45 bullet for multiple guns

[TommyD]

Dear Veral,

I have read about your moulds and bullet designs online and the reviews are quite positive. I am not sure which bullet to order, so let me give you some background info and perhaps you can advise which mould would best suit my needs.

The cartridge I reload most often is the 45 Colt, and I have 4 different guns that shoot this cartridge. I am looking for a bullet that will give me the best overall accuracy in all 4 of these guns.

My guns are:
Ruger Blackhawk .45 colt/45 ACP 4 5/8" barrel
Ruger Super Redhawk .454 with Leupold 2x scope
Freedom Arms Mod 83 (scoped) with separate cylinders for .45 Colt, .454, and 45 ACP
Puma Model 92 lever action rifle in .454

I have found that in general the guns shoot better with a 300 grain bullet, but have disappointing accuracy using lighter bullets in the 250 to 255 range. The lighter bullets are OK (not great) at 25 yards, but the groups open up disporportionately at 50 yards and resemble "patterns" more than groups. The exception to this is the FA 83 shooting 250 Hornady XTPs over 24 gr of H110. Those give 2 to 3 inch groups at 50 yards - although I have not found a cast bullet so far of that weight that shoots well.

From my reading, it would seem the 300 grain gas check bullet in either the long flat nose or wide flat nose configuration would suit my needs. I would actually like a lighter bullet (250 to 260 gr), but haven't had any luck in the accuracy department with them. What would you recommend?

Tom Diakun

[Veral]

  You can get very good accuracy with a 260 gr WFN ---- IF YOU FIT IT PROPERLY TO EACH GUN!
 
  There will be some variation in diameters between your guns, so you'll have to measure all of them and order a bullet to fit the largest.  Since you want a light weight and powder capacity is large with both the 45 and 454, ask for a short nose, which is .350.  That should feed well in the lever gun, if it doesn't have feed problems with other bullets.  (Seated out the WFN won't feed in most leveractions, or will require a bit of care in closing the action instead of a carefree snap of the lever.)  It is very important that bullets fill the levergun chamber well, and especially with shorter bullets, as they must not be allowed to tip on takeoff.  (The reason light jacketed don't shoot well too.)  With the short nose, you can probably shoot one diameter in all the guns.

  The 260 gr WFN is an excellent weight for deer and bear -- and elk if you don't shoot them in the butt or try to break the shoulder joints on purpose.  It will shoot through with side and quartering shots, wounding well all the way to exit.  If a straight away shot presents itself on an elk, I've found the head and neck are allmost always very prominately visable and an excellent target.  The only target if your bullet is marginal for deep or severe penetration shots.

[TommyD]

Thanks for the reply, Veral.

Would you also recommend a gas check design for this bullet? The added cost of the a gas check is not a problem for me, as I am casting for quality rather than cheap bulk ammo. Actually I would prefer a gas check bullet, if that is what you recommend. I will be casting wheel weight and do have a source of tin to add to it if necessary, although the tin is expensive at $10 per pound.

What do I need to measure the chamber size?

I do have some commercial cast bullets that claim to be .454 (I will have to get the micrometer out to check this) as well as my own cast that I size to .452. If they push through the cylinders of my revolvers with a snug fit, is that an adequate measure of chamber size?


I realize that some of the answers may be in your book, but I just sent you an order for it last week, and don't have it yet.

Another question is choice of propellant. I have seen in some of your posts that you have recommended H110 and AA No.9. What are your thoughts on Lil'Gun? Proponents of Lil'gun proclaim higher velocity with less pressure, but I don't see a lot of people addressing it's accuracy potential. My own experience with it is limited, but I am starting to believe that my my loads with H110 give me tighter groups. But it could also be that I just haven't found the right load with Lil'gun. What is your experience with it?

Tom

[Veral]

  Definately get a gas check design, as accuracy will tend to be better than plainbase, and pressures lower with heavier loads.

  So far as addition of tin to ww alloy.  I recommend only a short piece of no lead silver bearing plumbers solder to a fresh pot of alloy.
  This solder is available at all hardwares which sell plumbing supplies, but read the label and be sure it contains some silver, as a trace does magic to castibility, for only pennies per potfull.  Standard diameter is 1/8 inch, and 2 inches for a 10 pound pot or 4 inches for a twenty pound pot will improve castibility and put a little shine on your bullets.  You'll not be able to find any other benifits that I can detect.  But it is so inexpensive for benifit it gives.  By the way, it will really show when casting pure lead muzzle loader bullets on much of the lead sold as pure or soft lead, and not change or up hardness at all.

  Purchase rifle throat slugs from LBT for rifles, and push through slugs for both rifles and handguns.  Don't use hard cast bullets for slugging.  Only very soft, or nearly pure lead.  If you have a mold that casts large enough, get it hot, cast with WW alloy, air cool them till just cool enough to handle, and oil them a bit and they will slug to the exact diameter of the hole they pass through, which should be only cylinder throats.  You probably won't be able to get them through a barrel, and stuck bullets are no fun, even for a professional smith to remove.

  My experiance with Lil'gun is zero, as the Feds stopped me from shooting 7 years ago. (But they haven't stopped my business -- YET!  Which is their goal.)  Look in a burning rate chart.  If it burns at about the same rate as H110 / 296, it should be great.    AA 9 burns about 10% faster.  But the most attractive aspects of these powders is a straight pressure climb to 100,000 psi, where most if not all flake powders take a spike at about 40,000 psi, which is very undesirable with heavy loads which will be used in hot weather at times.  Also these are ball powders which cause minimal bore erosion, far less than stick and flake powders.  -  I have no idea where Lil'gun stands in these respects.

[TommyD]

I do have some soft lead that I can cast with. I have been segregating the flat stick-on wheel weights from the regular clip on type. I have been told to keep them separate because the "stick-on" type is nearly pure lead and very soft. Would these be acceptable to use for measuring my cylinders?

How do I go about it? Do I just cast some soft lead bullets and try to push them throught the cylinders unsized and measure the resulting diameters (both before and after pushing through)?


I am in Buffalo, NY and we are recovering from a major blackout caused by a freak snowstorm. The power went out Thursday night. I have had a 5000 watt 220 V generator since 1999 that I can hook into the house system, so I have heat, light, hot water, refrigerators, sump pump, etc. I have been running a mini-refugee center at my house. 5 extra people overnight for the last couple of nights and a dozen at dinner. We have also been running power to a neighbor to keep his basement dry. It has been a busy time for me and my wife. We just had main power come back this evening at my house, but we still have the refugees becuase their houses don't have power yet. So it may be a couple of days before I get to it. The priority at the moment is caring for neighbors and family.

Regarding Lil'gun, the only advantage for me would be that it meters more easily through my Dillon progressive reloader. The slide type powder can bind up with the real fine powders like H110. Other powders like 231 and AA No. 5 meter VERY consistently to a tenth of a grain on my electronic scale. H110 meters just fine on my RCBS measure and it is similarly consistent in the charges it throws, but it adds an extra step.

On burn rate charts, Lil'gun is a little slower than H110/296. But it may not have the linear pressure climb like h110. I remember seeing a comment by John Linebaugh to that effect and that he didn't like that powder for that reason. Or so I remember. But I only saw that comment once, and can't find it again so don't take it as gospel.

We all wish you much success in staying in business. You provide a much needed product and expertise.


Tom

[Veral]

  The tape on wheel weights are as soft lead as you can get.  Cast some bullets with them and if they are too small, stand them on something solid and tap the end lightly with a hammer, or crush them lengthwise in a vise, untill they are larger than the hole you want to measure, then lubricate and push or tap them through the cylinder throats.  Also do the barrel and try the barrel slug in the cylinder throats.  If it is tight, have the  mold cut to suit the barrel plus .001.  After you get the mold, size bullets of the hardness you want to shoot in the appropriate sizer and use a sized bullet as a guage to lap the cylinder throats, then fire lap the barrel.  The process is very quick with most guns, but some take a while.  No matter how long it takes it will be more rewarding than anything you've probably ever done in the reloading department.

  May God bless you for your efforts and kindness toward your neighbors.  Since our backslam from big brother what you are doing is to us the most important thing in life.  Play with your giuns when you have time.

  Lil'l gun sounds like an excellent powder for near max loads for sure, and perhaps for full power.  The pressure problem isn't dangerous unless loads are max in cool weather, then high temps bring on serious pressure problems.  In other words, load some loads to max in what you consider normal shooting weather, lay gun an loads on the dash on a sunny day till they are warm or hot to the touch.  If pressures get touchy, back down on your max load.  You'll know pressure is getting severe if case extraction takes some pressure.

[TommyD]

Hi Veral,

Thank you for your kind comments. I personally feel we have a duty to help our fellow man in times of need. It is my choice. I do, however, resent when somebody (like Big Brother) tells me that I HAVE to do it. But I digress into politics ...

Regarding bullet alloys, I like the idea of the silver addition. Do you water drop the freshly cast bullet? Or is it hard enough for gas checked bullets in the 45 Colt range?

Back to measuring the sizes. I am new to this, so the questions I ask are quite basic.

When I push the soft lead slugs through: is it correct that I push them through the cylinder starting at the breech end but for the barrel, I start at the muzzle in a revolver or lever action rifle?

In a 1911 auto pistol, I could easily do it from the breech end because the barrel is routinely removed. But I can't see any easy way to do it in a revolver.

Tom

[Veral]

  For light to moderate 45 colt loads air cooled is fine, but when properly fitted I find hardening by water quenching always gives tighter accuracy, lower pressure, and of coarse higher velocity potential if one wants heavy loads.

  You have the slugging procedure exactly correct.  If you have any problems taking measurements, or understanding what to do with them, send the slugs to me with your mold order and I'll cut the mold to fit your gun, and write a note explaining any questions you have, with details regarding procedure for you to follow, as seems pertinent to me after reading your correspondence and taking the measurements.  - This latter is standard service for anyone needing guidence or having questions.  And, of coarse I'm here if you have any problems in getting results once the mold arrives..

[TommyD]

Hi Veral,

I had the opportunity to cast some bullets today out of my Lyman moulds both water quenched wheel weight and soft lead. Both of my Lyman moulds (452490 and 452651) drop undersized bullets varying between .450 and .451. They just drop through the 45 colt cylinder on my FA83!

I compressed one of the soft lead bullets in a vise to fatten it up a little and and then with a wooden dowel and  mallet "tapped" it through. It took a bit more "tapping" than I expected so I did not do the barrel. Perhaps my lead is not as soft as I thought.

The resulting slug came out .453.

So if I understand correctly the advice you have given me I should order a mould
260 grain WFN with a nose length of .350 and a diameter of .454, with gas check shank..

Do I have it right?

Tom

[Veral]

  You have specified a precision piece of poison.  You'll love it.

[TommyD]

Sounds fantastic! My wife and i are flying down to Florida for a few days. We leave this morning. When I get back I will send you off a money order for the mould and a fitted nose punch. How much will that be with shipping to the Buffalo, NY area (zip 14221)?

I already have ordered some Blue Soft lube and your book.

Which velocity range will this bullet perform best in?

In the past, I have used loads recommended by John Linebaugh:
8 grains of 231 for a 900 fps plinking load
24 grains H110 for a bit hotter hunting load

Also, what is the meplat size on the .454 260 gr WFN? I have read with great interest your postings on displacement velocity and I want to optimize my hunting loads in this respect.

Tom

[Veral]

  Shipping anywhere in the US for a mold is $7.10

   It will perform best at any velocity you like best.  So far as what the bullet will stand for speed, I've shot the 44 280 gr at 2450 from a 444,  and a 350 gr WFN at 2800 fps from a 458, both with one inch accuracy at 100 yards, and no leading at all.
  Johns loads are excellent choices.  You'll find the bullet very flexable so far as powder charges.  When precisely fitted, LBT bullets don't take fine tuning of powder charges, messing with various primers, biting the tongue etc to make them shoot. 

  As I stated previously, at 1200 fps, deer and elk go down when and where they are hit.  Try a load in that velocity range and see what you think.  If you like results, don't bother going hotter, unless you want to be kicked around.

  Meplat diameter is about .35.

[TommyD]

Sounds great, Veral.

The order was dropped in the mailbox this evening (after hours). So you should get it in a few days.

Thanks for all your advice. It is really good service to be able to get questions answered like this prior to ordering.

Tom