45/70 or 30/30

[troglodyte]

This may be a slightly different "which caliber is best" question.

Long story short.  Bear in camp full of kids, three different occasions in 7 years. Carrying an  870 12 ga. through the brush is not ideal. 

I am looking at getting a Marlin 336 30-30 or a 1895 in 45/70 for defensive purposes against NM black bear.  I know that shot placement is critical but if under charge or suprised, shot placement could be iffy so I need to know how the 30-30 would be for such a situation.  I'm thinking the 45/70 would be a little more forgiving but would it be enough to matter?  A quick look at an energy table shows, at close range, the 45/70 and 1 oz. slugs are almost identical.  The 30-30 is about 500 ft-lbs less.

OK, I now await your sage discussion.  I'm leaning towards the 45/70 with the shorter barrel but if the 30-30 is going to be able to do the job, I'll be more than happy to get the 30-30.  They're cheaper and so is the ammo.

For all of you worried about the kids or bear or me, good judgement reigns.  I do not wish to shoot the bear but I will if necessary to protect the kids.  I am also very aware of things downrange.  I would never shoot in or around the kids unless it was absolutely necessary. 

About me...Good enough shot to hold my own.  Hunt upland so I don't own a rifle save my grandmother's .22 single shot but have shot friend's rifles enough to be familiar.  Would love to have an excuse to start picking up a couple of centerfires.  I would love to pick up one of each but alas, there is the issue of funding such a purchase.  My children like to eat.

More details or information if you want it.  I was trying to keep this as short as possible.

[Coyote Hunter]

troglodyte –

I own lever guns in .30-30, .375 Winchester, .44 Magnum and .45-70.  For close range work stopping a bear there is no question which one I would want in my hands.  The .45-70 wins hands down - preferably a short-barrel Marlin Guide Gun stoked with heavy bullets.

That said, I used the .44 Mag carbine for camp duty for many years when the girls were young. 

[oso45-70]

Troglodyte.

I must come own on the side of Coyote Hunter on this one, Not that the 30-30 would not do the job but if the shot happened to be off a little your chances of getting the job done would be better, and besides that if you ever wanted to hunt Elk or deer or even a bear you would be set to go. You do know that the northern part of NM does have some nice Elk don't you ?.  Good luck sir and stay safe.........Joe.........

[victorcharlie]

Same here.......I'd take the 45.70.......for all the same reasons.....

[Mac11700]

I am looking at getting a Marlin 336 30-30 or a 1895 in 45/70 for defensive purposes against NM black bear...Carrying an  870 12 ga. through the brush is not ideal.

Maybe not a full stocked 30" Wingmaster...but...as a defensive weapon...a 18" pistol gripped 870 is certainly a better short range defensive weapon...provided this is the weapons purpose...and not doubling as your hunting weapon as well...When carried with a Uzi type sling...very fast...very deadly.....Now...don't get me wrong...I'm only going on what you wrote of it's intended purpose...and I love my 45-70 XLR...but having a well equiped shot gun isn't a bad idea...heck...ask some of the guys up north in Alaska...

Mac

[daddywpb]

I would take the 45/70 without a second thought. I'm sure the .30/30 has killed a lot of bears, but if it's a defensive situation, you need mass and weight. The 45/70 can give you both. .458 bullets compared to .308 - 500 grain bullets compared to 170. It's a no brainer.

That being said, my own choice for a scenario like the one you presented would be a heavy caliber, short barreled handgun. The new Ruger Alaskan jumps to mind, or a Super Redhawk in 454 Casull or 480 Ruger. A handgun is a lot easier to keep in your reach at all times - on your belt. Marlin Guide Guns are great. I own two, one in 44 Magnum and one in 45/70, and use them both, but if I had reason to believe I could face a charge from any kind of bear, I'd have a Ruger Alaskan on my hip.

Just my 2 cents.

[Redhawk1]

The 45-70 would be my choice. 

[308Win]

troglodyte,The 45-70 is vary good Bear medicine with all the knockdown power you need in a Bear emergency scenario.You stated you really don't want to shoot/hurt the Bear and the 870 is out of the question.The 870 can be loaded with one shell of hard rubber Buck Shot for stinging and running off the Bear,if the Bear doesn't back off follow up shots with 12Ga Slugs loaded behind the rubber Buck Shot in the 870 tube come into play.Many people forget about the assume power of a 12Ga Slug.

[cwlongshot]

I think you had it correct the first time. The 12 GA is A #1 bear defence!

 Yes the 45-70 will get you a good sized bullet for good penetration. Its not a bad choice and would be my pic if I didn't know what a 12 GA REMINGTON 870 was.

Trust me, in the hands of someone who can shoot one, there is NOTHING better!! Shot guns are WAY under rated as defensive tools.


Get yourself a short barrel, because as MAC wrote a 30 duck blaster is less than ideal. But a slug barrel or a 18.5 shortie would fit the bill nice. Many gun shops have a barrel of barrels and you can get one cheap. that or another 30" duck barrel and a hack saw!!
 BE SURE TO HEEP THE BARREL MORE THAN 18 INCHES TO BE LEGAL!
 Personally, I like 19" as my ruler may be different than Johnny laws. For your use, don't worry about the bead up front. A shot gun is a point and shoot weapon.

 Load it with reg rem/win/fed slugs and go shoot it. see where it shoots. Ger some buck shot, see how that shoots as well. Pick one or load both. the slugs will penetrate more but up close the buck shot will do equally as well.

I have a short H&R that goes with me every time I go camping. If I am going to a really inhospitably spot, my 1911 is on my hip and 870 close at hand.

Here is my 870:





Good luck and I sincerely hope you wont need ANY of these. But ones gotta be prepared.

CW

[Coyote Hunter]

With all due respect to those that advocate a shotgun with buckshot of any kind, or a handgun, the primary purpose of the weapon in question is the defense of OTHERS, not the bearer.  Is such a situation I would much prefer a single slug to multiple projectiles and the more controllable long gun.  I’d take any short barrel (18” to 20”) and single projectiles under those conditions. 

The problem is shots may have to be taken when a child is downrange and in very close proximity to the bear, perhaps being mauled.  Say you’re 40 yards away in that situation – would you still prefer buckshot or a handgun? 

[308Win]

With all due respect to those that advocate a shotgun with buckshot of any kind, or a handgun, the primary purpose of the weapon in question is the defense of OTHERS, not the bearer.  Is such a situation I would much prefer a single slug to multiple projectiles and the more controllable long gun.  I’d take any short barrel (18” to 20”) and single projectiles under those conditions. 

The problem is shots may have to be taken when a child is downrange and in very close proximity to the bear, perhaps being mauled.  Say you’re 40 yards away in that situation – would you still prefer buckshot or a handgun? 

Coyote Hunter,I agree with you but troglodyte made the statement that he really didn't want to shoot the Bear.I myself would dump the Bear at the first sign of aggression.

[troglodyte]

Ah, the wonders of a good discussion.   Good points made.

I feel sheepish that I didn't think of getting a rifled barrel for my 870.  Around here shotguns are for birds.  I could load it with one round of rubber slug to encourage momma bruin and balanced with slugs in case she decides otherwise.  I will keep this one on the front burner.

I'm still leaning towards the 45/70 but the 870 with a rifled barrel has got me intrigued.

The first bear occurance we had in camp was before we brought a long gun along.  A couple of us travelled with our pistols but we never considered that we would need a long gun.  The game warden brought us a Mossy 500 and 3 rubber slugs with the instructions to "shoot it in the rump".  As the situation turned out, I had to shoot a charging bear (at me) at about 20 feet with a rubber bullet.  Thankfully the bear decided to high-tail it the other way.  It did make me wonder what would have happened if I missed or the bear kept coming.  (As a matter of fact, I did consider it after I pulled the trigger.  I figured if the bear came through the smoke, I would jab it with the muzzle as hard as I could and pull the trigger again.  Funny how time slows.)  I decided that I wasn't going back to camp without more firepower.  (Jokes about Barney Fife may be inserted here.)

So I brought my 870 with slugs the next year and have done so since.

This year I had to follow the bears through a bit of brush so we could keep a visual on them.  While some may question the sanity of this (I did) I figured it was the only way to keep up with where the bears were so we could definitively say they were out of camp.  Crawling (sometimes) throught the bush with a bird gun brought me to the realization that I needed something more compact.  I don't doubt the power of a slug but a long smoothbore and bead sight, I questioned how effective I might be in tight brush.  Of course, at a range of feet, I would hope that I couldn't miss but stranger things happen. 

A handgun is, well, just a handgun.  Even the hottest loads come out around the energy of a 30-30 (my apologizes to all the handloaders out there that have mega ballistics loaded up.  I buy off-the-shelf).  A S&W .500 gets up to a 45/70 but I would think there would be no follow up shot with the recoil that must have.  I do carry a .41 with Corbons for up close and personnal encounters.  I admit that it is pretty anemic compared to the monster calibers out there now but it is what I have and I can hit with it and have the opportunity for a follow up shot quickly. 

There is also the consideration, as mentioned by CH, that a shot at range may be taken. Again, not what I would want to do but you never know and I would rather have the option than not and need it. 

As for shooting the bear.  I am not at our church youth camp to start popping primers.  I am, for lack of a better term, the safety/facilities guy.  I am responsible for the well-being of those at camp.  Generally I chase bats out of the bath house,  rescue garter snakes from the 5th grade boys, or fight the dreaded toilet monsters with my 10 ga plunger.  If I can move the bear out of camp without any incident, that is what I want to do.  If the situation arises that I have got to pull the trigger on a real round, have no doubts I will.  I do not want to inform a parent that a bear mauled their child, especially when I might have been able to prevent it.  I want something that will do the job whether up close or at a reasonable range. 

Thanks for all the input.  You have got me thinking on some things.

I am willing to entertain more discussion.

Now I'm off to the Remington site to see what they have in rifled barrels....

[cwlongshot]

With all due respect to those that advocate a shotgun with buckshot of any kind, or a handgun, the primary purpose of the weapon in question is the defense of OTHERS, not the bearer.  Is such a situation I would much prefer a single slug to multiple projectiles and the more controllable long gun.  I’d take any short barrel (18” to 20”) and single projectiles under those conditions. 

The problem is shots may have to be taken when a child is downrange and in very close proximity to the bear, perhaps being mauled.  Say you’re 40 yards away in that situation – would you still prefer buckshot or a handgun? 

 Understood, buck shot in that situation could create a no shoot situation. Slugs would be best in that scenario.

And using a hand gun...ADSOLUTELY. I stake my life on one daily. If I didn't think it could do the job I wouldn't carry it. Not everyone is as proficient with one. If you cannot hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, you may want to look else where for protection.

 Remember we are talking BLK BEARS here, NOT Grizzly's. Your average Blk wants NOTHING to do with you and a shot to the ground or over the head will likely do the trick. If No the average Bear on the east coast is man sized. The 1911 45acp will easily handle that situation.

Troglodyte,
 Mine is NOT a rifled barrel. It is a screw-in choke, rifle sited, SMOOTH bore.
 While you could shoot buck shot out of it with out harm to you or the gun. it would be miserably INACCURATE at anything but five/ten FEET from the bbl. A smooth bore is PLENTY accurate for your purpose's. Its DEFENSIVE, if you start needing to shoot at 50yrds that's NOT defensive. 50 yards may be too close for comfort and only a shot across the bow is whats called for. If the bear turns to charge, just shoot center mass, the slugs/buck shot will do the rest.


CW

[308Win]

troglodyte,Just being inquisitive that's" ALL".But is seems you may have some reservations about killing an animal from your first post?I have witnessed this a hunter having a Deer in his sights but unable to squeeze the trigger.

[troglodyte]

308 - I understand how you could read this into what I posted.  In an effort to cover all my bases I may have been too brief.  I didn't want someone thinking I was just waiting for the bear to come into camp and then commence firing into a parade ground of kids.  I apologize for my misspeak. 

I have no reservation about shooting the animal if it presents itself as a threat.   On the other hand, just because we happen to be in it's backyard for a couple of weeks doesn't mean I have to shoot on sight.  There are a lot more issues at hand in a camp with 200 people than if it was just me a couple of buddies.  If I can diffuse the situation and get it out of camp and it stays out until we are gone, then it can have the camp the rest of the year for all I care.  I have found that to herd a blackie  you have to push it, get in close and make it uncomfortable.  The problem is it may feel threatened and decided to come after you. In that case, I want to be adequately prepared.  If I ever decide to get a bear tag, I know where I'm going to hunt.

CH - Good point about blackies and handguns and that they're not grizzlies.  They are a curious lot but can usually be scared off by the "shot across the bow" or just a lot of posturing.  I do keep the .41 handy.  I meant no offense.  I have just run across a number of individuals on such boards that believe if you don't have the latest hand howitzer that anything lesser just won't do.


Gentlemen, I appreciate your discussion.

[308Win]

troglodyte,One thing I know for fact about Black Bears,Black Bears love dumpsters and diapers we in NYS had a baby killed some years back.The Game Warden told us Bears love diapers and that is what he was after,but he was on his way to a dumpster.Our chicken coop has been destroyed many nights.Loggers have been severely attacked from boon dock Sows with cubs,not all Black Bears fear us.

[troglodyte]

Good point.  From what research I can find, if a black bear decides to attack you, it is serious and means to do you harm.  The old advice of rolling up and playing dead does not seem to be sound advice for a black bear.

[Coyote Hunter]

troglodyte -

No offense taken.  If you are protecting 200 people there is no way you can keep them all within the range I would be comfortable using a handgun.  (I shoot my iron-sighted .357 Mag out to 200 yards using the steel gongs as targets.  Don't hit much at that range though.  I do much better with the scoped .44 Mag, but I wouldn't choose or recommend a scoped handgun for this kind of defensive work.)

When it comes to long guns, I used a 10-shot .44 Mag carbine for camp duty for many years.  It's lightweight and is easily "enough gun" at defensive ranges out to 100 yards.  I still like the .45-70 in a Guide Gun configuration, but would carefully select the loads used to ensure controllability.  (Someone mentioned the issue of recoil which is a legitimate concern.)  Standard Remington 405g fodder would do nicely.

[B_Koes]

Good point.  From what research I can find, if a black bear decides to attack you, it is serious and means to do you harm.  The old advice of rolling up and playing dead does not seem to be sound advice for a black bear.

I can't claim to be a bear expert, but I've always heard the opposite.  You should be aggressive towards an intrusive blackie...still, I think I'd like his chances over mine if the posturing contest became an eating contest!!

[Lloyd Smale]

not to many rifles compare to the fast handling, accuracy and hard hitting ability of a properly loaded 4570 lever shooting hardcast and that includes many of the african hunting calibers. Hunting bear it would be a toss up as either would work just fine but if ones comming  angry theres no comparison

[Dand]

Trog, Use what you know.

I'd suggest if you are very familiar and proficient with your 870 - stick with it and get a short barrel.  The fastest shooters I've seen are the quail  shooters and such.  And if you are real familiar with your shot gun then you won't get messed up in a tight situation.  Get some of those Remington buckhammer square front slugs or the Brenneke magnums and you can whack anything that threatens - oh, and take out the magazine plug or get an ammo band for the butt for some spare ammo. Put a sling on it too if you haven't already.

I'm not sure but you might find that the shotgun is lighter to carry than the rifle.  And shotguns are made to take a lot of crummy weather and conditions.

I once was trying to scare off a brown bear with unfamiliar shotgun.  Luckily it DID run off but I was left struggling to operate the thing. I'm mostly a bolt gun guy and not used to Ithaca m37 operation.

I bought myself a Mossberg 500 and practiced with it. I was surprised how accurate I could be with a cylinder barrel, bead front sight with conventional slugs at about 20 yards. I also liked that is was a bit lighter to carry than my rifles.  I can tell you if you are carrying a gun day in day out, lighter is nicer.

Alaska Fish and Game staff mostly carry 12 gauges and they have accounted for a number of close calls very well - brown bear, black bear, moose.

I agree, don't discount a black bear if it charges. They are still a tough animal and like some say, once in a charge might be more determined to hurt you.  Some of our scariest bear stories in Alaska come from black bear. It is fortunate that they are smaller and that seems to make them easier to stop.

I carry a 41 mag and 250 to 265  Corbons (or Federal 250) and I live in brown bear country. Have never drawn it for such use and it might not be the best choice but its what I have - I think I'd be too flinchy with a 454 or similar and the guns are too heavy.  And I do like the concept of having a gun on me rather than leaning against a tree.  With the 41 Corbons I'd think it would be fine for black bear. Those bullets penetrate really well.

I am just ordering some 41 cal  250 gr jacketed bullets from a new maker in Bend Oregon.  He has a short note on GB New Products.  Looks like they might be a great thumper.

This is not to detract from the great Marlin 45-70 but you could save yourself some $$ and it would take a while for you to become as proficient with the rifle as you are currently with your 870.

[troglodyte]

B Koes - I think you may have misread my post concerning playing dead with a blackie.  I do NOT advocate that practice.  Studies seem to show you need to fight a blackie tooth and nail if it attacks.  Having never been attacted by one I can't say first hand...and I would rather keep it that way.  I do know that if you talk to one like you would a high school kid who's in trouble, it seems to listen to the tone of your voice and take notice.  Again, not a lot of scientific research but I have gotten to talk persuasively to a couple of bears for an hour or so up close and personally.

I think I have come to some conclusions.  I will stick with my 870 and see about getting a shorter barrel or getting one carefully cut down.  At the same time I am going to be on the lookout for a good experienced 45/70 and get to know it.

Toting it around is not a big concern as it will stayed secured in my bunk until it is needed.  I won't be carrying it around all day.  I don't even carry the pistol all day (maybe I should) but usually at dawn and dusk/night.  This is when we see the most movement.

Dand - Thanks for the lead on the .41 bullets, I'll give them a peek.

Gentlemen, I thank you for your input, wisdom, and discussion. 

Mike

[ba_50]

If a rubber bullet will discourage a bear, a 30/30 should too.

[ought6]

Having shot game with both, no question - the 45-70, without a doubt, strikes like Thor's hammer.  If I need to shoot something that's equipped to bite back, I'd go 400 grains on up loaded as hot as safely possible.  There is also no question in the scenario that you mentioned that a slug loaded 870 would do well also.  However, shotgun slugs will never approach the penetration a well constructed .45 caliber bullet will.

[S.S.]

A RUBBER bullet for Bear?
It would at least give him something to play with after
he finished Knawing upon you...
I would stick with the shotgun with a slug up the spout
and alternate 000 Buck and Slugs in the Magazine.
A camp full of Kids is a scary scenario to be dis-charging
any type of firearm though. A .45-70 is going through
probably no matter where you hit except length wise.
For that matter a .30-30 is too! A soft lead slug will probably exit with
less remaining energy due to Flattening out a great deal in the animal.
Lead Slugs transfer energy really well on impact. I have found that Black
bears startle pretty easily and will normally run if they can.  A loud blank
or a round that air-bursts will probably send them on their way. We used to use those
rounds to scare jays away from our Pecan Trees and they are extremely loud.
They shoot something like a Big Fire-cracker out about 60 or 70 Yards.
Bad thing is, that bear Will come Back...
There are some really interesting .12 ga. rounds on the market. Experiment
with some and I am sure you can come up with an almost perfect Anti-Bear
Shotgun. If you really want to get Crazy on a bear try a round called
"Dragons Breath"... Just have a fire Extinguisher handy. The only reason I
even bring up these rounds is because they do not carry very far to possibly injure
one of the Kids at camp. (By the way, Dragons Breath is Loaded with powdered
Magnesium and shoots a fireball of about 2500 degrees to a range of about 75 feet)
Close your eyes the instant you pull the trigger or you will not see anything for several
minutes.

[tanoose]

For my camp it would be a .45/70 guide gun with buffalo boire 430 hard cast or grizzly factory 420 or 460 CP bullets.

[DirtyDan]

45-70, Stainless (or blue) Guide Gun with 350gr bullets (or heavier) and a good set of peep sights. Then PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. When you can keep 5 for 5 in an 8 inch circle at 40-50 yds, off hand, then and only then, would I say you are qualified for the task you state.

[RLB]

For a camp gun I use a stoeger double barrel I use 3in buckshot..plenty for anything..and the fastest two shots ever..I bought this gun used for $150.00..

Robert....

[glshop20]

There is something to be said for a large caliber that make a THUNK when it hits and leaves a large hole in what it hits.  Large hole =lots of bleeding and shock.  45-70 without a doubt.  405 grain bullets at whatever velocity(pressure) your rifle will handle.

[rickt300]

Of the two black bears I have shot one was sort of in defence of a woman. I was in line at the Onalaska Wa. dump when a black bear leaped out of the lower part of the dump, a jump of about 12 feet into the bed of a pickup truck that a lady was dumping her trash out of. She starts screaming and the bear starts growling and making nasty faces at her. I pulled out my Winchester 30-30 at hit the bear in the neck just in front of the shoulder and dropped her in the back of the truck. I was using 150 grain factory corelocts and the bullet exited after breaking some shoulder blade, centering the vertabrae in the neck where it is reasonably significant. I have recovered so few bullets fired from game with various 30-30 rifles that I can only conclude the rifle has plenty of penetration and I usually shoot 150 grain bullets. The light recoil makes for good shot placement and the rifles are light and handy enough to keep around. About the bear issue. I had to go to court three times to get the charges of shooting a bear out of season and in a city limits dismissed. Washington state looks at things a bit oddly!