Author Topic: Lucky first shot! (Read 1938 times)

perklo · « **on:** October 07, 2006, 01:33:34 PM »

So I'd taken the peep sight off and messed with a few things, then put the sight back on my Sidekick. And I changed my bullet/load combo.

This is my first shot today @ 50 yards:

That's spooky - but it is almost Halloween! ; )

Here's the peep set-up on the sidekick:

It only took 4 more shots to be good at 100 yards...

- perklo

Busta · « **Reply #1 on:** October 07, 2006, 04:10:51 PM »

Did ya put some eyes and the rest of the mouth on that pumkin spot? I see he already had a nose. Nice looking rig Perklo, looks like my Huntsman when we go to Colorado.

mangulator · « **Reply #2 on:** October 08, 2006, 06:05:51 AM »

Nice shot, thats a nice looking rifle!

MI.sabot · « **Reply #3 on:** October 08, 2006, 08:53:43 AM »

Can anyone give me some info on those peep sights?

Where to get them, how much, installation instructions, advantages/disadvantage, etc.
How are they in low light situations?
(My vision isn't the greatest so I guess this is a concern to me vs. the open sights).

I haven't had a chance to shoot my Sidekick yet. Is this the way to go short of scoping it?
I'm looking at this as possibly a way to enhance performance without making a significant investment in a scope.
It's questionable just how much I'll be able to get out during ML season, if at all.
That's my primary reason for not scoping it right now.

perklo · « **Reply #4 on:** October 09, 2006, 04:58:23 AM »

It's the one-piece fiber optic Williams front that comes on Sidekicks of recent production. The rear is a Williams WGRS adjustable sight. The current production Sidekicks and Huntsmans come with everything you need except the rear elevator that accepts the peep adaptor, the peep adaptor and a peep aperture.

The rear's made to attach with two screws forward of the chamber where the factory rear sight goes. I moved it to the rear to sit on top the chamber, but due to hole spacing, it is only retained by one screw...

I added the brass outlined aperture (called a "Twilight Aperture) in either .050 or .093. There are two larger apertures, but I found them TOO large to be accurate.

If you have the older, plastic sights on a Huntsman, you can call Williams and tell them you want the WRGS-HR rear sight, a .050 or .093 Twilight Aperture and ask for the one-piece metal Firesight (their name for fiber-optics) ramp that fits an H&R/NEF muzzleloader.

1-800-530-9028 is their tollfree line.

- perklo

Busta · « **Reply #5 on:** October 09, 2006, 06:50:23 AM »

You can get the WGRS-H&R peep sight complete from H&R/NEF Customer Service. It don't have the little brass ring for the twilight, but I put one on mine. I really don't see much difference in the twilight aperature and the standard .093" one that comes with it. I paid $18 for mine last year and it is part # R03019, you won't find it any cheaper anywhere else. Williams is getting $35 for the same thing. If you already have the front Fire-Sight, you will be all set. If you need the front Fire-Sight, the part # is S03198 and cost me a whopping $4.95 last year.

The WGRS-H&R will screw right into the two rear scope base holes on any of the H&R/NEF's. The standard Huntsman/Sidekick front Fire-Sight is the height you will want too. The only thing is the front Fire-Sight is a little larger diameter than some like, but it works well for me. I used that setup for a elk at 46 yards and a whitetail at 170 last year. Neither one complained a bit.

MI.sabot · « **Reply #6 on:** October 09, 2006, 07:17:20 AM »

Thanks for the replies.
Mine is a current production Stainless Sidekick.
It sounds like I just need the rear peep.

.

perklo · « **Reply #7 on:** October 09, 2006, 11:03:39 AM »

busta,

Going to Colorada was my main reason to put the Sidekick into that configuration...

I don't know when that trip's agonna happen, but that's the gun I'm taking!

I have a spare front sight, ramrod and breech plug - now I just need to get in shape, apply and budget for the Elk tags!

I'm 48 and that's on my "thangs to do before turning 55" short list...

- perklo

MI.sabot · « **Reply #8 on:** October 09, 2006, 11:46:38 AM »

Thank you for the previous responses, but upon reading them again I need clarification of a couple points.

First, I'm a bit confused regarding the rear peep placement:

Quote

Busta said: The WGRS-H&R will screw right into the two rear scope base holes on any of the H&R/NEF's

Quote

Perklo said:The rear's made to attach with two screws forward of the chamber where the factory rear sight goes. I moved it to the rear to sit on top the chamber, but due to hole spacing, it is only retained by one screw...

The responses seem to contradict each other.
It's obvious from Perklo's picture where his placement is, albeit secured with only one screw, but is the peep sight meant to align with the scope base holes or the holes where the current rear factory open sights sit??

Secondly, I read in another GBO Forum that others have had to install higher front sights.
Busta you addressed this and I just wanted to confirm that the current production front FireSights are just fine....is this correct?
Mine is not long range Colorado open coutry shooting. I'm talking about shots within 100 yds. Am I still good with the factory front sight?

FINALLY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: What are the advantages or disadvantages to the peep vs. the open sights?
In a way, are the effects / purpose of the WGRS peep sight similar to the peep I have installed on my bow string?

Thanks again.

Busta · « **Reply #9 on:** October 09, 2006, 05:35:05 PM »

MI.sabot,

The WGRS-H&R mounts into the rear two holes for the scope base. I think what Perklo said was he took his standard rear Fire-Sight base and moved it back to the receiver position. The screw hole spacing is different on the standard rear sight base. He then purchased just the PEEP SLIDE and PEEP APERATURE instead of the whole WGRS-H&R. At least that is the way I read it. You can get the whole rear peep, slide and base setup for about $18 (2005 Price) from H&R.

The receiver peep sight is generally superior, due to the much longer sighting radius (distance from front sight to rear). This is the same principle as a archery target shooter with the extended sight bracket that sticks out 1 to 2 feet in front of the riser (longer sighting radius).

You should be fine with the standard front Fire-Sight that comes standard on all late model Huntsman/Sidekicks. Mine is a 2003 model and came with the crappy PLASTIC front and rear fiber optics which I replaced with the current production Williams Fire-Sights. The front Fire sight and the WGRS-H&R were made for each other. The standard rear Fire-Sight on the other hand finds you near the top of the ramp and are not the best match however.

Where is your rear sight positioned on the ramp scale? If it is in the upper half you will be fine with the front sight you have. My rear Fire-Sight is off the scale shooting the heavy 460 grain conicals, WGRS is in the top 1/4 of the scale. Shooting 200-300 grain saboted bullets, the Fire-Sight is in the top 1/4 and the WGRS is betseen 1/2 and 3/4. If you put a taller front sight, it would be way too high.

Remember, my barrel is only 24" and if yours is the 26" your sight radius will be a little longer, so that will have a little effect on position. From the looks of Perklo's pics you will be fine.

Perklo,

You will absolutely love Colorado. I hate coming home and watching the Rockies dissapear in my rear view mirror.

perklo · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2006, 04:57:14 AM »

MI.sabot and Busta,

Busta is correct, the rear I moved is not a WRGS-HR, and the spacing is different. The HR model was made for the Buffalo Classic I think, and designed to go in place of the scope. I wanted the peep close to my eye, and moved the sight back from the position in this view marked by the two empty holes forward of the chamber:

Note the rear hole has no screw/hole under it. I used lots of medium strength loctite on the one screw though!

As to front sight height, using the 348 grain powerbelts, 100 gr. loose Pyrodex select at 100 yard zero, the rear sight is MAXED out on my Sidekick, but hits dead-on:

So it is possible that you might need a taller sight on any individual gun, also varying by load/bullet combo.

I hope this helps...

Busta,

Maybe you'll run into a tall, lanky guy with a Sidekick one day in the Rockies... If so, it will be a good meeting!

- perklo

Busta · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2006, 07:20:06 AM »

MI.sabot,

In Perklo's Example, a shorter front sight would put him closer to the center of his scale. A higher front site would have his rear sight way high off the scale. So if anything a guy would want a slightly shorter front site, but is not neccessary to have a functional sight. Mine are at the top end of the scale also, so I would suggest you try the standard front Fire-Sight and I think you will be happy.

Remember this, if you raise the height of the front sight, you will have to raise the rear sight along with it to stay on the same plane. This would put you way over the ramp on the rear sight.

If you install a shorter front sight, you will have to lower your rear sight to stay on the same plane. This will put you back down into the scale on the rear sight as long as you don't go too short, then you would be below the scale.

Of course this all pertains to what type of bullet you are shooting (heavy or light). I would say on most rifles you will be at the top of the scale with heavy bullets, slightly lower with the lighter bullets, but overall in the top half of the scale.

If my digital camera wasn't broke, I would post you a couple pics.

I guess that will be the first thing on our Christmas list.

Perklo,

I'll keep an eye out for ya!

I'll be the guy with a Huntsman that looks just like your Sidekick.

MI.sabot · « **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2006, 01:18:47 PM »

Thank you Busta and Perklo.
This forum is a great source of info for novices like myself.
I'd rather go through some of the trial and error here in the forum than at the range or in the field.

Would you both agree the peep is better than open-sights and a viable alternative to scoping it?

Thanks again.

Busta · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2006, 03:34:47 PM »

Quote from: MI.sabot on October 10, 2006, 01:18:47 PM

Thank you Busta and Perklo.
This forum is a great source of info for novices like myself.
I'd rather go through some of the trial and error here in the forum than at the range or in the field.

Would you both agree the peep is better than open-sights and a viable alternative to scoping it?

Thanks again.

I can't speak for perklo, but I would say a peep is better than open sights for ME, you might want to look through one first if you are not sure.

When I hunt in Colorado, I can't use a scope so a peep is the next best thing for me. When I hunt in Michigan, I usually use the scope except for last year.

I left the peep on and took a big doe the last day of the muzzleloader season at 170 yards. I had a very steady rest, knew the yardage, and the doe was grazing and motionless, otherwise I would have passed. That was the longest shot I have ever taken at a deer with any weapon, dropped her right in her tracks. I would have never even considered that shot with open sights. When I was in the Air Force we used to shoot the M-16 out to 460 meters with the peep sight. The rear peep on the M-16 had two peeps on a "L" shaped lever that you pivoted back and forth, one short range (0-300 meters), and a long range (300-460 meters). Get to know your trajectory by shooting at several yardages, then laminate and tape your cheat sheet to your stock for hold over.

perklo · « **Reply #14 on:** October 11, 2006, 04:14:32 AM »

MI.sabot,

While no iron sights can equal a quality scope for accurate shot placement, a peep sight is about as accurate as they can get. I use the next to the smallest Twilight aperture Williams makes (.093) and I can shoot about a 3-4" group at 100 yards from a rest. That's way smaller than the "pie plate" sized vitals on a deer+ sized critter.

With a good scope on my Huntsman, I shoot a 2" or less group - but either way, the meat's in the freezer!

I also learned to like the peep sights training on a M16 - after 9/11 I joined a state reserve that provides additional security forces at various National Guard bases in my state. It's pretty amazing how you CAN hit a man-sized target at 300-500 meters using iron sights, but I'm no master class shooter and the military training work for me!

If you have doubts, try your Sidekick with just the factory open sights, see how you do and if you don't feel comfortable hunting with the resulting accuracy put a scope on it. If you do feel comfortable with the iron sights, move up to the peep sight and you should LOVE it...

Good luck - perklo

Kart29 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 11, 2006, 04:50:37 AM »

I bought the WGRS-HR peep sight for my Huntsman barrel and installed it using the two rearmost scope mount screws. I did not change the front sight - just left on the standard firesight front that came on the barrel.

I just sighted it in last weekend but find my adjustments are just the opposite of Busta's. I had to adjust my rear peep far to the bottom of the adjustment range. It's adjusted below the scale on the side. This was using 295 grain powerbelt and sighted 2" hiigh at 50 yards. I didn't have a enough time to sight it in for 100 yards.

Maybe if I start shooting heavier bullets and sighting in at 100 yards I'll have to move the sight up the ramp. Anyway, it seems the WGRS-HR is usable with the factory front sight whether shooting relatively light bullets at short ranges or heavy bullets at longer ranges. There appears to be adequate adjustment in both directions.

I find the peep sight to be a big improvement over the standard sights. I know it's possible to shoot pretty accurately with the factory sights, but I think it takes more concentration. For me the big advantage of the peep is just simplicity. Just look through the peep, put the bead where you want to hit and go. For me it eliminates needing to check the alignment of the bead in the rear sight notch. At muzzleloader ranges, I don't feel like I need a scope to shoot big game - especially since I hunt in the woods. A scope just adds a complication and potential for problems in my muzzleloader hunting.

Busta · « **Reply #16 on:** October 11, 2006, 08:56:44 AM »

Just goes to show you, every barrel is different, never know what you are going to get. I guess you will have to let your barrel tell you what height you will need. I thought they would be in the same general range, but maybe not.

MI.sabot · « **Reply #17 on:** November 07, 2006, 09:54:13 AM »

Just received my Williams peep sight in the mail today from H&R.
Still $18.00 + $3.50 shipping. Not a bad deal.
Thanks guys for the suggestion.

Will get around to mounting it in the next couple days.
It doesn't look like I shouldl have any issues with either the elevation of the peep of front optic blade/bead.

My only concern is still this:

How is the peep in LOW light situations?
Would the open sitghts be better under these conditions?

Thanks

MI.sabot · « **Reply #18 on:** November 07, 2006, 03:48:54 PM »

Well the question in the previous post is now moot.

I mounted the peep without any problem.
However, I couldn't get any kind of clear sight picture when looking through it.
Not the fault of the peep, just my poor vision.
Disappointed to say the least because the concept of using a peep vs. scoping it was very appealing.

I put the factory fiber optics back on and was able to readily pick up the front bead and rear sights.
Just going to have to make do for now.

Well thanks again guys for all the info and insight.
I'll be calling H&R in the morning to see if I can return it.

Carphunter · « **Reply #19 on:** November 10, 2006, 03:03:51 AM »

I'll probably replace the rear fiber sight on my encore with one of these. I can't see from any of the pics....is the windage and elevation on threaded screws that move the sight... or is it a loosen it up...move it...tighten it down type of affair?

MI.sabot · « **Reply #20 on:** November 10, 2006, 09:45:39 AM »

The windage and elevation adjustments is a....loosen the screw....move it up, down, left and right....tigten it back up!

Sure wish it would have worked for me. Hope you have better luck.

MI.sabot · « **Reply #21 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:36:25 PM »

I'm still disappointed that the peep and my vision were not compatable.
I was just thinking, was there any way to adjust the peep that I ordered (and sent back) to better pick up the front sight?
Or, are there different size apperatures available that likewise would make that front sight picture clearer?