Author Topic: Teachers with Guns? Madison Wisconsin..... (Read 3107 times)

fe352v8 · « **Reply #30 on:** October 10, 2006, 07:19:07 AM »

Magooch,

I take you learned this first hand, as it were.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

pills · « **Reply #31 on:** October 10, 2006, 08:35:06 AM »

I took guns to school all the time. They were in my truck. The principal even knew we had them.

Class of 1996

nabob · « **Reply #32 on:** October 10, 2006, 10:16:11 AM »

"So arming a teacher or two would be rejected because there is a chance of injury to students...does that mean there is NO CHANCE of injury if the madman is allowed to have his way..as in Nickle Mines, Pa ?"

Nope. That is a false dichotomy, posing the question as having only two possible outcomes, one horrible. It is a logical fallacy.

First, the probability of this is pretty danged small. Arm teachers because of a 1 in a gazillion chance it will happen in one's school? Not a rational response. More people are bit by snakes each year. Perhaps we should all be carrying snakebite remedies?

Second, the liability issues are not inconsiderable. Suppose a gun is not secured? Suppose a teacher shoots the wrong kid?

Third, there are plenty of measures short of this that can work. I agree with a comment I heard today on the radio that said that schools had sort of become complacent in terms of doing common-sense security measures. Locking the doors, requiring identification, scheduling all visits, etc., are cheap, easy and effective.

I know we all like guns and think anyone should be able to carry anywhere. However, we should probably look at the problem in terms of what it is, not what we project onto it in terms of our political inclinations.

ironglow · « **Reply #33 on:** October 11, 2006, 06:00:08 AM »

So what is wrong with "deputising" a capable teacher ? Here in the liberal bastion of NY State we have deputy sheriffs stationed at most larger, centralized schools. Save that large cost..deputise a responsible teacher...

You seem worried about the state or county being sued if a deputised teacher "shoots the wrong child"..how would it be different for the state or county if a deputy sheriff "shot the wrong child" ?

...Or are we to assume that all teachers are incompetent klutzes ?..

nyhunter863 · « **Reply #34 on:** October 11, 2006, 06:07:24 AM »

I've had some nut job teachers in my day. Who is to say that some smart alec student starts to get under a gun toting teachers skin just a little too much and then the teacher flips out and goes postal on him and everyone else? Schools are for books and learning. Keep ALL guns out which includes guns of the bad guys AND the supposed good guys!!

ironglow · « **Reply #35 on:** October 11, 2006, 06:52:19 AM »

A deputized, capable teacher "flipping out"...I guess we are then expected to assume that all teachers are nutcases...

nyhunter863 · « **Reply #36 on:** October 11, 2006, 07:19:46 AM »

No, they are not all nutcases, although if there weren't ANY guns schools there would be NO need to worry about a teacher using one when they shouldn't or students getting their hands on them. As someone else mentioned, teachers will never be given guns. This could be taken to the bank! Giving guns to teachers is only a fantasy of those who think that a solution to everything comes through flaunting a gun. As was also mentioned these school shootings are still rare occurances. To start arming teachers now borders on paranioa.

troglodyte · « **Reply #37 on:** October 11, 2006, 12:42:22 PM »

I am a teacher - 21 years

They are my kids - I see them more than you do most days.

I am not the police. I am not a soldier. I am not an armed security or bodyguard. - I am their father, for as long as you have given them to me.

I will defend them - like my own.

I will die to protect them - with my dying hands if that's the best I can do.

Pray that horrible day never happens - keep praying.

Hope they are in my classroom if that horrible day happens - Pray that I may be swift, strong, and sure.

Allow me the tools to protect them to the best of my ability - with a reload or two.

I'm just another nutcase teacher that doesn't deserve to live or protect those in my charge. I guess that, just because I'm at school as opposed to anyother place I might legally carry, I'm going to lose all rational control and start pulling the trigger or I'm just going to leave my firearm just laying around. Such weak arguments. If a teacher has their CHL, let them carry as they choose.

..."if there weren't ANY guns (in) schools"... then we wouldn't need to have this discussion at all. There are guns in schools. There will be more acts of violence. It won't get any better until one of two things happens. One, society in general changes, or two, you let the people that are on-site the ability to deal with it. What's the chances of either happening....

nabob · « **Reply #38 on:** October 11, 2006, 11:16:47 PM »

I hope you also carry rattlesnake remedy, as there is a greater chance that you will need to use it.

More guns aren't the answer to every question.

williamlayton · « **Reply #39 on:** October 11, 2006, 11:49:06 PM »

More guns are not the answer?

That was not the question!!!
The real question is should a teacher be allowed to carry a handgun?
The answer is, of course, IF he/she wishes.
If he/she is qualified.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the simple facts of life are, and I am very sympathetic to those who lost children in any of these incidences, laws do not protect--they give a location for the paperwork to be filled out to report the incident.
Laws do not prevent--see above.
People die by the hands of others all the time and it will never stop in this lifetime!!!
Laws are not the answer.
Ethics and morals are the answer. Well now, what is the difference??
Soapbox is clear.
Blessings

fe352v8 · « **Reply #40 on:** October 12, 2006, 03:15:57 AM »

Thank you for your dedication, but you do not see them more than we do.

The average school year is 181 days, and lasts from 7:45 am till 2:45 pm, that’s 7 hours per day, or 1267 hours per year.

There are 8760 hours in a year, if a child sleeps 8 hours per day that’s 2920 hours, per year, that they are unconscious, leaving a total of 5840 waking moments, in a year. Which means, that during a child’s waking hours, you will spend just over 21.695% of the time that they are not asleep.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

ironglow · « **Reply #41 on:** October 12, 2006, 03:23:47 PM »

Fe352;
In an ideal situation, that is how many hours a child has with his Dad...then there is Dad's work, Dad's golf, or football TV..when dad may as well be out of the house..
Then there are meetings, business trips ...and about half the households, for various reasons ..have no Dad in them.

Shucks, in some cases, some kids don't even know who "Dad" is..

Don't get me wrong..you are probably a good Dad..

..But by the law of averages, in many cases...one would have to be a troglodyte ..not to see thatTroglodyte is probably close to the truth.

gunpilot · « **Reply #42 on:** October 23, 2006, 04:10:23 AM »

I stopped in Gander Mountain in Madison to look at handguns. None in the store. Clerk said it is illegal to sell hanguns in Madison. Not likely that teachers will be allowed to carry in liberal, Republican bashing gun hating Madison.

gypsyman · « **Reply #43 on:** October 23, 2006, 08:23:44 PM »

Since we're talking about schools, lets use a simple equation. More good people with guns=less bad people with guns. Kiss system

victorcharlie · « **Reply #44 on:** October 24, 2006, 01:33:07 AM »

Quote from: troglodyte on October 11, 2006, 12:42:22 PM

I am a teacher - 21 years

They are my kids - I see them more than you do most days.

I am not the police. I am not a soldier. I am not an armed security or bodyguard. - I am their father, for as long as you have given them to me.

I will defend them - like my own.

I will die to protect them - with my dying hands if that's the best I can do.

These are NOT your Kids, they are there parents kids.

Your are not there father.

Here in lies a major problem with the school sytem, which, the government requires those who can't afford a private school to use.

We send you our kids because we have no other choice.

You teach them reading, writing, and arithmatic, I'll teach them my values and I don't want them to learn yours.

We, as a free society, must take back control of our school system.

williamlayton · « **Reply #45 on:** October 24, 2006, 03:31:20 AM »

VC
I understand your thoughts---and I agree with you.
I am the parent of a schoolteacher and the husband of a retired schoolteacher.
You are not the norm---unfortunately.
The norm is 180 degrees from your world--unfortunately.
Teachers live in a world where they are expected by most, at least in this urban society I live in, to raise to teach and to MAKE the children learn. I have yet to understand how MAKING is possible with no influence fro parents. I guess it is another sign that most folks should be spaded and prevented from reproducing.
When you have CHILDREN in your class who witness and experience parents and relatives who die from violence, are in prison for drugs, who witness parents and relatives who do drugs, deal in drugs and consider this to be a norm it is evident someone has to try and deal with these attitudes and change them---the teacher.
My daughter is a counselor in a school where CHILDREN are sent because of lack of abilities to NOT act out as their parents do. It is a very structured school. the Children stay for up to 3 months. Police patrol the school (inside), drug dogs, searches, etc.
These are the ones who have run too the end of the regular schools ability to handle them. Children, not high school and there is not room for all of them. It is so very sad and the parents do not care. One childs mother was stabbed to death during a drug deal gone bad.
I have not figured out why parents demand the teachers to raise their children and then complain because the schools are the problem.
Blessings

williamlayton · « **Reply #46 on:** October 24, 2006, 03:41:43 AM »

THIS IS GOING TO SLAP MANY OF YOU IN THE FACE.
You folks have little or no idea what your children face each day in scool.
MOST of you folks have never taken the time to investigate.
MOST of you folks would be shocked by the influence others have over your children because you do not raise them, you just have no idea what is going on.
You folks I am talking too will not get your collective heads out of the sand and care enough to parent.
Most of you folks are going to wake up at night and cry out "what has happened".
You folks need to be tarred and feathered for ever having children.
Bill

victorcharlie · « **Reply #47 on:** October 24, 2006, 04:19:41 AM »

Well said William.

One only needs to look to The Communist Manefesto" to understand.

Karl Marx clearly states that the creation and control of a public school system is key to replacing a capitalist society with a socialist society.

The government sets the agenda and teaches our children what they want them to learn.......hopefully, making good socialist when they become adults.

Ever wonder why the Audubon society is allowed in the school but ducks unlimited isn't?

troglodyte · « **Reply #48 on:** October 24, 2006, 01:37:40 PM »

VictorCharlie,

I'm not sure where to start. You essentially attack me for having the mindset that I will protect YOUR child like he or she is my own child. How many people would do that? If your child is in my class, he is "my" child and I will treat him with the same respect and dignity I afford my own children. If you take offense my comments, you have taken them too literally. I do see many of "my" kids more than their parents do. I do care for "my" kids for as long as you let them be in my class. When school is over, they are yours. When they are in class they are your precious child that I have a soulful responsibility over. I do not take that lightly.

You have a choice in which school your kids go to. Private schools (and I currently teach at one and my kids attend) are expensive and they are not always the answer. Home school if you can but I see many that can't, for whatever reason. You can move to another district, state, or country for that matter. You have choices, you just do not choose to exercise them. That is your decision and you have your reasons, all viable, that is fine with me but don't go into a tirade at me about government and schools and how teachers want to warp your kids' brains. Short of that exercise, step up and do something positive for the school your kids attend. I'm not going to defend the school system as a whole, there's plenty of problems; from kids, parents, teachers, and administrators to politics, government, and society, but there are good public schools and lots of good teachers. That's one reason I got into teaching, to try to make what little difference I could in the "system" and try to have a positive influence on a few kids.

Please, I beg of you, teach them your morals, ethics, and values, you strike me as a man that I would ride with for the long haul, but do not discredit my morals, ethics, and values when you don't even know me. It is our free society that has made the schools what they are. Please, take them back but don't jump on me because you don't like your kid's school or the system. You might find that I am more on your side than you think. William summed it up pretty well, we have too many parents committing parental malpractice, even at our private, middle-class, white bread, school. Many parents have even committed parental suicide. Many times it is the teacher that is left to try to make something of this child. If nothing else, we try to show the kid we care and pray they make it. No, not all teachers take this personal of an approach but many of us do.

I'm sorry if I stepped on your toes and invaded your parental space.

If you still don't care for my wording in my previous post or this one, that's fine, I'll leave it here. If your kids are in my class I will still love them and protect them whether you like me or not. I have made that decision regardless of what you wish.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #49 on:** October 25, 2006, 07:56:17 AM »

First, I must apologize for what seems like a personal attack. Having reread my post I can see how you might view it that way.

I am frustrated by the liberal left who has a death grip on most school systems. I’m tired of equating money to education. I’m tired of the attempt to teach our children sex education and propagating the gay lifestyle. I’m tired of Washington setting the agenda and doing such things as “the Y2K” classrooms while the buildings are in need of repair and the roof leaks. I’m tired of our children being taught in school that their parent’s lifestyle is criminal and thus you’re doing them a favor by turning them in. I’m tired of them being taught that animals have rights and that there is no obligation to god or country. I'm tired of big government who whats to control our childrens thought process.

I’m starting to rant.

The point is it’s not you, nor your character I question, but rather the institution itself.

I must say, when my daughter decided to home school I was skeptical. Then she asked me “Do you really want your grandchildren to learn what they teach them in public school?”

Having thought about it, home schooling seems like a very good idea.

Sorry to have offended you sir.

nabob · « **Reply #50 on:** October 25, 2006, 09:44:37 AM »

Good gravy!! Where do your kids go to school? I'm all in favor of sex education but there is nothing in my child's curriculum that promotes homosexuality in any of its facets. No child in my district gets taught that the parent's lifestyle is criminal and to turn them in for anything. They aren't taught that animals have rights but they are taught that animals can feel pain and to treat them with respect due any sentient being. They are not taught that they have no obligation to our country. God, though, is something I don't think they SHOULD be teaching - I'll handle that.

One big thing I'll agree with you on - the involvement of Washington, which has led to "teaching to the test" instead of teaching.

nyhunter863 · « **Reply #51 on:** October 25, 2006, 10:37:51 AM »

It is amazing how many in this country feel that everything that is taught in school is a threat. I can tell these people that the world has changed, not always for the better, but it HAS changed and there is NO going back to the 1800's like many in this country seem to want. We have got to be the only nation under the sun to argue such nonsense to death and in the meantime even children in third world nations are learning more than ours. It is well past time to stop arguing whether God, Darwin, Creationism, Homosexuality. etc. should or should not be mentioned in our schools and get back to teaching the basics that the kids are definitely not learning anymore!! Our stupid political arguments are making our kids and our society a bunch of dummies!

victorcharlie · « **Reply #52 on:** October 25, 2006, 01:51:48 PM »

Quote from: nabob on October 25, 2006, 09:44:37 AM

Good gravy!! Where do your kids go to school? I'm all in favor of sex education but there is nothing in my child's curriculum that promotes homosexuality in any of its facets. No child in my district gets taught that the parent's lifestyle is criminal and to turn them in for anything. They aren't taught that animals have rights but they are taught that animals can feel pain and to treat them with respect due any sentient being. They are not taught that they have no obligation to our country. God, though, is something I don't think they SHOULD be teaching - I'll handle that.

One big thing I'll agree with you on - the involvement of Washington, which has led to "teaching to the test" instead of teaching.

At least we agree on one thing.

ironglow · « **Reply #53 on:** October 25, 2006, 03:19:22 PM »

NYhunter863;

I do agree with you that such things a homosexuality being normal, Darwinism, creationism and evolution should not be taught in in public school, since none of them have been truly proven as a verifiable, scientific fact. Favoring one of these over the other is where the disputes originate.

I have reviewed your posts in this thread and although you probably didn't mean it that way..you seem to have an irrational fear of guns.

Let's face it; it is a bunch of fellow NYers that have presented us with the twin perils of Schumer and Clinton...and much because of their irrational fears of guns..and perhaps of hard work and free enterprise..

Nabob: Absolutely nothing wrong with "teaching to a test "..let's not be silly..

Do we want our, truck drivers, doctors, lawyers. veterinarians, accountants, airline pilots, air traffic controllers and many more folks to be tested..or do we just take their word for it ..and give them a "free pass" ?

In most municipalities, even carpenters, plumbers, glasiers and chefs are tested..along with a host of other trades ..

There is simply no better way to spot check how the educational system is working.
..
.But of course, some incompetents don't want that, along with their unions...

Thusfar, incompetent teachers have gotten away with their incompetency...simply because the students were either not being tested..or they were being "graded on the curve"..which means nothing in a poor school...

That just tells us if the student is one of the very bad students or just a fairly bad student...

Surely, if schools left out the save-the-whales, condom on a cuke, unity-thru-diversity ( an oxymoron), women's lib and homosexual "causes" along with dropping all that "politically correct" baloney..the may be able to teach the three Rs..successfully..

troglodyte · « **Reply #54 on:** October 25, 2006, 04:11:18 PM »

VC - I understand your frustration.

Between the two of us, all is good.

nabob · « **Reply #55 on:** October 25, 2006, 11:54:31 PM »

Quote

Nabob: Absolutely nothing wrong with "teaching to a test "..let's not be silly..

Do we want our, truck drivers, doctors, lawyers. veterinarians, accountants, airline pilots, air traffic controllers and many more folks to be tested..or do we just take their word for it ..and give them a "free pass" ?

In most municipalities, even carpenters, plumbers, glasiers and chefs are tested..along with a host of other trades ..

There is simply no better way to spot check how the educational system is working.
..
.But of course, some incompetents don't want that, along with their unions...

Once again, you pose a false dichotomy as if those were the only two choices. Such a black and white world you live in, a series of on/off switches that get activated. How about a third choice, such as teaching to the needs of the child instead of what some bureaucrat in Washington thinks is the need of the child?

Being in favor of federal control in the manner you suggest is an odd concept for someone who, as an avowed Republican, ought to be against bigger government. One more example of how there is no real difference these days between Dems and Republicans. Both want to control localities and people from Washington with bigger and bigger government and more and more intrusion into our lives, then try to pass it off by demonizing the opposition instead of admitting the power grab they are making.

Pretty typical.

nyhunter863 · « **Reply #56 on:** October 26, 2006, 02:01:57 AM »

Ironglow, just how do you come to the conclusion that I have an irrational fear of guns? By saying that they don't belong in schools? I will stick with this opinion. Schools should be for learning, NOT an armed camp!

ironglow · « **Reply #57 on:** October 26, 2006, 07:48:00 AM »

NYhunter863;
When I spoke of possibly deputizing selected, responsible teachers to be allowed to carry in order to be the "last ditch" defense for children (as troglodyte so aptly described it)..you came up with a statement such as "when a teacher flips out and goes postal"..when you reach that far..we had best disarm the state troopers, sheriff's deputies and local police, because it is just as possible to happen with them..

Other statements by you..

" those that think the that the solution to everything is through flaunting a gun"

" schools should be for learning, NOT an armed camp!"

Again; I was speaking about selecting one or two tested, responsible teachers for CCW..that is definitely not "Flaunting" or

making the school an "armed camp"..

Keeping that in mind...your statements that I put in parenthesis, sounds like something the anti second amendment Schumer or Clinton wouild spout to " gun control" bunch of zombies..

Nabob;
The students should be tested somehow..not left to go willy-nilly...no genuine standards, as is now done in many schools...and I don't have to prove that deficency...we can see it in everyday life...

nyhunter863 · « **Reply #58 on:** October 26, 2006, 08:07:43 AM »

Ironglow, so anyone who might not want teachers or anyone else to have guns in schools is automatically a Schumer and Clinton supporter?? I am a levelheaded guy and realize that guns have there place, but schools are NOT the place in my opinion. You can continue your efforts to get teachers to carry guns, but I am quite certain you will never see it happen. It won't be Schumer or Clinton's fault either. I am sure that the majority of Americans would not stand for such a thing either.

pills · « **Reply #59 on:** October 26, 2006, 09:24:46 AM »

About 5 years ago in tulsa there was an armed security guard who was properly trained to carry a gun. He successfully passed his MMPI. A former student came in and was causing trouble. Started some stuff with this guy that carried outside. FS had no weapon. Before it was over the security guard had pulled and fired his weapon. Missed the intended target and hit a kid across the road. Luckily the kid had a banned cell phone in his pocket.

Wanna make that worse? They moved the the SG to another school. When the media and parents found this out the fecal matter hit the rotating blades.

I think a teacher with a proven track record of stability might be a better option than a 23 year old with no experience dealing with kids.