Author Topic: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?  (Read 3181 times)

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Offline Coyote Hunter

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300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« on: October 10, 2006, 03:57:31 AM »
Some people seem to think that its always possible to "get closer" and that hunters who take a (pick your range, but 300 yards is a common number) or longer shot are somehow less of a "hunter" and more of a "shooter".

There is no doubt that some "hunters" are merely people wandering around the woods with the weapon of their choice and that they are inept in the art of hunting as well as the art of using their weapon.  This thread, however, is not about such people.  It is not about the "general case" but rather about specific individuals and their skills, and the question of whether or not it really IS always possible to "get closer".

I think the answer is "No, it is not".  In the 25 years I've been hunting Colroado big game I have gotten close enough to deer to reach out and touch them and have turned down quite a few shots at elk at rock-throwing distance.  Nevertheless there have also been years when I was thankful that I could finally narrow the range down to 350 yards or even SEE an animal that matched my license.

Unfortunately there are often factors at work that are beyond the control of the hunter.  Over the years I have seen many situations where it was impossible to "get closer" and a decision had to be made to shoot or go home empty handed.  The wise hunter, IMHO, is prepared for the far shot as well as the close one.



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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2006, 05:29:50 AM »
The primary problem I have with most poke and hope shooting is, if it's not possible to get closer, how are you gonna get the animal out??  Also, if you shoot and the animal runs off, are you gonna be ethical enough, or even skilled enough, to go to the spot where the quarry was standing to check for blood and such?  I talked to some guys (out of state) in Wyoming.  They were real happy.  They had "rolled a goat" at 785 "lazered" yards.  I asked if he was a good one?  "Yeah, he looked pretty good thru the spotting scope."  To make a long story short, no, they had not gone over where the antelope was. "He had gotten up and run off and he was moving pretty good so they figured he wasn't hurt too bad." 
I am not tarring you nor anyone else with the same brush that should have been used on those fellows but when someone talks about long range shooting, that's the story that comes to mind.
I read a story by one of the fellows that do the long range shooting thing.  It was very studied and definitive.  The folks that take that sort of stuff seriously work hard at practice and accumulating the specialized equipment needed to do the task properly.  And the challlenge requires some special techniques.  Most of the folks in the deer woods are Joe Box-a-year that has maybe verified his rifles zero acrost the hood of a truck or leaning against a tree.  But he reads a story (or, more likely, sees something on TV) about shooting a deer at extended ranges and figures "well, if they can, I can." 
Some folks have got to turn everything into a (censored word) measuring contest.  I feel the contest is really between me and the deer.  If I shoot a deer at 300 yards, he probably isn't even aware that I'm anywhere around.  I have proved that I am practiced or lucky and I have proved that I have good equipment but I can't see how it proves I am a good hunter.

Offline jro45

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2006, 05:39:40 AM »
Myself I feel that to be able to shoot from 300 yds to 600 yds you have to have the equipment to do that like a scope that is set up for those ranges. Almost any rifle can shoot that far but does it have the power to do the job. And to make a shot at a long range you have to have a steady rest to shoot off of.

It would be long range shooting and hunting combined.

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2006, 05:54:04 AM »
I think the 300yd deal comes about because most high intensity cartridges will shoot to max point blank range there with a 10" or 8" target. Thats why I call it that way. Actually some come in a little short on range and some a little long. There are some people very capabile of shooting at longer ranges than that but the farther away from the muzzle, the greater the margin for error. Also the farther away from the muzzle, the harder to judge things like wind. Those things also effect shooting even to the 300yd distence, but somewhere you have to think that when shooting at animals, enough is enough.

Is beyond 300yds more of a shooter and less of a hunter? Well it takes a lot more skill to shoot well at 300+ yds than it does to get within 300- yds to shoot. I realize that sometimes you just can't get closer than a very long way and I though about that a while back so I tried a short experiment. I just started walking at deer out beyond 300 yds. Some left fairly quick but most let me get close to what I'd estimate as around 350- yds befor moving off. Then I tried walking at them but at an angle. Pretty much the same thing, there seems to be a range in open country where they run out of comfort zone. In heavier cover or what the deer seems to precieve as cover, they let me get closer. Several years ago I was hunting in a white T-shirt and a group of does let me walk right at them to within under 100yds. I did stop and stand still when they picked up their heads. They left not in a hurry when they did but were obviously getting uncomfortable.

I mention these things because I think hunting is a skill that increases in difficculty at some range under 300yds, the farther under, the greater the skill required. Yet out to 300yds shooting is no big deal IF the person doing the shooting puts in the time to practice and learn. Using the 8" target and max point blank range, the trajectory of the bullet usually falls off out there at 300+ or - yds to where the shooter must now bring in shooting skills. Shooting beyond 300yds is definatelly shooting, not hunting.

I think to many, not all, people shoot at those long ranges because they lack hunting skills and think that the cartridge their using will make up for their lack of shooting skill. Yet I doubt that anyone that has those shooting skills will agree with that, that the cartridge will make up for a lack of skill. People that have developed those skills have had to shoot a lot at those rangs to develope them. If you don't have access to 300+yd shooting ranges, you'll never be a 300+yd shooter!

One of the things I do notice is that at some point most everybody decides that the range is excessive and it's no longer hunting. ie, one individual I know of, not personally, thinks shooting at 600 yds is alright but when the subject of 1000yd hunting came up he refused to call it hunting, he was very upset! But if it's alright to raise the sights to "hunt" at 600yds then why is it not alright to raise the sights a bit more to "hunt" at 1000yds? I believe it's because neither is hunting, both are shooting.

Sure hope I haven't strayed off the topic to much. But when your as vocal as I have been about this stuff, ya really ought to try to better explain yourself.
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline 308Win

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2006, 06:30:30 AM »
Timothy Mcvay,took an Iraqis soldiers head off with a 50Cal at 1000yds good calculation on his part I say.
How much money must we spend before we learn to concentrate on the front sight?"Col Jeff Cooper"

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2006, 06:57:16 AM »
Timothy Mcvay,took an Iraqis soldiers head off with a 50Cal at 1000yds good calculation on his part I say.

He also blew up a building in Oklahoma. So what does that have to do with weather 300+ yds is hunting or shooting?
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline 308Win

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2006, 07:08:09 AM »
Total content of message deleted by Graybeard as a double violation of the TOS. It was both a personal attack and name calling, both forbidden by the GBO TOS. Graybeard
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Offline huntswithdogs

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2006, 07:10:10 AM »
Out West or in some of the southern beanfields, such long shots are needed--- at times. In the south where I hunt, such shots are ususally the figment of some guy's imagination."When I seen him and shot, he was right at 300 steps from me !" He didn't say that those steps were down one ridge and up the other,which calculates to about 100 yds or less.
If a hunter has put in his time practicing at long ranges , not only from the bench but hunting positions also, has a GOOD rest and has lived right for the past year, take the shot. If these items can't be met, GO HOME EMPTY HANDED. God knows I've gone home without the buck that I MIGHT have been able to kill plenty of times. As for the 2 guys that were mentioned earlier and their Speed goat...I'd have reported them to the nearest Gamewarden. NOt only is unethical, its unlawful.

HWD  

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2006, 07:16:54 AM »
Some people seem to think that its always possible to "get closer" and that hunters whot take a (pick your range, but 300 yards is a common number) or longer shot are somehow less of a "hunter" and more of a "shooter".

There is no doubt that some "hunters" are merely people wandering around the woods with the weapon of their choice and that they are inept in the art of hunting as well as the art of using their weapon.  This thread, however, is not about such people.  It is not about the "general case" but rather about specific individuals and their skills, and the question of whether or not it really IS always possible to "get closer".

I think the answer is "No, it is not".  In the 25 years I've been hunting Colroado big game I have gotten close enough to deer to reach out and touch them and have turned down quite a few shots at elk at rock-throwing distance.  Nevertheless there have also been years when I was thankful that I could finally narrow the range down to 350 yards or even SEE an animal that matched my license.

Unfortunately there are often factors at work that are beyond the control of the hunter.  Over the years I have seen many situations where it was impossible to "get closer" and a decision had to be made to shoot or go home empty handed.  The wise hunter, IMHO, is prepared for the far shot as well as the close one.





I thought I was going to be the one to screw this up! It's not about what's possible or even right or wrong, I don't think. It's about weather its hunting or shooting, I thought!
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline 308Win

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2006, 07:30:48 AM »
If you say it's not hunting people start shooting at you,if you say it is hunting shots are coming your way also.I myself would not take a shot,if I thought I could not humanly kill that animal before it hit the ground.Dead on it's feet in other words and that's hunting.
How much money must we spend before we learn to concentrate on the front sight?"Col Jeff Cooper"

Offline jro45

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2006, 10:06:19 AM »
I feel that it takes shooting skills to be able to hunt in some cases. You can hunt with a knife but it still takes skills or you can hunt with a rifle and use those skills for short or long range.

Offline 308Win

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2006, 11:34:16 AM »
I feel that it takes shooting skills to be able to hunt in some cases. You can hunt with a knife but it still takes skills or you can hunt with a rifle and use those skills for short or long range.

Yes it does take skill to kill quickly!I have shot Deer I didn't even want because some fool with a Bow stuck an arrow in it,who probably just bought the Bow at Wal-Mart and became a Bow hunter.
How much money must we spend before we learn to concentrate on the front sight?"Col Jeff Cooper"

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2006, 11:35:41 AM »
I think thats a mistaken belief. It takes no shooting skills to hunt and it takes no hunting skills to shoot. They are two different things. The hunting ends when the shooting begins. And we never start shooting until we've finished the hunt. If you decide that the shot must be 100yds or less then your not going to go shooting befor you get there. On the other hand, if you decide your going to shoot from 500yds, at 500yds the hunt will end if you have the animal in a spot you want. Hunting and shooting; two different things!
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Graybeard

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2006, 12:00:41 PM »
The primary problem I have with most poke and hope shooting is, if it's not possible to get closer, how are you gonna get the animal out??  Also, if you shoot and the animal runs off, are you gonna be ethical enough, or even skilled enough, to go to the spot where the quarry was standing to check for blood and such?  I talked to some guys (out of state) in Wyoming.  They were real happy.  They had "rolled a goat" at 785 "lazered" yards.  I asked if he was a good one?  "Yeah, he looked pretty good thru the spotting scope."  To make a long story short, no, they had not gone over where the antelope was. "He had gotten up and run off and he was moving pretty good so they figured he wasn't hurt too bad." 


Since I'm reasonably sure that a recent post or two of mine are the reason this thread was posted I guess I'll jump in here and make some comments. First up I'm sure MANY of you THINK you know where I stand on the issue yet in fact I seriously doubt a single member of this site does. I've never actually set it down in a post before, I'm not sure I'll even try to fully explain it now but will likely provide more insight that I have in the past.

I've used beemanbeme's quote above because it helps to explain a lot of the feeling I have regarding long range shooting. Yes I know EVERY SINGLE ONE of you will deny you've ever done any such or ever would do such. And perhaps that's 100% truthful or at least as far as you KNOW it to be truthful.

BUT HONESTLY how many of you EVERY SINGLE TIME you fire a shot go to the EXACT spot the animal was standing, are able to find that exact spot and then spend a minimum of 2-4 hours searching for the animal or signs of a definite hit or miss? Pardon my French but Damn few I'll bet. So how do you KNOW if you do or don't fit that category?

Now back to a bit more of my personal position on long range shooting.

For each and every one of us some different distance constitutes LONG RANGE. It varies based on skill levels, gun/ammo/sighting device used. It varies based on practice as well. I assert to you that NO ONE on the face of this earth is a long range shooter IF they've not practiced it enough to KNOW not suspect BUT KNOW where their bullet will hit way out there and even then not unless they have a LOT Of practice doping the wind under the kinda wind conditions that exist at the time of the shot. And folks it's one hell of a lot different to be popping prairie puddles with a varmint rifle and big game with a magnum rifle.

Sure I've killed prairie dogs out past 450 yards with a varmint rifle from a solid bench. I've missed some out there too and I've walked shots in with the help of others. On big game that's just not acceptable, the first shot needs to be RIGHT not close.

Few shooters east of the Mississippi river have a place to even shoot a gun at the long ranges taken as common out west. Most eastern hunters going west will have sighted in their rifles at 100 yards and be some fixed amount high at that range and from charts or ballistics programs will have estimated where their bullets should be hitting at longer ranges. Too many doing this don't even have a chrono to KNOW not guess the velocity of their rounds. Nope this isn't the case with all but is with too many and those of us who know you only from what you post on the internet cannot know which you are.

I've seen too many at public shooting ranges who can't even keep their shots on an 8.5"x11"  target sheet and some who can't even keep them on a box the new refrigerator came in at 100 yards. Yet I know for a fact some of those same folks travel west and shoot at many hundreds of yards and some do the same here in the south over open green fields.

Most (no I didn't say all) "supposed hunters" who shoot at long range expect the animal to fall over right on the spot like they do on TV and if they don't then they assume a clean miss and carry merrily on looking for another one to either miss or wound. Now this to me applies to those folks who shoot at what is for them long range but it at times applies to folks in thick woods as well. Too many of them even shoot, see the deer run off, heck it might have been running when the shot was fired and they assume clean miss and go on looking for another.

None of those folks in my opinion and by my definition qualify as hunters. Perhaps that's because I use the term HUNTER in a bit broader sense than some do. To me it also infers that the person is a SPORTSMAN, another term with no finite definition we can all agree on. To me a hunter is a person who wishes to go out, match wits with a given quarry and hopefully come home from time to time the winner of that battle of wits. To me a hunter is one who doesn't take unfair or illegal advantage of aids such as baiting, who doesn't snipe from so far away that a hit is at best to be considered luck and who doesn't use illegal tactics to get the game. Now that's not to say that where legal there is anything wrong with baiting. This is another issue about which my thoughts differ from most of the rest of you likely. To me there is precious little real world difference in hunting over a pile of bait, a green field or other food plot or in a natural food source. To me it's all semantics, it's either legal or not and if it's legal then it's OK. If it's not legal it's NOT OK.

What I tire of hearing are the folks who boast of their super duper long range magnum game droppers and think anyone hunting with less than a so and so super magnum shouldn't be allowed in the woods as they aren't sufficiently armed to kill more than a squirrel. I tire of folks who claim it's just not possible for them to get closer than 300-400-500 ad infinitum out to as far as you wish to the specific game they are "hunting" and thus long shots are "REQUIRED". BS I say. Each and every year many thousands of hunters use bows and arrows, iron sighted handguns and muzzle loaders to take the EXACT same critters you can't get closer to than 1/4 mile. Sure maybe YOUR circumstances are a bit different. Maybe on that one critter you can't get closer, maybe neither could they. But with that bow, iron sighted handgun or muzzle loader they would NOT toss the shot from 400 yards. They'd go find another critter and get close to it. IT's called HUNTING folks, it's not called KILLING or SHOOTING but HUNTING. So hunt. Accept that you're not gonna come home every single time with a dead critter, you're family is not likely gonna starve for the lack of one this trip.

So what's hunting and what's shooting and where do the two part ways? I can answer for no one but me. I've never had access to a range longer than 300 yards to practice on and to know where my guns shoot and how accurately me and they shoot together. So for me ranges over 300 yards become iffy based on lack of shooting practice and proven skill. Does that mean I'm useless beyond that range? Nope not really, as I've popped prairie dogs out beyond 450 yards and they are a lot smaller than big game. BUT with them any hit from the rifles I was using was likely to be deadly almost instantly, not so with any hit on a big game animal from any round you can fire from the shoulder. So there is a difference.

Most of my hunting and thus shooting has taken place in thickly wooded areas east of the MS River, mostly in the deep south. In much of this area 50 yards might be a long shot. Too often a deer 100 yards away might be heard but not even seen as the brush is just too thick. Some places I've hunted have allowed wider visitas and I've practice for such and if I know they are possible I go armed to take advantage of them. I've made a couple shots here in the deep south out to as much as perhaps 200 yards, not a really long poke by most standards but by the stands of the area I was hunting it was quite long.

I'm comfortable to about 300 yards on big game with the rifles I'd have in my hands if hunting an area where such shots are possible. If such a shot was presented to me and if I felt I was solid enough I'd take it and considered it part of the hunt, the shot is after all the culmination of a successful hunt or should be. But if I had any doubts about my rest or my ability to place that shot I'd with hold it and either try to get closer or to a more steady rest or just look for a different animal. Yeah I've come home empty handed before and will again. It really ain't a biggie ya know, that's why it's called HUNTING.

There was a lot of rambling in that and no one should presume from it to KNOW my feelings entired on the issue of hunting vs. shooting and what's long range but it at least gives those of you I've been in these arguments with on here many times a peek into my mind on why I say what I say on the threads regarding the issue. It's not THE LAW on the issue here at GBO or otherwise, it's just the way I feel about it and I do feel strongly about it.

There are too many unethical folks walking the woods impersonating hunters to suit me. I do not support them in their efforts. Sorry.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline ScoutMan

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2006, 12:13:43 PM »
300 yds is about the PBR of most centerfire cartridges in the 2700-3000 fps range. The biggest trouble is range estimation. Coupled with that is the "morning glory" effectwhich states that at about 300 yds wind and wind resistance on bullet spin by itself will increase group size. So a top of back hold on game has an equal chance of shooting over the game animal as it has of making a solid hit in the vital zone.

When we shot 1000 yds at Camp Perry, the disatance was know and we had our 1,000 yd zero. But what separated the winners from the loosers was the ability to judge the wind at that disatance.
If you can get closer, get closer
If you can get steadier, get steadier.

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Offline RaySendero

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2006, 12:37:29 PM »
.....

BUT HONESTLY how many of you EVERY SINGLE TIME you fire a shot go to the EXACT spot the animal was standing, are able to find that exact spot and then spend a minimum of 2-4 hours searching for the animal or signs of a definite hit or miss? Pardon my French but Damn few I'll bet. So how do you KNOW if you do or don't fit that category?

.....

one shot
EVERY SINGLE TIME
to the EXACT spot the animal was standing
found all deer within 15 mins

 ;D

PS: knock-on-wood; There's a new season coming up.
 
    Ray

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2006, 01:13:16 PM »
Hunting is what you make of it, I am a hunter therefor I hunt.
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline 308Win

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2006, 03:35:23 PM »
Total content of message deleted by Graybeard as a double violation of the TOS. It was both a personal attack and name calling, both forbidden by the GBO TOS. Graybeard

SORRY,But living in a mans World and talking one man to another man I slandered NO ONE.
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Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2006, 03:43:19 PM »
Total content of message deleted by Graybeard as a double violation of the TOS. It was both a personal attack and name calling, both forbidden by the GBO TOS. Graybeard

SORRY,But living in a mans World and talking one man to another man I slandered NO ONE.

Apology accepted. Now, is it hunting or is it shooting? A lot of guys are ducking the origional question!

Dawn
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline handirifle

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2006, 03:51:46 PM »
GB well said.  I haven't found my max range cause there's never been a shot over 250yds that presented itself.  A coyote at 250 found out how well a 243 does as a varmint rifle, and I (this was MANY years ago) found out how LITTLE a 85gr pill dropped at that range.

When I was a kid I learned to hunt with a 22 on rabbits and squirrels in Ohio.  My rule I was taught then was, "if you can see it you can hit it."  I used a 4X scope, always have.  My vision demands a scope for most any range I hunt at.  The see it hit it rule came about cause I hunted in thick woods and 50yds was a LONG ways off.  Not till I got my 243 (out west now) and started reading about bullet drop and the like, all new stuff to me then, di I ever have to correct for distance.

Guess what, the first shot with that 243 was on a yote at 250yds.  I was sitting with the rifle resting on my knees and I held the crosshairs on the ridge line of his back.  Figuring, since I had read how much these bullets dropped at that long range, I'd have to hold over.  Guess where it hit?  Right about 1" below where I held.  It dropped him in his tracks but it was a spine nick and he was floppong all over.  The next shot was palced dead center on his chest as he was facing me and the flopping stopped instantly.

I learned a valuable lesson that day about bullet drop and the need for me to know where it will ACTUALLY hit a  given range.

Would I shoot a yote at 350?  In a heartbeat, but on a deer, most likely not.

One interesting note.  I read an article a while back about a whitetail hunter that was a decorated sniper from the Nam war, with confirmed killes well past 600yds.  He used a 300 WM (why I don't know) but he prided himself on getting within bow range of a deer before killling it.  Seems like a 30-30 would have been better, but it's HIS shoulder, not mine.
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Offline 308Win

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2006, 04:00:08 PM »
Apology accepted.For what?
How much money must we spend before we learn to concentrate on the front sight?"Col Jeff Cooper"

Offline nomosendero

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2006, 04:26:10 PM »
Some people seem to think that its always possible to "get closer" and that hunters who take a (pick your range, but 300 yards is a common number) or longer shot are somehow less of a "hunter" and more of a "shooter".

There is no doubt that some "hunters" are merely people wandering around the woods with the weapon of their choice and that they are inept in the art of hunting as well as the art of using their weapon.  This thread, however, is not about such people.  It is not about the "general case" but rather about specific individuals and their skills, and the question of whether or not it really IS always possible to "get closer".

I think the answer is "No, it is not".  In the 25 years I've been hunting Colroado big game I have gotten close enough to deer to reach out and touch them and have turned down quite a few shots at elk at rock-throwing distance.  Nevertheless there have also been years when I was thankful that I could finally narrow the range down to 350 yards or even SEE an animal that matched my license.

Unfortunately there are often factors at work that are beyond the control of the hunter.  Over the years I have seen many situations where it was impossible to "get closer" and a decision had to be made to shoot or go home empty handed.  The wise hunter, IMHO, is prepared for the far shot as well as the close one.






Good post & you are right, (1) It is not always possible to get close, people who have been around a little know that.
                                      (2) why not be prepared for the far shot & the close one? 
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2006, 05:17:22 PM »
Uuuhhhh, I've hunted in most of the eastern states that are south of the Mason-Dixon and I've hunted in Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana on a frequent basis. Plus Oklahoma and Arkansas.  I don't know if that qualifies me as having "been around a little" or not but I've rarely seen the time when I COULDN'T get closer than any 300 yards. :) :)
But then, there are no guarentees in hunting.  The fact that you're out there hunting is the reward.  Killing your game is a bonus.  When I go hunting, I am prepared to go home empty handed rather than let my ego drive me into a marginal shot.  And, if someone has been around a little, they know in Wyoming and Montana the wind can sometimes make a 200 yard shot pretty dicey.

Offline Slamfire

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2006, 05:36:36 PM »
My experience in the west where I lived and hunted for 33 years leads me to believe that only trophy hunter "need" to take a 400 yard shot. Meat hunters can always look for another animal, or go home with happy memories.
A top of the back shot requires really good ranging, and I can't get that close with the duplex reticule on my scope.
Jackrabbit and coyote shootin' at long range has also convinced me that the wind is really hard for me to dope out, I guess I don't get enough practice.
My longest shot was 327 paces on an antelope, but some of those were up or downhill so I doubt the critter was more'n 300 yards out.
Nowadays I stay close to home, where you can't see much beyond 50 yards except to the other side of a hollar, which is probably under 100 yards. That's why I'm perfectly happy with my front stuffers and prbs.
I understand the trophy hunter, I was one once, but now my trophy is the oldest buck I can find, over the hill and not participatin' in the rut if possible.
Bold talk from a one eyed fat man.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2006, 05:46:09 PM »
Most of the poke & hope shots that I have seen are the "pie plate boys" that we all can see getting ready for Deer season & right
before Deer season at that! They will grab whatever factory ammo is the cheapest & when they can hit a pie plate at 50 yards they
are ready.  ::) These are close range hunters, at least the ones I have witnessed. Mr. Graybeard mentioned guys he saw at a range
that could not hit a refrig. box & then shoot at long range out West. I don't doubt it & I have heard it before, but I am willing to
bet here & now that there are far more local slob hunters blasting away at running Deer than slobs saving up hard earned money
to go out West & be a slob.

The vast majority of game animals that I have shot have been under 100 yards. I am talking low 3 digits here. I have taken some
animals (plural) in every 50 yard increment out to 400 yards & a precious few beyond that. Now, SO FAR I have not missed or lost a Big Game Animal beyond 250 yards, again SO FAR. However, I lost 2 Deer that I shot under 100 yards. One was hit after my bullet hit a limb I did not see, one was hit too far back & I missed a couple completely over the years, again I am talking about 30 years here & tons of Deer. So I ask this question, should I quit all of my short range hunting because short range is the only time I screwed up?
No, actually the last such incident was some time ago & all occured because I acted in haste, which is more likely in a short range situation. In the case of the limb incident I did not take in all of the conditions instead of focusing only on the Buck. Not carefully
considering all of the factors can cause a mistake, short range or long. In the case of the longer shots, so far I have studied the conditions, knew the range & took the necessary time.

Another thing to consider. I do most of my hunting here in AR. at close range, usually in a stand, sometmes in a ground blind & sometimes in a very deliberate still hunt. In these close range stands I will see up to maybe 3 trails. But, I have a couple of stands
that offer long range shots, one that covers a grown up field with thickets & MANY trails. The other is a cable R O W that has
several trails that cross it. Regardless of which stands I hunt, close range or long rang stans, I use scent concealment & approach
the stands the same way I do when I bowhunt. Question: Am I an inferior hunter on those days when I hunt the long range stands?
I am the same guy & using the same methods as any other day, so if I see a Deer at close range from a long range stand (most are
close) & I shoot it I am a Hunter, but the next day I see a Deer from the same stand but it is on one of the trails at a distance &
I shoot it, that day I am a shooter I guess, what a bunch of crap!!!!!!!!!

Mr. Graybeard was correct in stating that " for each one of us some different distance will constitute long range" & also for stating
that "I can answer for no one but me". And I cannot tell someone what the limit they can shoot is or at what majic yardage hunting
suddenly turns into just shooting. Anyone who thinks they can are clueless. Remember, some shoot better at 400 yards than others do at 200 yards, that's the way it is.

So if I am HUNTING & I see a Deer at a distance I am not going to range the Deer, then get out a "armchair opinion manual" to see
if some clown in Cleveland or somewhere may be worried it is just barely in the shooting only catagory, no I will get set up for the shot & only shoot if I KNOW it is within my skill level & conditions & act accordingly. If it is beyond that limit by 10 yuards or so I will do some community service of deny my Wife's Pecan Pie for a week or so.

The point to me is to allways act within your abilities of yourself, weapon & conditions. I strive to do this with rifle, mz, handgun or
bow & the same discussion could occur with any of these, but usually doesn't.


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Offline nomosendero

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2006, 05:52:47 PM »
Uuuhhhh, I've hunted in most of the eastern states that are south of the Mason-Dixon and I've hunted in Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana on a frequent basis. Plus Oklahoma and Arkansas.  I don't know if that qualifies me as having "been around a little" or not but I've rarely seen the time when I COULDN'T get closer than any 300 yards. :) :)
But then, there are no guarentees in hunting.  The fact that you're out there hunting is the reward.  Killing your game is a bonus.  When I go hunting, I am prepared to go home empty handed rather than let my ego drive me into a marginal shot.  And, if someone has been around a little, they know in Wyoming and Montana the wind can sometimes make a 200 yard shot pretty dicey.

True, & on those days I would not take the 200 yd. shot. One of the ranches I hunt in WY. has alot of very short grass & to take the animal I wanted I opted to take the longer shot, but the conditions were right & he is on the wall. In some terrain or in the sage, a good spot and stalk can be done, but not on this ranch. We all hunt different places.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2006, 06:01:21 PM »
The primary problem I have with most poke and hope shooting is, if it's not possible to get closer, how are you gonna get the animal out??  

I guess I hadn't envisioned situations where physical access was a problem.  Rather I was thinking in terms of lack of cover, time constraints, property and game management unit boundaries (legal access rather than physical access), animal movement, weather, other hunters in the area, and so on.  Not shooting across the Black Canyon of the Gunnison.  In situations where physical access was the problem a simple "no shoot" decision has been my solution.

Quote from: beemanbeme
Also, if you shoot and the animal runs off, are you gonna be ethical enough, or even skilled enough, to go to the spot where the quarry was standing to check for blood and such?  

Once again a "no shoot" decision can always be made, but the fact is that many long shots are across open ground.   Conversely many short range shots are made in heavy timber or other cover where a wounded animal can disappear from view by moving a few yards or even a few feet. Is a 25-yard shot under such conditions, where a wounded animal can be easily lost, more ethical than a 300 yard shot on open ground where a wounded animal can be easily followed visually?

Quote from: beemanbeme
I talked to some guys (out of state) in Wyoming.  ...

Well, what can I say - these guys were unethical jerks at best.  As to "Joe Box-a-year", that is a general case and this thread is about "specific individuals and their skills, and the question of whether or not it really IS always possible to "get closer".

Quote from: beemanbeme
I feel the contest is really between me and the deer.  If I shoot a deer at 300 yards, he probably isn't even aware that I'm anywhere around.  I have proved that I am practiced or lucky and I have proved that I have good equipment but I can't see how it proves I am a good hunter.

I do not condone long shots for the sake of the long shot, but neither do I condemn them simply because they are long.  Over the years I have passed on some very short shots and taken several at 300-350 yards.  Was I less of a hunter when I took the long shots than I was when I passed on the short ones?  No.  In a couple cases it was much more difficult to close to the longer range than it has been to get within rock throwing distance of other animals.

One can always decide to go home empty-handed, and I've made that decision several times.  Other times the long shot was a reasonable decision.  Proving I'm a "good hunter" doesn't factor into the decision process.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2006, 06:56:09 PM »
Since I'm reasonably sure that a recent post or two of mine are the reason this thread was posted
Quote

One of your posts was part of the reasons I started this thread, but not the only one.

Quote from: Graybeard
...
I'm comfortable to about 300 yards on big game with the rifles I'd have in my hands if hunting an area where such shots are possible. If such a shot was presented to me and if I felt I was solid enough I'd take it and considered it part of the hunt, the shot is after all the culmination of a successful hunt or should be.


So if I understand that correctly, you feel that at least in some cases a 300 yard shot is "hunting" rather than "shooting"?

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Offline handirifle

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2006, 06:56:50 PM »
A top of the back shot requires really good ranging, and I can't get that close with the duplex reticule on my scope.
Jackrabbit and coyote shootin' at long range has also convinced me that the wind is really hard for me to dope out, I guess I don't get enough practice.

If you're refering to the shot I mentioned, I told that story cause the top of the back was where the crosshairs were, but I expected the bullet to hit the chest.  That was a learning for me.  I grew up in Ohio and that long of a shot was unheard uf there, at that time.  It took quite a bit for me to get used to how flat some rifles can shoot and more importantly, to TRUST that fact.

Long range shooting (hunting?) comes with much confidence, and we all know, THAT comes with much practice.  The last yote I shot was at one point 8yds from me but I had to wait till he moved away to 15yds before I could move enough to shoot him.

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Offline nasem

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2006, 04:08:05 AM »
to me it all depends on how comfortable I am shooting at a deer @ 300 yeards.  Also depends on where I have my rifle zeroed, If my gun is zeroed @100 yards, then heck no I wouldn't take the shot, Im not good at estimating my bullet drop.  Therefor a 300 yard shot is NOT hunting in my case.

However, if my gun is zeroed at 250+ or even 300 yards, then I'd feel more comfortable taking the shot.  and In that situation, it is hunting, It means I came prepared for long shots and I have put the time and efford practising and now I think I can pull a 300 yard shot off.

By the way, all my guns are zeroed @ 200 yards, except for the 300 RUM, zeroed @ 300  yards ;D