Information about powder choice

[waelkhntr]

Sometime ago I ask for assistance to choosing a bullet for my TC black diamond for elk. It was suggested to try the 460 grain pure lead bullets from either Noexcuses or Bullshop. The bullets at No excuse are nearly 2.5 times more expensive than Bullshop. I don't mind spending the extra money if they are that much better. Any input would be helpful.

Also any suggestion about powder such as Goex versus Pyrodex vs 777, pellets vs loose powder. I'm willing to try each but would like to draw you your experience and knowledge.

Thanks,
Terry

[†·ĦÙŃŦÈŔ·†]

Goex is pretty dirty - Pyrodex is a little cleaner and Tripple "7" is the cleanest { this is in terms of cleaning your muzzle loader}

Pellets against Power - hummm... put it to ya this way - my gun shoots a nice group w/ 150 grs. 3-50pr pellets. Shoots the best group w/ 135grs of powder ( can't get that load w/ pellets)

 I guess what I'm saying is that with loose powder and some time at the range you can really dial your gun in ...




P.S. I use Tripple "7" powder.

[Biff Mayhem]

Sometime ago I ask for assistance to choosing a bullet for my TC black diamond for elk. It was suggested to try the 460 grain pure lead bullets from either Noexcuses or Bullshop. The bullets at No excuse are nearly 2.5 times more expensive than Bullshop. I don't mind spending the extra money if they are that much better. Any input would be helpful.

No Excuses ARE NOT 2-1/2 times more expensive than Bullshop "ALL-LEAD" bullets. They are not even twice as much. What you are seeing in prices there on the front page are the cheaper "alloy-composition" Bullshop bullets. When ordering, you need to request the all-lead bullets and the gas checks. Both are an additional cost per bullet. The No Excuses are all-lead.

Since the price of of economical conicals concerns you, then powder choice is simple. Loose powder is much cheaper than pellets. Pyrodex & Goex are less costly than 777.

[waelkhntr]

Biff,  I think that you misunderstood my question about the cost of the bullets. I'm not concerned with the cost if there is a good reason to pay more. As for the powder cost I don't want to buy the cheapest I want to buy the best. To do that I need and want information from people such as yourself that have experience with different bullets and powder... etc.

Thanks for the information about the bullets I should have read the home page closer.

Terry

 

[Sturgeon]

WAELHTNR
My partner uses NE 460gr. conicals with his Black diamond with great effect.  I have used them with my Knights to great effect as well.  Now with my Whites I've started using Bullshops 500 gr. NEI, (503 dia. from NE will fall outta the tube, but the 504's from bullshop are started with fingers but still seat tight).  We use T7 fffg and a wads, breechplugs are wrapped with teflon tape and lubed with Slick 50.  I've tried Swiss black and it shot great, but clean up was really messy and the incidence of seized breechplugs increased dramatically....

[waelkhntr]

Thanks Sturgeon,
I just ordered two boxes of the 460 gr pure lead conicals from the Bullshop.
Does your friend use loose powder or pellets?
I think that I'm going to try both Pyrodex and 777 pellets and loose and see which works best.
Any other suggestions!!!

Terry

[Sturgeon]

WAELKHNTR,
Loose powder (pellets aren't legal here in OR),  loose is much more economical and allows for much more flexibility in tailoring a load for your rifle.     My $.02
Good hunting

P.S.
If shooting loose you really don't need/want anything more than a hot #11 (RWS#1075), 209's are really overkill (though cheap), really dirty, and may unseat your bullet b4 the powder has ignited... your mileage may vary

[Busta]

Thanks Sturgeon,
I just ordered two boxes of the 460 gr pure lead conicals from the Bullshop.
Does your friend use loose powder or pellets?
I think that I'm going to try both Pyrodex and 777 pellets and loose and see which works best.
Any other suggestions!!!

Terry

waelkhunter,

Pellets and Conicals don't mix. Seriously, they were never made for each other. Use loose powder only with conicals. I like 777 in FFFG granulation and FFG second best. Start around 70 grains if using 777 and work up in 5 grain intervals. Seems most rifles like between 75 and 85 grains. I shoot a 430 and the 460 you ordered with 85 grains 777 FFFG, kills elk dead. My load is really more like 90 grains to start, but I tap my measure 10 times to settle the charge. 777 is about 15% hotter than Black Powder & Pyrodex, so that 85 grain settled load of 777 FFFG is about the equivelant of 105 grains of Black or Pyrodex.

[gt2003]

Call Cecil at prbullet.com.  He will hook you up with the bullet you need to use.  I used to be concerned about price of bullets until I lost multiple deer using the Hornady XTP bullet.  I think my powder charge was just too light.  I was literally to the point of hanging up my muzzleloader until I found the precision rifle all lead bullet.  Don't be so concerned about cost.  Find something that will work well and work consistently.  Sometimes you get what you pay for.  Good luck, Greg

[waelkhntr]

Thanks everyone for the advise.
There seem to be a misunderstanding about my concern over costs. In my first post I mentioned the difference in cost between two bullet companys. I misread the home page of one of the companies and didn't realize that I was comparing apples to oranges. 
I'm not concerned about cost only value. I will pay whatever it costs to get a good accurate load that will kill elk dead.

Please keep giving me advice and information.

[Busta]

waelkhunter,

Those 460's you ordered from Bullshop will kill anything in North America with the right loose powder load behind them. I use a Vegetable Fiber Gasket Wad from Sagebrush that is also marketed through Cabelas with the Cabelas name on the package. They are $17.99 through Sagebrush for 1000. They are .060" thick and .518" in diameter, and fit very snug in the bore making for a good seal between powder and lead bullet. These will allow you to increase your powder load without leading or cutting lead off the base of your bullet. If you get your loads too hot without a wad you will essentially be melting the base of the bullet and your accuracy will suffer, not to mention the lead in your barrel. Sagebrush wads can also be had in the .030" thick size to the left of the .060" ones. These are the ones I use .060 50 cal.=.518 dia ~ Item# S-26518.

This is the link to Sagebrush wads. Scroll down between 1/4 and 1/3 of the way down the page to Over Powder Wads, click on the pics to see what they are. Others use felt wads or card wads, but these work best for me.

http://www.sagebrushproducts.com/ShootingProducts.htm

What diameter 460's did you order from Bullshop? You can order them sized at .500", .501", .502", .503", .5035", .504", and .5045" I believe at the moment, those larger sizes being done for the White Rifles of course. Your T/C will probably want a .500", .501", or maybe a .502 maximum, depending on your individual bore. These are what you call slip fit bullets, they will go down your bore quite easy with slight engraving from the rifling. You can load and shoot these things all day without swabbing if you want. For best size you will want about .001" of engraving on your bullet. This will be enough to keep it on your charge and will obturate into your rifling when you touch it off.

The beggest problem with shooting conicals out of a T/C is the QLA (false muzzle) at the end of your barrel. Some are bored of center of the bore and rob accuracy as a result. I have never seen a rifle with a QLA shoot conicals as well as a rifle that does not have one. This is why so many of the QLA's get cut off.

Check your PM for more.

[Biff Mayhem]

I would recommend the .503s for your T/C.

[waelkhntr]

Thanks for the help Busta.
I will order the Sagebrush wads this morning. The QLA was one of the reasons that I selected the TC BD. I will look into having it removed if I can't get good accuracy.

Terry

[Two Bears]

Call Cecil at prbullet.com.  He will hook you up with the bullet you need to use.  I used to be concerned about price of bullets until I lost multiple deer using the Hornady XTP bullet.  I think my powder charge was just too light.  I was literally to the point of hanging up my muzzleloader until I found the precision rifle all lead bullet.  Don't be so concerned about cost.  Find something that will work well and work consistently.  Sometimes you get what you pay for.  Good luck, Greg

YOUR KIDDING RIGHT ? ? ? ? 

You can not possibly believe that the Hornady XTP bullet has anything to do with not retreiving your deer, What a bunch of crap!

That bullet is VERY capable of taking deer, bear, Elk, Moose and doing devistating wound chanels when passing through the animal while being shot through a muzzleloader.

I would suspect that your shot placement was the culprit or you take too long of shots and the bullet has no more energy to do the job, OR you do not track very well, push the animal after the shot. There could be other things that could result in the loos of a deer like shooting in low light (before legal or after legal shooting times) and not getting a good hit.......

That bullet was designed for a pistol and they extand at about 900 feet per second, your muzzleloader is well above that and have more than enough energy to get the XTP bullet to expand.

There are 2 XTP bullets one is the XTP and the other is designed for the .454 cassull and it expands at a little higher velocity it is called a MAGNUM and says so on the box. I have shot the Magnum XTP on several deer and did not notice any difference on the dead deer or the wound chanel.

I have taken countless deer with the XTP bullet and it always did the job, No lost deer using it. I only recovered 1 bullet in all of the years shooting deer with it and it was a Magnum XTP and it expanded perfectly ( the picture of that bullet is in the photo album here ) while using 80 grains of powder.

The wound chanels are awesome and the blood trails are good enough that a blind man could follow.

 

[waelkhntr]

two bears,
Thanks for the info on the XTP bullets.
Here in Washington State we can use sabots but the bullet must be non-jacketed pure lead at least 170 grains.

Terry

[Busta]

waelkhunter,

If you can use saboted bullets (didn't know that!), the Buffalo Bullet SSB is a AWESOME bullet that will probably shoot well out of your T/C with QLA. They are swadged all lead bullets and are tougher than heck. They come in different weights and can be had at places like Cabelas, etc,. White markets a version of the SSB as a Power Star Sabot if you want to go up to 435 grains? VERY accurate in my White (1-24 twist) with two Pyrodex pellets (or 90 grains Pyrodex P) and will slobber knocker anything in North America. Buffalo Bullet Company doesn't have a website that I am aware of either. I cannot recommend the the Buffalo Bullet Conicals however, because you have to pound them down your barrel, have a hollow base, and don't shoot worth a hoot in my rifles. Probably due to hammering them down the barrel.