Author Topic: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?  (Read 3177 times)

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Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2006, 11:20:29 AM »
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I feel the contest is really between me and the deer.  If I shoot a deer at 300 yards, he probably isn't even aware that I'm anywhere around. 


 Honestly, how do you kill deer at close range and have them be "aware" you're around. Almost by definition if you're within close proximity to a deer then it's unaware of your being there. Unless the deer where you have have a suicidal tendancy.

 Me I prepair all year long for November I will shoot my quarry at whatever range they happen to be at that's WITHIN my skill.  Contrary to the gist of this thread you can be a good hunter as well as a good marksman the two are not exclusive. Me I've filled tags at 300 yds and I've filled em at 25 feet, I honestly felt guiltier for the unsuspecting deer I blasted at 25' than any of the rest, It was also the hardest to recover as of yet.

Offline TC2

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2006, 11:57:16 AM »
I hunt then I shoot.  I hunt to find my quarry.  Then if I am confortable with the range,  position I have to shoot from and the location of the animal I take my shot.  Be it bow, ML, pistol, or modern rifle I must feel that I am with in my range.  Then I hunt again...check for the hit or miss and find the game if it is hit. I shot two does with my muzzle loader that ran 75 yards.  Both were shot through the heart and lungs.  Both with in 75 yards distance.  I have never taken a shot that I felt was not in my comfort zone.   I hone my shooting skills on the range and my hunting skills in the field.   So my opinion is that hunting and shooting are two seperate things. 
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2006, 03:56:22 PM »
A deer at this magical 300 yards may be totally oblivious of you.  You may move around, relocate, change your shooting spot, even smoke a cigarette if you got 'em while the deer browses into a better position for a shot.  A deer at hand shaking distance may be only too aware of you but hasn't decided if you are a threat or not.  He may even think that you haven't spotted him in which case he may freeze or try to skulk away.  Hint 1: do not look directly at the deer but keep your head down and peek at him from the corner of your eye as you move slooooooooowly in to shooting position.  Hint 2: if he can ease a big tree between you and him, he will find another gear as he leaves for home.
If you can spend some time in a pretty high shooting stand, its better than a picture show to watch hunters try to indian up on a deer and to watch the games the deer play with them.  I can't begin to guess for each deer you see in the woods, how many just stand there and let you walk by.  If you pride yourself on your sneaking ability, it can be pretty humbling.  ;D

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2006, 05:22:11 PM »
Honestly, how do you kill deer at close range and have them be "aware" you're around.

I can't tell you how many times I have spoken softly to deer and antelope from ranges of 10-20 yards.  They don't know what to make of it and will often stand there for quite a while. 
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Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2006, 09:13:08 AM »
Here's a brief story of my 2002 elk hunt, you tell me; was it "hunting' or "shooting"?

Larry Gibson

ELK SEASON, 2002

Elk season for me was in the Chesnimus Unit in NE Oregon opening on Saturday, November 2nd, 2002.  This unit is a road closure area so in the last few years there have been some pretty nice bulls taken but I was mostly looking for a young bull, preferably a spike, for eating.  However the elk have somewhat changed their habits the last couple years.  They used to be spread out up on the open areas and fairly gentle hills (Mitchell and Hilton Ridges) between Crow creek and Thomason Meadows/Indian Village areas.  The last couple years they seem to herd up east of Indian Village on the breaks of the Imnaha River.  For those who don't know, the Imnaha River canyon runs parallel to Hells Canyon just west of it.  While Hells Canyon is 1 Mile deep the Imnaha Canyon is only 3/4 of a mile deep.  Anyway it seems that lately with the elk herding up that way, opening morning is mostly a footrace to the kill.  There are 700 tags issued for the Unit and quite a few of the hunters seem to concentrate on the herd (600-700 elk) we were also hunting.  There are other herds in the Unit also.   

 The "breaks" of the Imnaha are very large open and steep ridges and opening morning found me on the wrong ridge.  The only action I had was to watch all the elk high tail it for private property ranches after the opening shots.  There were 3 tags in my party and we weren't without luck though.  Young Ryan, with his dad Mike in tow, had a tag and shot a very nice 5 point bull at 368 yards (Bushnell Pro 1000).    Ryan had just recently returned from the Marine Corps where he had been a Scout/Sniper.  Of course his rifle was a duplicate of the M40A2 he used in the Corps except his was chambered in .300 Win Mag.  He has using the Sierra 200 gr GK SPBT bullet.  The shot was about a 30-40 degree downhill shot with the bullet entering just behind the shoulder, taking out the lungs, just missed the heart and exited through the off shoulder.  The elk moved about 15 yards and collapsed.  Ryan and Mike spent the next two days packing it out.     

I continued to hunt opening day and spotted a small herd with a bull in it way out on a ridge.  However by the time I got over to that ridge and halfway out to the elk, 3 other nimrods stumbled to the ridge top just above the elk and began looking around every way but down where the elk were.  They never saw the elk as the small herd slipped into some timber in a draw and was gone.  The next day, Sunday, I went back out onto the breaks and put the sneak to a couple of small bunches of elk but they were all cows and calves, no bulls.  On Monday I hunted Alder Creek and Sterling Gulch drainage’s in the hopes that some of the elk herd from the "Buttes" herd would have splintered off and moved down into them, no elk and no fresh sign.  Tuesday I made the hunt from the breaks of the Imnaha West down through Indian Village.  Didn't see any elk but I saw some fresh sign moving back into the breaks.  Best thing though was that I only found one other hunter out there and he hadn't seen anyone other than me. 

So Tuesday night in camp Jack and I had to rethink our strategy.  Two things had changed since opening morning.  First, the arctic front that had dropped the temperature below zero two days before season and down into the low 10-25 degree range on the first two days of season had passed.  There was now a Chinook wind coming out of the south and the temperature was rising fast, melting the snow.  Second, all the other hunters seem to have moved to other areas to hunt and there was now zero hunter pressure on the breaks.  Thus I reasoned that since the elk really liked the south facing ridges on the breaks east of Indian Village, as there was plenty of forage, water and sunshine.  Also from the Zumwalt Road we had been able to look back East out onto Long Ridge and see the herd about mid-day sunning itself. They had "holed" up out there on private property since opening morning.  Our thought was with the break in weather and lessening of hunter pressure some of them might have splintered off from the big herd and moved back out into the breaks where they were huntable.  Tuesday afternoon there was about half as many elk on Long Ridge so we were hoping our guess was good that the herd was getting over opening morning jitters and beginning to break up.  We figured some of them would move back to the breaks so I put all my chips on that bet.   

Wednesday morning at daylight found me with my hunting partner, Jack who didn't have a tag, out on the ridge that I should have been on opening morning.  The ridge is a pretty long one that drops quickly down to the Imnaha River and runs SE.  Unfortunately we had the Sun to our face but then fortunately we also had the wind to our face.  The breaks or ridges there are wide open with little cover except for an occasional tree or out cropping of rocks.  They generally slope down quite rapidly with a series of benches.  The elk like to gather and sun themselves on these small benches in the early morning.  As Jack and I moved off the top and out of the tree line onto the open ridge we followed the cattle fence that runs down it.  We had gone only a couple hundred yards and were glassing very carefully.  Jack spotted a cow elk down the ridge in a saddle just above a bench.  Short of a low crawl it was going to be difficult to get closer as the ridge where we were was very rounded and there just wasn’t any cover between the elk and us.

 Below us a couple hundred yards along the fence was a large patch of thorn brush about 30-40 yards wide.  We knew there was a spring right below it with a couple water troughs.  There the ridge made a zigzag to the left with the drainage dropping off about 60-70 yards right below the water troughs.  As the ridge straightened out a couple hundred yards to the left there was a large rock butte with a bench below it a little more than a hundred yards long and about 25-30 yards wide.  That was where the elk seemed to be heading for as they fed out of the very steep drainage.  If we could get to the thorn brush we might have a shot – that is IF there was a bull in this bunch.  We did the old “bend over and move slowly head to ass” trick hoping the elk would think we were a cow, as in cattle, as there were still quite a few of those around also.  It worked.  We moved slowly down the fence line until we were about a hundred yards above the thorn brush.  More and more elk were coming into view as we moved down the fence line. With my Zeiss 10x40s I spotted a spike bull that jumped the fence and then moved onto the bench below the butte.  That was the elk I was looking for.  Jack hit him with the range finder and it was just over 600 yards.   

We slid our pack frames off and again moved cow like very slowly down the fence to the thorn bush.  By this time there were quite a few elk in view and they appeared to be feeding out of the draw below the troughs up onto the bench.  We finally got to the thorn brush that screened us from the elk.  If you’re familiar with thorn brush you know we had a problem.  You just don’t walk through it.  While trying to figure out what to do next I noticed a small faint trail that led up to the center of the thorn brush and seemed to disappear into it.  Getting down on my knees I could see a tunnel went through the brush about 2-3 feet high.  Thus we went to hands and knees and worked our way through the thorn brush.  However, once on the other side there was no further cover and the tall grass prevented a prone shot from there.  We then had to low crawl about 40-50 yards as far out onto the ridge as we dared.  It appeared there were elk below us just under the edge but whether there were any bulls there we could not see.  One old “lookout” cow out to the left just below the butte was beginning to eyeball us suspiciously so I told Jack to range the spike bull on the bench.  He said 457 yards.
 
 That long of a shot was in my comfort zone with the rifle I had. I had done a considerable amount of long range shooting with the rifle and I was confident I could make the shot putting a bullet into the heart/lung area.  I would be shooting about 15-20 degrees downhill with a not to constant 10-12 mph wind quartering in from 2 o'clock. The scope on the rifle is a 3x9 Redfield Accu-Trac that I have used for years with absolute reliability.  I have it ranged to 800 yards with the yardage settings matching those given by my Bushnell rangefinder, the one Jack had just ranged the bull with.  I turned the scope to 9x and set the range at 450 yards.  I had Jack slide around in front of me for a rest.  Jack whined and sniveled as he wanted to watch but ya got to use what’s available. That's exactly what he was, a rest, and I had a perfect prone supported rest across the small of his back.   Quick mental calculations based on many years of long rang shooting with that rifle and load told me I would have about 8-10 inches of wind drift at that range.  I waited for the bull to be clear of any other elk.  When he was clear he was standing quartered away to the left about two thirds of the way down the bench.  I wanted the bullet to go into the heart and lungs so I held center of the chest for elevation and on his last rib to the right for wind.  The shot broke clean and crisp. 

At the boom and rolling echo I recovered from recoil and saw the bulls left shoulder drop as he hunched from taking the shot.  A brief moment later I heard the “thwack” of a solid hit.  The first shot was a "10" going in behind the left shoulder and taking out the front of the lungs and the major artery in the throat on the way out. After taking the shot the elk was dead on his feet but he and I did not know that. He moved about 20 yards farther away and stood broadside to the right. He was close to the edge of the bench and it was a long way down on all three sides to the Imnaha River.  I really did not want him off that bench! I shot him again holding center again for elevation and holding on his brisket to the right for wind.  Again the shot broke clean and I saw his front knees buckle as he took the shot.  Then again came that satisfying “thwack” of a solid hit.  The shot was an "X" going through the shoulder, the heart and breaking the offside shoulder. The range of the second shot was 477 yards.  On taking the second shot the bull recovered momentarily but due to the broken offside leg he staggered back to the middle of the bench (thank you God) and collapsed there. 

The “fun” part was over, now began the work.  Once dressed out and quartered it was still a little over a 3 mile backpack out with over 250 pounds of meat, the head plus our hunting gear.  We took the hind quarters out first then went back for the front quarters.  Still a total of a little over 12 miles total for the day for Jack and I making the two trips.  I killed the bull at 0655 and we got everything back out to Jack’s pickup at 1530, not too bad for a couple of “old guys”.  On the way back to camp we were pretty happy and had big plans for celebrating through the night.  You know, a big roaring campfire, a good dinner, some fine whiskey and of course a good cigar.  However, by the time we got the meat hung we ate some canned chili, had a shot of whiskey and were sound asleep snoring loudly by 1830.  We were young lions once, really …..we really were!

   The rifle I was using I had named the "Black Bitch".  It is a M98 Mauser commercial barreled action by Churchill of England in .30-06. I pillar bedded the barreled action in a black Bell and Carlson stock some years ago.  As previously mentioned it is topped with a Redfield 3x9 Accu-Trac scope in Redfield rings and bases.  Other than the sling it is a very “black” rifle, hence the name.  The load used was the Hornady 180 gr BTHP over a max load of IMR 4350 in LC Match cases with WLR primers. Velocity is 2690 fps with the 20 inch barrel. I have shot several thousand of rounds through the barrel and the throat is getting a little rough.  However the rifle still shoots into 1 to 1.25 MOA at 200 yards with the load mentioned.  We found the second bullet pretty much mangled in the offside broken leg bone.  The bullet still retained 71% of it’s weight and though not a “classic” picture of the mushroomed bullet there was no hint of “bullet failure”.  I have killed several elk (this was my 17th elk on tag, though not all with this rifle), caribou, a multitude of deer and numerous coyotes and other varmints with this rifle.  It is also the rifle and the same load I used to kill my Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep at 246 yards, another "X" heart shot. That sheep tag was a “once in a lifetime tag” I drew in Oregon.  Thus is the confidence I have in this rifle and load.  And so ends my 2002 big game season with both a deer and an elk taken and in the freezer.  Now for those pesky coyote’s……  Larry Gibson

Offline nasem

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2006, 09:43:39 AM »
what a nice story, and most importantly, shows how the "non-magnums" are still VERY capable if you put them in the right hands.  Good work Larry

Offline Sourdough

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2006, 09:56:20 AM »
I hunt Moose and Caribou every year.  Sometimes the shots are at 30 yards, other times the shots are out to 500 yards.  I feel that it is my responsiability to be able to hit and drop anything I shoot at no matter what range.  My longest shots at big game (500 yards at Moose and 700 yards at Caribou) so far have been at animals that had been poorly shot by other people at close ranges, and needed to be put down before getting away. 

I also hunt wolves during the winter.  I often find wolves feeding on a downed moose, or Caribou in the middle of a valley that has no vegitation above the snow.  No way to get any closer than the top of the ridge I am on.  I have been using a 30-06, but discovered that it does not have the energy left to do the humain job I like over 600 yards. 

I have now started shooting a 338-378 Weatherby, so far it has the ability to have a 9 inch group out to 600 yards.  I'm still working with it to cut it down to a four inch group.  My goal is to have a four inch group at 800 yards.  A four inch group is adiquate to take down a Wolf, Sheep, Caribou, Moose, or Bear.

I shoot four to five days a week, practice, practice, practice.
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Offline nasem

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2006, 10:40:48 AM »
I hunt Moose and Caribou every year.  Sometimes the shots are at 30 yards, other times the shots are out to 500 yards.  I feel that it is my responsiability to be able to hit and drop anything I shoot at no matter what range.  My longest shots at big game (500 yards at Moose and 700 yards at Caribou) so far have been at animals that had been poorly shot by other people at close ranges, and needed to be put down before getting away. 

I also hunt wolves during the winter.  I often find wolves feeding on a downed moose, or Caribou in the middle of a valley that has no vegitation above the snow.  No way to get any closer than the top of the ridge I am on.  I have been using a 30-06, but discovered that it does not have the energy left to do the humain job I like over 600 yards. 

I have now started shooting a 338-378 Weatherby, so far it has the ability to have a 9 inch group out to 600 yards.  I'm still working with it to cut it down to a four inch group.  My goal is to have a four inch group at 800 yards.  A four inch group is adiquate to take down a Wolf, Sheep, Caribou, Moose, or Bear.

I shoot four to five days a week, practice, practice, practice.

woun't that 338-378 eat up your barrel fast if you shoot it every day ?  whats the life expectency of that barrel ?

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2006, 11:39:12 AM »
You guys that have posted here about this that shoot at verrry long range seem to be justifing your ability to do it. In every case tho, each of you could have chosen to walk away. Forget wheather it was, in other's opinions, right or wrong. Were you hunting or shooting? If someone that you knew that didn't have the experience or the equipment or neither to have taken the shots your talking about, were they hunting or shooting? I believe they were doing the same thing you guys were doing, they were shooting, just maybe not so well. The point is, when you've finished the hunt or have gotten as close as you can, YOU have a choice to make; walk away or shoot. It's then no longer about hunting.

I think that the hunt always ends befor the shooting starts and as I said earlier, it is easier to get within 300yds of game than it is to shoot well at 300yds. And I find no reason why anyone, with the cartridges we have today can't become proficent shots at 300yds, that's pretty much built into the cartridge's we use! But lots of people can't mostly because they don't take the time to develope skills. On the other hand, many people perfer not to worry about hunting skills choosing instead the rely on shooting skills, real or imagined. Then there are going to be those that do develope those skills that terminate the hunt as soon as they get into what they call their comfort zone. Sourdough said his longest shots were at a moose and a caribou (500 and 700yds) at animals that had already been "poorly shot by other people at close range and need to be put down befor getting away." I'm guessing that he saw the poor shots at close range to know that. Why wait until they are out that far to shoot? It sounds like justification for shooting at long range, and maybe it was. At those ranges, how did you determine that these were wounded animals?

Larry and Sourdough if you think I'm getting on your case, I apoligize in advance, that is not my intention.

In Larry Gibsons case, he'd got as close as he believed he could and had to make a choice, back out and find another way, that may not have existed, walk away or shoot. He chose to shot. The hunt terminated well befor the shot. I am not saying what either one of these guys did was right wrong or indifferent but neither was hunting, both had a choice to shoot or not and CHOSE to shoot.

This same situtation could be applied at any range you like, no matter how close you are. The difference is that shooting well at over 300yds takes a lot more skill than shooting under. I don't like reading about this stuff because it incourages people lacking the skills to try if they think their cartridge will do it. A while back in an outdoor magazine, Dick Metcalf did an article on the new CZ built for long range. He commented that he tried it out at 500tds on some African game, the longest shot he'd ever made. What killed the animal? A cartridge in a rifle set up to shoot 500yds, a well practiced long range shooter or blind luck? I assure you that there are going to be many that think that that long range rifle made up for Metcalf's lack of skill and will try it themselves. I've known guys that could make that shot with a well tuned 308.
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2006, 05:01:04 PM »
Larry Gibson –

Sounds like a great hunt and a great shot.  Conrats!



Don Fischer –

I’m going to make a few comments on your statements.  We obviously disagree on some points but I think we agree on others.

1.   Yes, a hunter can always choose to walk away.  However, I see little reason for a properly prepared hunter to do so other than by choice.  The two largest bulls I ever had in my sights went free, both at 100 yards, both easy shots.  I walked away with no regrets, as Dave, my hunting buddy can attest.  The shortest shots I have walked away from were cow elk, at ranges of about 15-20 yards.  Again, no regrets. The longest shot I have taken was a bull elk at 350 yards.  One shot did he trick, no regrets there, either.  As a “hunt” the bull at 350 was the most difficult of all.  It was also my most difficult shot.  I did not take that shot because it was long, I took it because it was the culmination of a long, hard hunt and it was a shot I was prepared for.  In each case when I walked away it was simply because I was OK with not taking the shots.   

2.  It is not necessarily easier to get within 300 yards than it is to shoot well at 300 yards.  Shooting well at 300, in fact, is not all that difficult, nor does it take expensive equipment.  Getting closer than 300 is sometimes simply impossible due to factors outside the hunter’s control.

3.  It is my sincere hope that reading about long range shots will encourage hunters to prepare more thoroughly for such an occasion.  Doing so will have the side benefit of making them better shots at closer ranges, where most game is taken.  In the long run, however, each hunter is responsible for their own actions – and only their own actions.  Larry Gibson should not have had to turn down that shot simply because Joe Average couldn’t have made the shot or because he might have been able to get a closer shot at another bull somewhere else.  When game is scarce, a bird in the hand...

4.  I consider the hunt terminated when the game is on the ground.  For me, the shot is simply one part of it, as is the preparation that goes on months ahead of time, the walking in and finding game, and stalking to get as close as possible – whether that is 10 yards, 100 yards, 300 yards or whatever.  While hunting is what you do to find the game, the hunt is not over without a successful shot.

5.  As I’ve stated before, I don’t condemn long shots simply because they are long.  Nor do I think they are the right thing to do simply because the shooter can usually make the shot.  In my own case I will continue to get as close as possible, then make the decision to shoot or not. 

6.  The key is that sometimes getting closer simply is not possible.  What a person does or does not do  once they are as close as possible does not alter that fact.

Coyote Hunter
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Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2006, 05:05:23 AM »
Coyote Hunter,

Maybe I just don't understand what we are really talking about here. It is no secret that I'm not an advocate of long range shooting at game. I hope it's also no secret I do advocate learning to shoot well. I've said several times that getting under 300 yds can be much harder than shooting at 300+ yds. I've also said in the past that I believe that practiceing at 300yds and beyond makes a shooter much better at under 300 yds. For the most part I do agree with everything you said.

I was not trying to pass judgement on the shot Larry made nor on Sourdough, only saying that they had choices to make about shooting. Again, my feelings are fairly well known. In this discussion I take the position that hunting and shooting are two different things and especially at 300+ yds. As you said and I said earlier, getting under 300yds is quite often much harder than shooting at 300+yds. I also think that there are those that shoot very well beyond that range and under the right conditions will do it well. I'm really trying to keep my own feelings for these things out of this. But I also believe that because of the skill levels involved in long range shooting, it's something that should not be incouraged. Those that wish to do it will find at the right time that they can. And if we could get everyone to honestly practice at 300yds there would be a lot less wounded game at 100. But it would still happen! In a perfect world, where everyone is a world class shooter, more game would be wounded beyond 300yds than under, or so I believe. We do not and never will have that perfect world therefor I think we should encourage everyone to restrain their shooting, or at least restrain glotifying the range of the shot. If all those people that do buy some magnum to shoot at long range were to realize that it's not the cartridge that made the shot but the shooter, some might actually concentrate more on shooting.

I don't think I've ever admited it here openly befor, but in the past I have done those long shot's. I don't do it anymore but I still practice at very long ranges, I don't talk about it much. I have access to set up targets well beyond anything even remotely reasonable, I can see a clear line of shot off my front deck of about 3 miles. Within 30 minutes I can be where I could shoot maybe 10+ miles. Most people don't have access to that type ranges. I guess you could say that shooting is a part of the hunt and you can't seperate them but then I would say we need some system to insure that people really can shoot befor they are allowed to hunt, maybe we do anyway. Years ago I started discribing myself as more of a shooter than a hunter. I still do. I spend a lot more time perfecting shooting skils, bad as they may be by some standards, than I do perfecting hunting skills. I think all good shooters do.

Once again, Larry and Sourdough I hope neither of you take offence to what I've written here. It's not ment to be personnal and if you took it that way, I apoligize in advance.
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline jro45

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2006, 06:36:54 AM »
I know that shooting is not hunting. You have to hunt before you shoot. Once the game is found and a shot is fired the hunt is over.

I shoot at a 600 yd range that doesn't mean that I could shoot  game at 600 yds. I have a good rest but when hunting I only have whats there. If every is right I would take a 600 yd shot. That would be on me to decide.

Offline roper

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2006, 08:06:00 AM »
I assume the bulls CH was talking about were in different years or states as Co only allow one bull per hunter, I was wondering if CH partner had a elk tag.  I heard over the years lots of stories  as why a hunter hasn't taken a shot on elk but CH tale is the first for me but I don't know what he means by the biggest he's ever seen.  I've seen some mighty big bulls here afew would go book even saw one down out of Flagstaff,Az afew weeks ago that take your breath away.

Since there seems to be afew elk hunter here I'd like to ask a question if you saw a legal bull here in Colorado it has to be 4pt most areas would you pass on one if you had a shot like CH did?    I can see if your in a area that your seeing alot of bulls and you pass on a 4pt to take a bigger one but that chance may not come. 

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2006, 08:07:15 AM »
Who really cares if anyone approves of long distance shots while hunting. I don't need any ones approval to hunt the way I see fit. As long as it is legal I could care less about anyone's like or dislike for long distance shooting of game.

To me I get annoyed when people think they are the person to judge others. Just who do they think they are by passing judgement on other hunters??? If you don't like long distance shooting, DON"T DO IT, but let other that choose to do so, do it.  >:(
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Offline S.S.

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2006, 08:49:30 AM »
Trying to get Closer is what makes it hunting to me...
Is it hunting if you are not close? Of course.
I just enjoy getting as close as I can.
I was Bow hunting last evening and got to within
10 paces of a doe and two fawns. And I am not a small
fella'--and not very athletic to boot ...
I am , however, Very patient.
If I can do it, Most folks should be able to..
I know that some places simply do not have the terrain
and vegetation available to make a good spot and stalk though.
so I can not make a statement that long range shooting at game is not hunting.
I hunt a lot on Clear cuts and power line clearings and long shots
present themselves pretty regularly in those areas.
It is a trick to get a buck to stop as he passes across a powerline
a few hundred yards out. I will not take a shot at a moving deer
that far away.

(Kind of makes me wonder what went through those deer's minds
when I raised up out of the Rye Grass yesterday :o or maybe  ??? or
 ::) Theres that fat guy again!
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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2006, 08:50:14 AM »
roper –

All the elk were in Colorado.  The two bulls were the same year (but different days) and I went home empty-handed but happy.  The first had 7 points on the side that I counted.  The second one had a huge body and massive main beams - there was no question from the length that he was well beyond the 4 point requirements. Only got a quick glimpse of the rack before his head disappeared behind a big aspen, but I was pretty sure I saw 6 points and maybe 7. Couldn’t tell for sure with his head behind the aspen.

The first bull went free because Dave already had one down.  Had my rifle up twice on that one and let it walk.  The second one went free because it was our last day, in the last couple minutes of shooting light.  Pulling the trigger would have meant a lot of work and I decided having it in my crosshairs was close enough – no need to ruin a good hunt with a lot of work!

Dave always has an elk tag, as do I.  We usually put in for cow tags and I buy an OTC bull tag as well. That year we both had bull tags only.
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Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2006, 09:58:47 AM »

Once again, Larry and Sourdough I hope neither of you take offence to what I've written here. It's not ment to be personnal and if you took it that way, I apoligize in advance.

Don

I take no offense and for the most part agree with you after all this is a discusion.  Hunting with any firearm IS getting close to the game AND shooting. As you state; each of us makes a choice.  The choice in hunting is to get with OUR effective range of the game for whatever weapon we are using.  If just "getting as close" as possible is the objective then perhaps counting coup or photgraphy would be the better choice.  In hunting I do not know of any hunter who, when presented a good shot within his effective range with his weapon, will choose not to shoot on the chance they "may" get closer.  My point here is an ethical hunter will get as close as they can for and "effective" shot.  Also; "getting closer" is no guarentee of making the shot either.  I missed a very nice deer once that I stalked to less than 50 yards because I didn't see the small limb about 20 feet in front of the muzzle.  I just recently missed a very nice blue grouse at about 20 yards when I had a perfect lead and swing on him, a pine tree leaped right out between me and that grouse as I pressed the trigger on my shotgun!  It is unfortunate that many hunters do not take the time to learn their skill (effective range) and blast away at whatever the range is.  These are the ones who don't really "hunt" anyway but just ramble over hill and dale.  As to those who specifically set up for long shots; they are most often quite proficient at what they do. For me; I hunt and I shoot but I will not shoot until I have "hunted" within my effective range of the game animal.  I have passed up shots a lot closer to that one on that elk. Good discussion.

Larry Gibson

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2006, 10:30:51 AM »
Definition:  Hunting is the practice of "pursuing" animals to capture or kill them.  In modern use, the term refers to regulated and legal hunting. 

Five yards or 300 yards if I am pursuing I am hunting.   If I am in the act of attempting to Kill the animal my pursuit has ended and Shooting begins.  So one yard or 1000 yards if I pull the trigger I am shooting.   A better question would be "300 yards and beyond do you feel it is ethical ".   
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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2006, 02:38:13 PM »
Definition:  Hunting is the practice of "pursuing" animals to capture or kill them.  In modern use, the term refers to regulated and legal hunting. 

Five yards or 300 yards if I am pursuing I am hunting.   If I am in the act of attempting to Kill the animal my pursuit has ended and Shooting begins.  So one yard or 1000 yards if I pull the trigger I am shooting.   A better question would be "300 yards and beyond do you feel it is ethical ".   

Everyone's opinion on ethics is different, just as anything else. It is just an opinion. I have been hunting for over 30 years and I don't need someone telling me what they think is right or wrong or what is ethical or not. As long as it is legal nothing else matters.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2006, 06:39:11 PM »
Who really cares if anyone approves of long distance shots while hunting. I don't need any ones approval to hunt the way I see fit. As long as it is legal I could care less about anyone's like or dislike for long distance shooting of game.

To me I get annoyed when people think they are the person to judge others. Just who do they think they are by passing judgement on other hunters??? If you don't like long distance shooting, DON"T DO IT, but let other that choose to do so, do it.  >:(

Redhawk, I feel exactly the same way. But I do find it to be very entertaining when some "feel" they know the distance where hunting turns into shooting. I gave examples earlier, but let's say you have scouted an area in Farm country very well & you know the trails the Deer use to travel from river bottom thickets to Alfalfa fields. You know that there are 2 good vantage points that take advantage of the wind & concealment, in other words you are being a hunter here. Now, one of the vantage points let's you see some of the trails out to 200 yards or so, however the other vantage point gives you a view of all of the trails, some out to 400 yards or a little more. This is the same hunter who uses camo/concealment, wind direction, every enviormental advantage possible just like a bow hunter, & actually he does that too.
Now, please explain if the hunter uses the higher vantage point & is hunting all of the trails the same way, then how is he a worse hunter than if he watched from vantage point  & why would the longer shots be shooting only? How 'bout hunting & shooting combined, wow, what a concept!!!  ;D

Oh, & we should always be responsible for what we do. If we can't mention anything because some undisiplined idiot may try it, then we can't discuss much of anything, kind of a Liberal view I cannot agree with.
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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2006, 06:58:37 PM »
Definition:  Hunting is the practice of "pursuing" animals to capture or kill them.  In modern use, the term refers to regulated and legal hunting. 

Five yards or 300 yards if I am pursuing I am hunting.   If I am in the act of attempting to Kill the animal my pursuit has ended and Shooting begins.  So one yard or 1000 yards if I pull the trigger I am shooting.   A better question would be "300 yards and beyond do you feel it is ethical ".   

Everyone's opinion on ethics is different, just as anything else. It is just an opinion. I have been hunting for over 30 years and I don't need someone telling me what they think is right or wrong or what is ethical or not. As long as it is legal nothing else matters.

Redhawk1
I pretty much agreed with you up to the point of "As long as it is legal nothing else matters".  In fact that was my point, the argument on Shooting or Hunting at 300 yards is just opinion.  That is what is being shared; each persons opinion on the definition.  It is legal at the moment.   If I follow your logic that "as long as it it legal nothing else matters"  fishing with dynomite would be okay as long as our goverment in their ifinite wisdom legalized it.    Thanks for sharing your opinion.   Hmmm I think I shall move on to a less intellectual and more technical thread.   ;D
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2006, 08:19:39 PM »
I don't know who said it first but "just because it's legal, don't make it right" seems to fit in here somewhere. 
I kinda agree that we shouldn't try too hard to mandate our ethics on someone else but for someone just starting out, it could be valuable information.  Just as we preach to err on the side of caution in reloading; its not a bad lesson to teach that it's better to walk away from a shot and think that you probably could have made it than to try it and fail. 
By the way, I thought this was gonna be a poll of some sort.  With the folks that think shooting game at 301 yards was shooting and at 299 yards it was hunting being counted and then the other side taking a count.  I should have known it was gonna turn into another silly-a$$ed argument that generates a whole lot more heat than light. 

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2006, 02:21:53 AM »
I should have known it was gonna turn into another silly-a$$ed argument that generates a whole lot more heat than light. 

I have to say that I find civil discussions where people have different views and a passion for their particular point of view to be much more interesting than those where everyone agrees.  Often more enlightening, too.

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2006, 03:35:23 AM »
I don't know who said it first but "just because it's legal, don't make it right" seems to fit in here somewhere. 
I kinda agree that we shouldn't try too hard to mandate our ethics on someone else but for someone just starting out, it could be valuable information.  Just as we preach to err on the side of caution in reloading; its not a bad lesson to teach that it's better to walk away from a shot and think that you probably could have made it than to try it and fail. 
By the way, I thought this was gonna be a poll of some sort.  With the folks that think shooting game at 301 yards was shooting and at 299 yards it was hunting being counted and then the other side taking a count.  I should have known it was gonna turn into another silly-a$$ed argument that generates a whole lot more heat than light. 

And your comment does what for this conversation????????? ???
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Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2006, 06:28:29 AM »
Definition:  Hunting is the practice of "pursuing" animals to capture or kill them.  In modern use, the term refers to regulated and legal hunting. 

Five yards or 300 yards if I am pursuing I am hunting.   If I am in the act of attempting to Kill the animal my pursuit has ended and Shooting begins.  So one yard or 1000 yards if I pull the trigger I am shooting.   A better question would be "300 yards and beyond do you feel it is ethical ".   

Everyone's opinion on ethics is different, just as anything else. It is just an opinion. I have been hunting for over 30 years and I don't need someone telling me what they think is right or wrong or what is ethical or not. As long as it is legal nothing else matters.

Redhawk, let me get this straight. If I decide to shoot at elk at 500yds with my 243 and my 75gr V-Max load, that's ethical? It is certainly legal in this state. I guarente you if I can hit a rock chuck at 500yds, I can damn sure hit an elk!

One more though, if I couldn't shoot my way out of a paper bag,it's still ethical to blast away at game animals at any range I choose? It is legal!
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2006, 09:05:33 AM »
I can't speak for Redhawk & no doubt he is very capable of taking care of himself. But anyone who has read his many posts know that he would not shoot a big game animal with a 243 & 75 V-Max at close range, 500 yards or any other yardage. Does he need to provide every detail for you, yes he could have said anything legal & with the proper round for the job, but this time he didn't. Redhawk is the guy that some of you tease for using premium bullets (way diff. from V-Max) & using bigger rounds some as well, REMEMBER!!!  ::)
If a jughead from AR can understand that, you fella's can too, come on.  ::)   
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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2006, 10:03:15 AM »
Definition:  Hunting is the practice of "pursuing" animals to capture or kill them.  In modern use, the term refers to regulated and legal hunting. 

Five yards or 300 yards if I am pursuing I am hunting.   If I am in the act of attempting to Kill the animal my pursuit has ended and Shooting begins.  So one yard or 1000 yards if I pull the trigger I am shooting.   A better question would be "300 yards and beyond do you feel it is ethical ".   

Everyone's opinion on ethics is different, just as anything else. It is just an opinion. I have been hunting for over 30 years and I don't need someone telling me what they think is right or wrong or what is ethical or not. As long as it is legal nothing else matters.

Redhawk, let me get this straight. If I decide to shoot at elk at 500yds with my 243 and my 75gr V-Max load, that's ethical? It is certainly legal in this state. I guarente you if I can hit a rock chuck at 500yds, I can damn sure hit an elk!

One more though, if I couldn't shoot my way out of a paper bag,it's still ethical to blast away at game animals at any range I choose? It is legal!

Don, if I have to spell out everything for you, it is time you quit hunting and shooting. Most of hunting is common since which some people lack, but most know from experience. Also I know there are new hunter and shooters that come here and read our posts, I  think most are smarter than you give them credit for.  You assume to much and try to create animosity between everyone. Come on give it a break, use some of that common since before you post.
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Offline Don Fischer

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2006, 11:52:36 AM »
Redhawk, YOU are the one that said, "if it's legal, nothing else matters". you did say that, right? Try to believe this, not every one that hunts goes to or pays heed to these web sites. You sir, are an example of why some of the things even you might not like happen. To many people un-willing to say anything, probally for fear someone will take a look at them!

I can't speak for Redhawk & no doubt he is very capable of taking care of himself. But anyone who has read his many posts know that he would not shoot a big game animal with a 243 & 75 V-Max at close range, 500 yards or any other yardage. Does he need to provide every detail for you, yes he could have said anything legal & with the proper round for the job, but this time he didn't. Redhawk is the guy that some of you tease for using premium bullets (way diff. from V-Max) & using bigger rounds some as well, REMEMBER!!! ::)
If a jughead from AR can understand that, you fella's can too, come on.  ::)

Nobody said he would. What I said was it is legal and therefore according to Redhawk, acceptalbe!  "IF IT'S LEGAL, NOTHING ELSE MATTER'S". That is Redhawk's quote, not mine!!!
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2006, 01:37:21 PM »
Well, we've gone from badgering anyone with a different opinion to snide remarks and telling folks they're stupid and should stop hunting. 

Redhawk, I'd say my comments added more to the discussion than your "its legal and that's all I care about, neener, neener,neener" gem.   ;D  There was a question asked.  I answered it AS IT PERTAINS TO ME.  And I tried to give the reasons for why I have set these parameters for ME.  I certainly didn't come up with any BS about someone else being wrong 'cause they didn't do it the way I did.  I did throw the BS flag on the long boring posts about how its just impossible you know  to get closer and I'll do it again.  I've hunted too long and I know better. 

I'm outa this one. 





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Re: 300 yards and beyond - is it "hunting" or just "shooting"?
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2006, 05:30:48 PM »
Never changes does it.  First it starts out with Q&A's, then gets warmed up, then comes the quot'n' and more insert quot'n' then post includ'n', then the pecker waving and finally the measuring.  If the posters were face to face, the yelling and punch'n' comes next.  Total bull ****.   All over something as menial as "How fer dija.... ;D >:( 8)

I was out with my 22-243 today looking for the last squirrel above ground and seeing how the load was really going to work out.  My favorite spot has two small humps left over from digging water tanks.  They are 375 and 450 yards respectively from a nice, cool shady spot.  I set up there several times a year.  I also have ranges out to 800 yards marked out so I can check out any rifle I want for actual bullet drop.  There are always cattle around so I can scope them out, measure the cross hairs, work on range estimation and all the other mundane minutia involved in killing critters.  I've done the same where ever I lived for the past 50 odd years.

I fired about 30 rounds of 22-243l at my favorite rocks and after getting the drop figured, the rocks started dying left and right, even with a stiff right to left wind.

Had the rocks been deer, elk, moose, yotes or squirrels, they wouldn't have stood a chance.  I don't think I'm an especially great shot but I haven't had any trouble taking 3 yotes out of that area at up to 600 yards, that's measured from "my spot" to the last water tank hump that makes a dandy backup and where I usually set up a target or a gong for the in-between times.  And literally hundreds of squirrels off both the other humps or in the grass for hundreds of yards in three directions.

My point is...shooting an animal at any range you can put a bullet into the kill zone is as simple as making coffee....IF....   You know your limitations, the rifle and bullets capabilities and stay within them.  You can't be stupid and expect the animals to lay down and die, or shut your eyes and spray and pray.

I'm not sure where all this hooha about 300 yards comes from.  If you do your home work, have your rifle sighted in correctly and it shoots groups instead of patterns, paid a little attention to learning the bullet drop and use some kind of laser measuring device or know what your crosshairs measure and can hit a squirrel at 100 yards, you can take something the size of a deer at 400 relatively easy.  Real measured yards, not guesses.   It's done all the time.  

Maybe hitting a target the size of a squirrel from 100 to 400 yards consistently with my varminter rifle AND my large game rifles gives me a different perspective.  It aint' no thang bro and certainly nothing to go nuts over ??? and there are plenty of better shots out there than I am.

Hooting and hollering on the 'net never got anything constructive done that I know of, but it seems it is de rigueur these days.

Enjoy