"Rebel" flag not wanted at battle event

[Dee]

The reason as I understand it for the revision of the Flag of the Confederacy to what it is NOW, was an effort at IDENTIFYING soldiers on the battlefield. The FIRST NATIONAL CONFEDERATE FLAG, was easily mistaken for the U.S. flag at a distance. This was rectified with the Stars and Bars. Keeping in mind that many times Confederate and Union armies and units had not even a telescope to identify approaching columns.
As for ironfoot's remarks regarding the Flag of the Confederacy, if he is not southern, he cannot "RELATE to our TRUE HISTORY". Political correctness is a nuisance, in my opinion, and is to appease the few, while burdening the masses. JMO

[Almtnman]

The reason as I understand it for the revision of the Flag of the Confederacy to what it is NOW, was an effort at IDENTIFYING soldiers on the battlefield. The FIRST NATIONAL CONFEDERATE FLAG, was easily mistaken for the U.S. flag at a distance. This was rectified with the Stars and Bars. Keeping in mind that many times Confederate and Union armies and units had not even a telescope to identify approaching columns.

That's the way I understand it also, it was changed to what it is now to identify troops on the battlefield.

[AtlLaw]

The reason as I understand it for the revision of the Flag of the Confederacy to what it is NOW, was an effort at IDENTIFYING soldiers on the battlefield. The FIRST NATIONAL CONFEDERATE FLAG, was easily mistaken for the U.S. flag at a distance. This was rectified with the Stars and Bars. Keeping in mind that many times Confederate and Union armies and units had not even a telescope to identify approaching columns.

That's the way I understand it also, it was changed to what it is now to identify troops on the battlefield.

Me to! See?  We're all in agreement!   

[Ga.windbreak]

If I was black, and my ancestors had been slaves. I don't think I would hold the Confederate flag in high regard.
I understand that many southerners, with justification, honor the Confederate flag as a symbol of valor and sacrifice.
To some, it seems more like a Nazi flag of a despotic regime.

So funny you would say that. I live just outside Savannah, Ga. and have black friends. In talking to them about the war most are surprised to find out the truth of the matter. When I first said to one of them that they fought for the South also; the answer I received most was that they were forced to do so. I then ask a very simple question. Just how are you going to force any man to do anything once you have given him the means to fight with? And I would think it even harder to do once you put those troops together. Besides that anyone who has ever been under fire surely won't fight if their heart isn't in it. Jackson is known to have had over 3000 black troops under his command. The Free black command that patrolled and guarded New Orleans. The list go on and on and all it really takes is the desire to find the truth and the truth shall set you free.

I will also agree that most today are to afraid to stand up for what is right. After what has been and is going on now it's no wonder. Charles Heston said it best when he spoke before the grads at Harvard. "Our grandfathers will be ashamed of us when they look down on what we've done or the lack there of."

[Almtnman]

Ga.windbreak, glad you posted that so I could add this. Here's a short brief about black Confederate soldiers taken from Here which ironfoot could have read for himself since I had posted the link to it back up towards the beginning of this thread.

Black Confederates, Silas Chandler of Mississippi, Dick Poplar from Virginia, Bill Yopp a native Georgian, and Henry "Dad" Brown of South Carolina, all are known to have “seen the elephant”.  Louis Napoleon Winbush of Tennessee was among the 43 Black Confederates known to have ridden with Nathan Bedford Forrest.  These men came from all across the Confederacy, served voluntarily, and participated in United Confederate Veteran reunions for many years after the war was ended.

Silas Chandler served with Blythe's 44th Mississippi Regiment initially as the body servant to his boyhood friend, Andrew Chandler.  When Andrew was wounded in the upper thigh at the battle of Chickamauga, Silas carried Andrew on his back for three miles.  Getting onto a train, Silas ensured that Andrew was returned to his home in Mississippi.

For saving their son’s leg and life, the Chandler family gave Silas land after the war.  This, however, was not his only thanks.  Silas Chandler is the only African-American to receive (posthumously) the Confederate Order of the Iron Cross, which was bestowed on him by the United Daughters of the Confederacy.

Take notice that Nathan Bedford Forrest had 43 black Confederates that rode with him voluntarily. The history is out there for anyone to read, they can do it that way, or just listen to hearsay from people that wants to change history. I prefer to dig into it and see what really happened.

[Ga.windbreak]

Ga.windbreak, glad you posted that so I could add this. Here's a short brief about black Confederate soldiers taken from Here which ironfoot could have read for himself since I had posted the link to it back up towards the beginning of this thread.

Black Confederates, Silas Chandler of Mississippi, Dick Poplar from Virginia, Bill Yopp a native Georgian, and Henry "Dad" Brown of South Carolina, all are known to have “seen the elephant”.  Louis Napoleon Winbush of Tennessee was among the 43 Black Confederates known to have ridden with Nathan Bedford Forrest.  These men came from all across the Confederacy, served voluntarily, and participated in United Confederate Veteran reunions for many years after the war was ended.

Silas Chandler served with Blythe's 44th Mississippi Regiment initially as the body servant to his boyhood friend, Andrew Chandler.  When Andrew was wounded in the upper thigh at the battle of Chickamauga, Silas carried Andrew on his back for three miles.  Getting onto a train, Silas ensured that Andrew was returned to his home in Mississippi.

For saving their son’s leg and life, the Chandler family gave Silas land after the war.  This, however, was not his only thanks.  Silas Chandler is the only African-American to receive (posthumously) the Confederate Order of the Iron Cross, which was bestowed on him by the United Daughters of the Confederacy.

Take notice that Nathan Bedford Forrest had 43 black Confederates that rode with him voluntarily. The history is out there for anyone to read, they can do it that way, or just listen to hearsay from people that wants to change history. I prefer to dig into it and see what really happened.

I agree with you and thanks. If we don't take back our history then who will? To think that all those young men, who truly gave their all, also to lose their history to lies of the government that only wants power by playing one group against another makes their sacrifice even more important to preserve. Slavery is not a southern thing, a U.S. thing or even an American thing it's world wide and still on going. And to lay the seed of slavery on the door step of the war of northern aggression is to belittle the men, North and South, who gave their very lives to preserve what those in power have thrown away so easily.

[blackhawk45]

The "REBEL" Flag?

The red back ground signifies the BLOOD OF CHRIST.
The blue back ground in the bars signify HEAVEN.
The white trim along the bars, PURITY OF CHRIST.
The twelve stars signify the TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL.
The center star signifies CHRIST HIMSELF.

REBEL FLAG? I think not.

The FLAG OF THE CONFEDERATE STATES, SIGNFING "FREEDOM AND STATES RIGHTS" is what I prefer. But that's just my opinion. This Cherokee thinks his fore fathers were right not to surrender. But that's just my opinion also.

God Bless General Beauregard

Thanks Dee ,that is exactly what I was looking for. I had read ,somewhere that the Stars and Bars were actually a religious flag ,not a flag of hatred. but in this day and age ,the schools teach a different type of History ,than what I was taught as a youngster. My forefathers served with the Union,during the war between the states. My GGG grandfather was killed ,July 3rd 1863, in Gettysburg Pa. Pvt. Calvin  Mehaffey , died the same day as Gen. John Reynolds. It's a shame ,when our teachers only teach politically correct History,rather than actual History, Hell they don't even teach our students anything about Viet Nam, so surely they wont be taught anything about the war in the Middle East.

[ironfoot]

The "truth of the matter" is that the Civil War was a rebellion to preserve slavery. If you really "read up on the matter", not just read southern apologist literature, that fact will become clear. The southern core slavery states seceded when a northerner was elected on an anti-slavery platform. Lincoln was more concerned with preserving the Union than with ending slavery, but his intention was to do both, and he succeeded. The Confederate flag means "band of brothers" and "sacrifice for your homeland" to some, to others it means a repressive regime that enslaved people.

Here is a link to the Republican party platform of 1860:

http://alpha.furman.edu/~benson/docs/repplat6.htm

Here is an excerpt from the platform:

8. That the normal condition of all the territory of the United States is that of freedom; That as our Republican fathers, when they had abolished Slavery in all our national territory, ordained that "no person should be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law," it becomes our duty, by legislation, whenever such legislation is necessary, to maintain this provision of the Constitution against all attempts to violate it; and we deny the authority of Congress, of a territorial legislature, or of any individuals, to give legal existence to Slavery in any Territory of the United States.

9. That we brand the recent re-opening of the African slave-trade, under the cover of our national flag, aided by perversions of judicial power, as a crime against humanity and a burning shame to our country and age; and we call upon Congress to take prompt and efficient measures for the total and final suppression of that execrable traffic.

10. That in the recent vetoes, by their Federal Governors, of the acts of the Legislatures of Kansas and Nebraska, prohibiting Slavery in those Territories, we find a practical illustration of the boasted Democratic principle of Non- Intervention and Popular Sovereignty, embodied in the Kansas-Nebraska bill, and a demonstration of the deception and fraud involved therein.

11. That Kansas should, of right, be immediately admitted as a State under the Constitution recently formed and adopted by her people, and accepted by the House of Representatives.

Here is a link to Lincoln's Cooper's Union speech:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/cooper.htm

That speech along with the Lincoln/Douglas debates, established Lincoln as an anti slavery candidate, and helped secure him as the Republican presidential nominee. 

[Ga.windbreak]

The "truth of the matter" is that the Civil War was a rebellion to preserve slavery. If you really "read up on the matter", not just read southern apologist literature, that fact will become clear. The southern core slavery states seceded when a northerner was elected on an anti-slavery platform. Lincoln was more concerned with preserving the Union than with ending slavery, but his intention was to do both, and he succeeded. The Confederate flag means "band of brothers" and "sacrifice for your homeland" to some, to others it means a repressive regime that enslaved people.

Be very careful about what doors you open my friend. There are people in this country today that can and will say the same about the Stars and Stripes. Our brave forefathers had the chance to kill slavery before it ever became a problem and it wasn't only the south of that day who caused that to  NOT happen. Georgia's original constitution called for no slaves to be allowed in the state. Conn. and Mass, on the other hand, had very large slave holdings early on as well as Virginia. Tobacco and Farming were king in that day and the more land you had under cultivation the richer you were. See George Washington, Tom Jefferson, and others. "Let those without sin cast the first stone". I don't believe there is anyone here today that would have one positive thing to say about Slavery; it is an evil thing and belittles both owner and slave. There are some here that would also say that we are all slaves today with only the appearance of the freedom of our forefathers. There were also Black men that owned slaves in that day. There were also Blacks who were free; living in the south of that day. How ever you want to cut it the TRUTH of the matter is that the Federal government of that day forced it's will on a part of the citizenry that had it's freedom taken from it by that same government by the force of arms. The very thing that we fought the War of 76 and 1812 to gain our freedom from England we lost in 1865. Your great Lincoln
broke all kinds of laws to maintain his control over the country in the name of preserving the Union. He put people of that day who spoke out against him in jail with no chance of a trial, put parts of the north under Marshal law, there were riots in NY because of conscription, which was against the law, and on and on. All in the name of saving the Union. Are we, as a people, better for it? In some ways yes, maybe, and in some ways, maybe not. I'm reminded of the question Ben Franklin was asked by a woman after the Constitution was signed as to what kind of government we had and his reply was "Madam, you have a Republic if you can hold on to it." My guess is that Ben is looking down and sadly shaking his head; as are they all.

 

Those words could be said for any man or woman giving his/her life in the service of our country from 1776 until 2008. We dishonor them all when we dishonor even one of them for they all have given everything so that we can sleep in peace, lets not forget that!

[ironfoot]

"Your great Lincoln broke all kinds of laws to maintain his control over the country in the name of preserving the Union. He put people of that day who spoke out against him in jail with no chance of a trial, put parts of the north under Marshal law, there were riots in NY because of conscription, which was against the law, and on and on. All in the name of saving the Union."

The Confederacy did the same things in order to try to save the Confederacy. Lincoln was a great man. His efforts led to the end of slavery, and restored the Union. If the Union isn't perfect, you have the rest of your life to make it better.

[Ga.windbreak]

The Confederacy did the same things in order to try to save the Confederacy. Lincoln was a great man. His efforts led to the end of slavery, and restored the Union. If the Union isn't perfect, you have the rest of your life to make it better.

The Confederacy did the same thing? Please show me where. As to the Union being perfect, it's not because it's run by man not God. As for me making it better I feel after 67 years of raising a son and two daughters that I'm very proud of  and serving my country in the US Navy for 6 years (60-66) I feel I've done my duty to my country so I'm sure I've paid MY dues.

[ironfoot]

The Confederacy did the same things in order to try to save the Confederacy. Lincoln was a great man. His efforts led to the end of slavery, and restored the Union. If the Union isn't perfect, you have the rest of your life to make it better.

The Confederacy did the same thing? Please show me where. As to the Union being perfect, it's not because it's run by man not God. As for me making it better I feel after 67 years of raising a son and two daughters that I'm very proud of  and serving my country in the US Navy for 6 years (60-66) I feel I've done my duty to my country so I'm sure I've paid MY dues.

Nobody said the Union was perfect.
Nobody was attacking you.
Thank you for your service to our country.

You can read about Confederate conscription and martial law in the book Battle Cry of Freedom:

"In the spring of 1862 the Confederate government enacted two radical measures...conscription and martial law." Page 429.

"Although he had gone to war to prevent coercion of a state by the national government, (Robert E.) Lee now believed the war would be lost unless the government in Richmond obtained the power to coerce men into the army." Page 430.

"The conscription law allowed for buying substitutes, and for other exemptions. Some of the exemptions created a potential for fraud. Many new schools sprang up as the teaching profession enjoyed a remarkable growth. Scores of apothecary shops suddenly appeared stocked with 'a few empty jars, a cheap assortment of combs and brushes, a few bottles of hairdye and 'wizard oil' and other Yankee nostrums. Governors who opposed conscription increased the number of civil servants." Page 431.

"Davis overlooked the suppression of liberties in parts of the Confederacy, especially in east Tennessee, where several hundred civilians languished in southern 'Bastilles' and five had been executed." Page 434.

[Ga.windbreak]

If the Union isn't perfect, you have the rest of your life to make it better.

Whatever you say and with all due respect I didn't serve for any ones thanks. I felt it was my duty to the men who went before me, the 2 Uncles, who helped raise me.

But enough of me, I owe you an apology, you were right about conscription and martial law. And while you are correct in that they were enacted the effect was far from the same as to what Lincoln did in the North. Jeff Davis had no where near or abuse the power that Abe Lincoln had or did. You have to remember that the CSA was first and foremost a "States Rights" form of government; the way this country was set up to be in the first place. In all honesty if Lincoln had just left well enough alone the 13 States in a future time could/would have come back of their own accord and without the burden of slavery. As you yourself pointed out (Governors did their own thing). The CSA wasn't perfect by any means, that is not the point. The point is, and always has been, those 13 states had every right to leave the Union and Lincoln stopped them by force of arms. If we are a country of Laws, or were, then Abe Lincoln changed that forever. He set the Bar, so to speak, and every President since has raised it; some more than others. If you don't or can't see that then your eyes are closed and nothing anyone can say will open them until someone in black comes knocking on your door and it will be to late then.

"Although he had gone to war to prevent coercion of a state by the national government, (Robert E.) Lee now believed the war would be lost unless the government in Richmond obtained the power to coerce men into the army." Page 430.

Just where is slavery mentioned?

Never the less those boys in Grey deserve all honor and respect for their stand on freedom and denying the Battle Flag to fly is showing the utmost disrespect to them and what they stood for as  "Stonewall" Jackson put it "our second war for Independence".

[Ga.windbreak]

Ironfoot I wanted to come back and say one other thing just so you know that I’m not looking at the Southern cause thru rose colored glasses.

I quote this from the book “Under God” page 259. In part it says “History is not a mathematical equation. You can’t add up the positives and subtract the negatives, and be left with the sum of a decade.”

 Yes Lincoln did a lot of good by standing against slavery, to his credit, but it does not cancel out his abuse of that same power to tear away Freedom from the People and the Constitution he swore to uphold. And, by the same token, I can’t wipe out the fact that although those boys in grey fought for my and your individual freedoms it doesn’t wipe away the fact that by fighting they prolonged slavery and begrudged that same freedom to others.

If we are to remain free we have to be aware of everything, good and bad, about our history which brings me back to the original topic of this thread. To take away any symbol of the war and its true understanding detracts from the reasons for it. If a minority gains freedom but lacks the true understanding of how they got it and what was given up to get it then, in my eyes at least, they are still not free. For you to not understand, or at least try to, that the loss of individual freedom because of what Lincoln did would be as bad as I not admitting that by the very fact that we also prolonged the cause of slavery by going to war. Although that war was thrust upon us and in my mind, thus done, we had no choice but to fight for out beliefs.

If you don’t believe that we lost individual freedoms I would direct you to read the 13th (which was never ratified by the way; unless you believe in coercion), 14th and 15th amendments. Now we are US citizens and subject to Federal law over State law which totally usurps the original intent of both the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

[torpedoman]

 I can see the reenactment of the next generation when the kids ask "who are the other guys?" It really won't make a lot of sense with only one flag but maybe by then it will be banned also.

[ironfoot]

"... those 13 states had every right to leave the Union and Lincoln stopped them by force of arms."
That is one of those statements that will continue to be debated, perhaps indefinitely.
Lincoln's view was that he was elected President of the whole country, not just the north.
If states can leave whenever they dislike the results of the last vote, it tends to make elections meaningless.
As far as war powers go, Lincoln said that the Constitution is not a suicide pact.
Like I said earlier, I have no problem with the Confederate flag at reinactments.
I agree that many boys in grey fought valiantly, and for many of them slavery was not the issue.
Their sacrifice is worthy of honor.
My point is rather narrow, that the secession was an effort to preserve slavery, that the Union entry into the war was to preserve the Union, and that to some the Confederate flag means repression, not honor and glory.

[Dee]

One NEEDS to look at "each" states CONSTITUTION, "individually". As I recall, my home state of Texas not only RESERVED the right to secede from the United States, but ALSO to divide into as many as THREE or more states if it so chose. Now it has been a while and I could be wrong on some of the info, but I am sure it is still available. At the time I was in school, in the fifties and sixties this HISTORY was taught in PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
I will still agree with Sam Houston that Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States cannot make it without Texas. 

This hogwash that ironfoot is propagating is nothing more than "federal crap" that has been repeated so many times it has become the perceived truth, but it is in fact not the truth.

HEAVY TARRIFS and HEAVY HANDEDNESS from the Washington D.C. and their greedy northern industry friends forced the hand of the FREE THINKING southerner, and the south did what it said it would do. The north was warned about the increase in tariffs on exports which were threatened by Lincoln if he won, and the south did what they said they would do.

ironfoot is promoting the self-righteous northern idea of stopping slavery, when the north was as guilty of slavery, as the south was.
It is a useless debate when actual history is ignored, in favor of a "liberal federal lie". But, that's just this old man's personal opinion, on keeping history FACTUAL.

[doc_kreipke]

Dee, methinks that you’re dropping a straw man onto ironfoot’s position. He’s not saying that the North fought to stop slavery. He said that the North fought to stop secession, and that secession had occurred mainly because of slavery. In the Confederate States' original declarations of secession, slavery gets a lot more verbiage than do tariffs, and Lincoln takes it in the ear more for his anti-slavery stance than his pro-tariff one.

The notion that the North fought the South in order to free the South’s slaves is an erroneous interpretation, but ironfoot hasn’t voiced that opinion, nor has it been proffered elsewhere on this forum.

[Ga.windbreak]

"... those 13 states had every right to leave the Union and Lincoln stopped them by force of arms."
That is one of those statements that will continue to be debated, perhaps indefinitely.
Lincoln's view was that he was elected President of the whole country, not just the north.
If states can leave whenever they dislike the results of the last vote, it tends to make elections meaningless.
As far as war powers go, Lincoln said that the Constitution is not a suicide pact.
Like I said earlier, I have no problem with the Confederate flag at reinactments.
I agree that many boys in grey fought valiantly, and for many of them slavery was not the issue.
Their sacrifice is worthy of honor.
My point is rather narrow, that the secession was an effort to preserve slavery, that the Union entry into the war was to preserve the Union, and that to some the Confederate flag means repression, not honor and glory.

ironfoot, you really disappoint me, I really though we might break some new ground here. Lincoln doesn't have the right to interpret the Constitution; that right belongs to the Supreme Court the last time I checked. But then if you shut down the court system as Lincoln did then I guess he figured he could pretty much do what ever he pleased which is what he did.

 So kind of you to give lip service to our boys in Grey, only many, not all? I would never say that about the boys in Blue, They gave their all for what they believed in and who am I to dishonor that by saying that only some of them deserve Honor, because I'm judging the way they thought, I wasn't there and didn't walk in their shoes. I will only go by what they did, which is to die in the service of their country, which not only earns but demands our respect.

Right on Dee !! 

[30-06man]

One NEEDS to look at "each" states CONSTITUTION, "individually". As I recall, my home state of Texas not only RESERVED the right to secede from the United States, but ALSO to divide into as many as THREE or more states if it so chose. Now it has been a while and I could be wrong on some of the info, but I am sure it is still available. At the time I was in school, in the fifties and sixties this HISTORY was taught in PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
I will still agree with Sam Houston that Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States cannot make it without Texas. 




This hogwash that ironfoot is propagating is nothing more than "federal crap" that has been repeated so many times it has become the perceived truth, but it is in fact not the truth.

HEAVY TARRIFS and HEAVY HANDEDNESS from the Washington D.C. and their greedy northern industry friends forced the hand of the FREE THINKING southerner, and the south did what it said it would do. The north was warned about the increase in tariffs on exports which were threatened by Lincoln if he won, and the south did what they said they would do.

ironfoot is promoting the self-righteous northern idea of stopping slavery, when the north was as guilty of slavery, as the south was.
It is a useless debate when actual history is ignored, in favor of a "liberal federal lie". But, that's just this old man's personal opinion, on keeping history FACTUAL.

"... those 13 states had every right to leave the Union and Lincoln stopped them by force of arms."
That is one of those statements that will continue to be debated, perhaps indefinitely.
Lincoln's view was that he was elected President of the whole country, not just the north.
If states can leave whenever they dislike the results of the last vote, it tends to make elections meaningless.
As far as war powers go, Lincoln said that the Constitution is not a suicide pact.
Like I said earlier, I have no problem with the Confederate flag at reinactments.
I agree that many boys in grey fought valiantly, and for many of them slavery was not the issue.
Their sacrifice is worthy of honor.
My point is rather narrow, that the secession was an effort to preserve slavery, that the Union entry into the war was to preserve the Union, and that to some the Confederate flag means repression, not honor and glory.

ironfoot, you really disappoint me, I really though we might break some new ground here. Lincoln doesn't have the right to interpret the Constitution; that right belongs to the Supreme Court the last time I checked. But then if you shut down the court system as Lincoln did then I guess he figured he could pretty much do what ever he pleased which is what he did.

 So kind of you to give lip service to our boys in Grey, only many, not all? I would never say that about the boys in Blue, They gave their all for what they believed in and who am I to dishonor that by saying that only some of them deserve Honor, because I'm judging the way they thought, I wasn't there and didn't walk in their shoes. I will only go by what they did, which is to die in the service of their country, which not only earns but demands our respect.

Right on Dee !! 

I agree 100%

[wncchester]

Lance:  "Ya know.........just sitting here thinking. Might get in trouble for saying this, but the Continental Soldiers were called Rebels. Jesus was called a Rebel. Maybe being called a Rebel ain't so bad after all?"

Right.  In fact, the labels on our Revolution and Civil War are both misnamed.  That's because history gets written by the winners and it's not always based on truth! 

Our Revolution was a true Civil War.  All through the English colonies, north to south, families were split and fighting between Tory relatives and rebel relatives was common.   Our Civil war was much more of a revolution.  The southern entire section of the nation rejected the north's years long efforts to dominate the South's agricultural economy and wanted to separate in peace if they would be allowed to do so.  The issue was not slavery, as such, but that was a big facet of it only because it was the only large labor force.   A peaceful seperation was not to be and so, yes a few families in the border states were split in allegiance but not many.  I suspect that a much higher percentage of families were split on both sides of WWII than in the war of 1861-65, but no one calls THAT one a "civil" war.

Labeling our fight a "civil war" was to put a nicer sounding and more politically correct imprint on the northern conqueror's actions than they deserved.