are from 10 to 12. Adding a little tin to the WW melt can help with bullet fill out and lots of casters do it regularly. If your moulds are gas check designs it changes the degree of hardness that you need to get good accuracy. Yes, a hardness tester is a good idea. They give you another known quantity that you don't have to wonder about with working up a load. In regard to the arsenic content, you have to have some (but not much) for your bullets to water quench harden or harden by heat treating. Without using either of these measures, the antimony content is the major contributor to a harder bullet. Your chilled shot is usually a good source of arsenic but is not very hard when used by itself as a casting alloy Wheel weghts have their own arsenic content but lots of casters like to add a small quantity of chilled shot to their alloy mix "for good measure". There is a lot of good knowledge over at the url the other poster recommended but you almost have to already know before you can tell what is good information and what is wishful thinking or opinion. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, I reckon.

The Lynan Cast Bullet Handbook has a lot of god information and is good for basic recommendations.

stuffit

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #3 on:** October 04, 2006, 11:51:03 PM »

like was said your chilled shot isnt going to do much to harden your alloy. The reason it itself is hard is it is water dropped when made and when you melt it in an alloy your going to loose that unless you then water drop the bullets your making.

VTDW · « **Reply #4 on:** October 05, 2006, 01:02:21 AM »

stuffit nailed it. IIRC the #9 shot is from 4-6% antimony.

Dave

Kragman71 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 05, 2006, 01:46:50 AM »

Quote from: bub524 on October 04, 2006, 02:18:02 PM

I recently started casting again after a long hiatus. I had some bullets around from an old caliber I don't load any more so I threw these in the pot. They made nice hard bullets. When I ran out of this lead I began to use some wheel weights. This does not seem to be as hard as the previous lead. I can almost scratch it with a finger nail. I have a lot of hardened chilled lead shot around. If I mix this in with the wheel weights will it help harden the final mix? I don't have a hardness tester, perhaps I should get one. Any thoughts on this?
I'm casting 45/70, 38-55, and 30-30.

If you use scrap lead or wheelweights,you never know what theirharness is.Sooner or later you will need to have them tested for BHN.
Send me a few samples of bullets from each batch.I have a Saeco tester,and will test them and e mail the results.
Frank

bub524 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 05, 2006, 04:28:18 AM »

I think I'll look into getting a tester. Thanks for offer to check them for me. Lots to think about here.
jhalcott, check the link you left, I don't think its what you meant to post

.
Thanks all.

jhalcott · « **Reply #7 on:** October 05, 2006, 06:24:40 AM »

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ Sorry ,try this one. http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm is a page full of info on bullet alloys

Kragman71 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 06, 2006, 10:48:04 AM »

Quote from: bub524 on October 05, 2006, 04:28:18 AM

I think I'll look into getting a tester. Thanks for offer to check them for me. Lots to think about here.
jhalcott, check the link you left, I don't think its what you meant to post .
Thanks all.

No,my post is quite straightforward.It does'nt cost a dime to test 3 bullets,or 6 ,etc.I've done it for another shooter,on a different website.
I don't care what you decide to do.In the long run,buying the tester is the best choice.
Frank

bub524 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 06, 2006, 11:22:22 AM »

I sent for a Lee tester. Read an article on it. They thought it was okay for the price. We'll see.

Awf Hand · « **Reply #10 on:** October 07, 2006, 05:11:23 PM »

Not to be difficult here, but according to Robyn at Metalico Granite City (Lawrence brand chilled shot) the purpose of the inorganic arsenic additive is not to harden, but to reduce the surface tension of the molten lead mixture. It has the same affect on lead as soap does on water.

The reason they add the inorganic arsenic is so when they make the chilled shot, the melt forms into nice round balls. Otherwise the process would just make ugly little globs. This roundness is what helps them fly straighter and truer when fired in your shotgun.

The anitmony added is what hardens the lead. The "high antimony" is about 5% while the standard chilled shot is only 2%. You can ask her about the hardening effect of the water, but if I recall, it is negligible.

Please read a little bit about the shot at the link I've attached. Call and talk to Robyn about getting the material safety data sheet (MSDS). She will help you with any questions about the content of their products, as well as the process by which the shot is made. This is a good source of antimony in that is is very repeatable and uniform.

http://www.maycoindustries.com/shot.htm

jhalcott · « **Reply #11 on:** October 07, 2006, 05:36:02 PM »

*Tip: Lead shot has .5 to 1.0% arsenic (depending on the manufacturer) and can be used as a hardening agent when heat treating lead and lead-antimony alloys. 1/4 of 1% arsenic is all it takes. Adding any more than this adds nothing & will not further harden the alloy. Additional hardening can be achieved by heat treating when arsenic is present to approximately 30 to 32 BHN.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VTDW · « **Reply #12 on:** October 07, 2006, 06:19:15 PM »

Quote from: VTDW on October 05, 2006, 01:02:21 AM

stuffit nailed it. IIRC the #9 shot is from 4-6% antimony.

Dave

stuffit nailed it. IIRC the #9 shot is from 4-6% antimony.[/b]

stuffit · « **Reply #13 on:** October 08, 2006, 04:18:13 AM »

Quote from: Awf Hand on October 07, 2006, 05:11:23 PM

Not to be difficult here, but according to Robyn at Metalico Granite City (Lawrence brand chilled shot) the purpose of the inorganic arsenic additive is not to harden, but to reduce the surface tension of the molten lead mixture. It has the same affect on lead as soap does on water.

The reason they add the inorganic arsenic is so when they make the chilled shot, the melt forms into nice round balls. Otherwise the process would just make ugly little globs. This roundness is what helps them fly straighter and truer when fired in your shotgun.

I'm not trying to be difficult either but we need to get this right. I could be mistaken but......
The factor that holds soap bubbles together is that the addition of detergent/soap INCREASES the suface tension of the mixture making it "hold to itself" more. Arsenic is used in dropped shot because it also INCREASES the surface tension of the alloy and this INCREASED surface tension works to hold the alloy in a sperical (round) shape as it cools/hardens. As an incidental observation, tin in an alloy does the opposite and results in better fill out of a mould because the REDUCED surface tension of the alloy makes it "cling" to itself less and "flow" better. I'll try to find an authoritative reference for this but it seems pretty much common sense the way I'm figuring it now.
Best Regards,
stuffit

Lead pot · « **Reply #14 on:** October 08, 2006, 01:29:14 PM »

I use a couple drops of soap in water to reduces the surface tension when I pan out the gold in my concentrates the fine gold can float and you will loose it.
Two or three dops of dish soap will break the surface tension and the fine gold will settle to the bottom of the pan.
Kurt

Awf Hand · « **Reply #15 on:** October 08, 2006, 01:42:18 PM »

http://www.exploratorium.edu/ronh/bubbles/soap.html

http://www.rangeinfo.org/resource_library/NSRS/04PolicyTrack/TestingRange.pdf#search=%22arsenic%20surface%20tension%20of%20lead%22

I mispoke. The surface tension of the lead is increased by the addition of the arsenic.

"kind of like making bubbles with soapy water" was what Robyn had told me.

I'm sorry. I'll take my lashings.

Tin does make for a good "flow" in filling out moulds. I've used recovered (s)crap lead that was on it's way to be fishing sinkers. I should've let it go. At least as a sinker it would've succeeded - i.e. didn't float. By the time I'd added enough Tin to have repeatable castings, I had a mix that was unduplicatible and smeared the bore like shooting silver crayons.

stuffit · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2006, 04:50:11 PM »

I reckon I'll have to take mine too. Right on the arsenic in the lead alloy and wrong on the soap and water. A bad analogy but soap definitelly does decrease the surface tension of water. Oh well. Batting 500 is it? [lol]
stuffit

VTDW · « **Reply #17 on:** October 09, 2006, 01:25:56 AM »

I think we are all just frustrated chemist wannabees

But ain't it fun?

Lead pot · « **Reply #18 on:** October 09, 2006, 03:55:24 AM »

I got a pot with soapy water heating to soften the noodles for the lashings

Kurt

bub524 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 12, 2006, 05:53:32 PM »

Got the Lee tester and it turned out to be about 22. Thats a Lee pot full of WWs and a third cup of shot.

oldandslow · « **Reply #20 on:** October 22, 2006, 06:23:19 AM »

Came across this in the 21st edition of Machinery's Handbook. On page 596, table 10 is listed ASTm alloy gr. 19 as 5 percent tin, 9 percent antimony, and 86 percent lead with a brinell hardness of 17.7 at 68 degrees F and 8 at 212 degrees. No. 18 is listed at 10 percent tin, 12.5 percent antimony, and 77 percent lead for a hardness of 27.5 at 68 degress and 13.6 at 212 degrees.

I found this while searching for the alloy for No. 4 babbit to use to mix whith pure lead for a little hardness. I used to buy bullets from a guy who used this trick and they were really good bullets. He is long gone and I'm out of bullets.

ronangelia7 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 02, 2006, 06:49:27 AM »

Does anyone know where to order a LBT lead hardness tester. Are they still making them?

Ron

jhalcott · « **Reply #22 on:** December 02, 2006, 02:38:28 PM »

Do A google search for LBT bullets. They are supposed to be in Moyie springs and in business again, but....!

masek77 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 17, 2006, 04:23:41 PM »

Its always a good idea to know what kind of lead alloy you are using. I have to agree that a hardness tester is something you absolutly have to have if you are casting bullets.

Graybeard · « **Reply #24 on:** December 17, 2006, 06:08:34 PM »

Quote from: ronangelia7 on December 02, 2006, 06:49:27 AM

Does anyone know where to order a LBT lead hardness tester. Are they still making them?

Ron

Veral is a sponsor here at GBO. He has his own forum, it's either just above or just below the Cast Bullet Forum. Can't remember which. You can contact him there and order a hardness tester from him. He now has his own website also at www.LBTmoulds.com so you can go there and order as well.