Author Topic: What say you ?...  (Read 2811 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31274
  • Gender: Male
What say you ?...
« on: October 14, 2006, 04:11:21 AM »
  I have been on this forum for a long time and hve enjoyed it much...my favorite place on the web..

   As I read the many posts, I find much agreement, some disagreement..and much, much humor...some not intended.

    Some contributors here it seems, can NEVER find our country or it's elected leaders ever doing anything right.

   Now; I realize that no country, person or plan is ever perfect..the bestl we can hope for from fallen man is a good average !

  But there are some thing that are patently ridiculous..

  A) The United States liberates 20 million people in Afghanistan and 60 million people in Iraq from brutal dictatorships.

  B) The United States rushes to the rescue of people all over the world who are caught up in natural disasters and man-made
 disasters..

  C) The United States provides billion$$$ to combat aids and other diseases all opver the world.

  D) The United States stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the ONLY true democracy in the middle east.

  E) Our stock market is soaring..helping our economy and many others.

  F) The administration has prevented any successful attacks by terrorists on our homeland for 5 years..and helped others in protecting themselves from the same.

 G) The United States has taken the lead in the world in the battle against Islamofacist terrorists for several years now.


    These are just a few of the many great things the US has done in the last five years...but according to some of our fellow posters, the United States, the present elected leaders and our military /intelligence services have done NOTHING right and have not succeeded at anything..

   So, here's the obvious question:

   Do you think that a few of our fellow posters without saying so..are closet ragheads ?...LOL
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nabob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2006, 06:00:09 AM »
Heard that same sort of baloney at the beginning of the war: "Those that don't agree with the Administration are traitors." "Can't be against the war without also offering aid and comfort to the enemy."

It was baloney then and it is baloney now, in your post, ironglow. It is an ad hominem argument, yet another logical fallacy you've fallen victim to. You can read about it at http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

It is an attempt to ridicule the person making the argument instead of addressing the argument itself. If that's the best response one can muster up, it is kind of pathetic.

Offline Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4694
  • Gender: Male
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2006, 07:21:55 AM »
Nabob, that is exactly what the Dem's and lefties have been doing all along.  We hear it constantly, "Bush is an idiot, Bush is a warmonger, Bush is ruining the economy," etc., etc., and therefore all of the good things that Ironglow just listed are either propoganda, or just not worthy of notice.  Some of the same crybabies that say "you can't question my patriotism" are the same ones who have no qualms about equating Bush with Hitler or questioning his patriotism (i.e. "he only went to war over oil", or more insanely "to get even for his daddy").  Funny thing is none of these great patriots ever seem to offer any solutions, or praise any of the good things this country is doing, they can only spew vile hateful attacks.  It takes no great bravery or intellect to blindly attack everything the opposition is doing, especially when offering no solutions, only critiscm.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline nabob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2006, 07:42:30 AM »
So because you disagree with the left when they do it, you do it as well? What kind of logic is that?

Actually, questioning the motivation for the war is NOT the same as questioning someone's patriotism. Questioning someone's patriotism would entail something such as "Bush is a traitor", which, btw, I HAVE heard and object to as well. Questioning someone's motivations would entail something like "I think Bush went to war over oil". The first statement is about Bush as a person, the second is about Bush's policies. Two different things entirely.




Offline Brett

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5148
  • Gender: Male
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2006, 10:53:39 AM »
I will admit that Bush is not doing all that I think he should be doing in some areas but I believe on a whole he is doing a lot more and or a lot better than any Democratic leader would be doing.   If the Democrats had control taxes would be up, our military would be under the control of the UN and 20 thousand illegal aliens would be granted amnesty.  You would have to be a member of the privileged class in order to own a firearm of any type,  the stock market would be in the toilette and Islamic terrorists would be free to reek havoc on our own soil instead of being kept busy in their own sandboxes. 
Life memberships:  <><, NRA, BASS, NAFC

Online ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31274
  • Gender: Male
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2006, 10:54:39 AM »
Please note the sentence immediately following the enumerated list;

  " There are just a few of the many great things the US has done in the last five years..but according to some of our fellow posters the United States, the present elected leaders and our military/intelligence services have done NOTHING right and have not succeeded at anything.".
  
  Frankly; if one can take that list:

  1) The US

  2) Our elected leaders

  3) Our military

  4) Intelligence services

...and then NEVER say to ANYONE on that list " well you did that right !".."good job!"  then that person is really in great company..people like Fidel Castro, Saddam Hussein, Hugo Chavez and Kim Jung Il...also cannot admit (even to themselves) that any of those four entities have ever done anything right....

  So what are we to think of an "American" that apparently agrees with that " gang of four" !

   Again..what say guys ?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nabob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2006, 11:13:45 AM »
Please also note the sentence at the bottom of the original post:

"Do you think that a few of our fellow posters without saying so..are closet ragheads ?"

Ad hominem argument = logical fallacy.

Actually, this is a specialized version of the ad hominem, called ad hominem abusive. You can read about it at http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html

Offline Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4694
  • Gender: Male
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2006, 07:45:53 PM »
Quote
Questioning someone's motivations would entail something like "I think Bush went to war over oil". The first statement is about Bush as a person, the second is about Bush's policies.

OK, then in that case I maintain that these Dem leaders who attack Bush and the war effort unceasingly are doing so in order to further their own, and their political party's, power over what is best for the Country.  Therefore, I am not questioning their patriotism, just their motivations.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline nabob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2006, 11:21:37 PM »
Could be you are correct.

Of course, they are busily questioning your motivations and that of the Republican party as well.

Nobody wants to actually talk about the issues, they'd prefer to talk about the defects in their opponent. Such is the state of public discussion these days. We've told ourselves so often that "the other side" is so evil, completely full of knaves and cynical powerseekers that THAT becomes the issue, not Iraq or the economy or security or anything. That, to me, is the triumph of politics on both sides over policy.

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2006, 12:02:59 AM »
What say you!!!
Well now, since you asked.
This nation is, well, just a bunch of guys trying to get along.
We hit the mark sometimes and have flyers a lot too often. Mostly due to poor thinking and shortsidedness.
These wars of liberation, well, hummmm. I am not at all convinced that we have liberated anything or anybody. We have changed leadership of these places--for now--but to say for the good of the people is subjective, at best.
Sometimes we try to do good and end up doing bad--Viet Nam comes to mind quickly.
Sometimes we just act like a bully.
We got ourownselves into this "we are the defenders" thing and ate the whole thing.
We could do better if we stopped before we acted and considered the possible out come of our actions--but we have not as of late, and, once again it is the people who have to shoulder the burden of some leaders poor ability to make decisions---and we have made a few of late.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline magooch

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6641
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2006, 03:54:26 AM »
I always try to keep one thing in mind and that is that if President Bush hadn't done almost everything that he has, the same people who are so critical of him would be on him for not having done those exact things.

Who was pushing for action against Iraq the hardest before Dubya became President?  that's right--it was the Dumbycrats.  Who was it that came on TV at least three times since 2003 and said that he believed that President Bush did the right thing with regard to Iraq and that he would have done the same thing?  That's right--Bubba.  OF course, now he would deny that, but it is on video.

And I don't know about our recalcitrant peers on this forum being ragheads--they just have their own opinons and they are welcome to them.
Swingem

Offline THE DOC

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Gender: Male
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2006, 06:27:09 AM »
I just love to read political debate from across the Pond , but this dumb Brit is wise enough to stay well clear of commenting . However I do not believe that most of my friends could have such an intelligent debate as you are doing , most would say " a plague on all your houses " . Then again we have six parties to contend with .

Swampman

  • Guest
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2006, 03:11:33 PM »
Liberals/Terrorist = same thing

Offline muskeg13

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 208
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2006, 07:32:18 PM »
I think there are lots of closet ragheads out here, always trying to put us down from within.  After being all I could be, this politically incorrect retired "Army of One", thinks the state of the nation is actually pretty good.  Overall, Mr. Bush has done a good job thus far, as well as could be expected of anyone.  Sometimes his best has been very good, take the economy, taxes, overall crime rates and most importantly, our rights to gun ownership.  More often than not, important issues are best correctly defined in black or white, for us or against us, terms. IT IS that simple when it comes to most moral and ethical questions.

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2006, 08:28:01 PM »
  I have been on this forum for a long time and hve enjoyed it much...my favorite place on the web..

   As I read the many posts, I find much agreement, some disagreement..and much, much humor...some not intended.

    Some contributors here it seems, can NEVER find our country or it's elected leaders ever doing anything right.

   Now; I realize that no country, person or plan is ever perfect..the bestl we can hope for from fallen man is a good average !

  But there are some thing that are patently ridiculous..

  A) The United States liberates 20 million people in Afghanistan and 60 million people in Iraq from brutal dictatorships.

  B) The United States rushes to the rescue of people all over the world who are caught up in natural disasters and man-made
 disasters..

  C) The United States provides billion$$$ to combat aids and other diseases all opver the world.

  D) The United States stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the ONLY true democracy in the middle east.

  E) Our stock market is soaring..helping our economy and many others.

  F) The administration has prevented any successful attacks by terrorists on our homeland for 5 years..and helped others in protecting themselves from the same.

 G) The United States has taken the lead in the world in the battle against Islamofacist terrorists for several years now.


    These are just a few of the many great things the US has done in the last five years...but according to some of our fellow posters, the United States, the present elected leaders and our military /intelligence services have done NOTHING right and have not succeeded at anything..

   So, here's the obvious question:

   Do you think that a few of our fellow posters without saying so..are closet ragheads ?...LOL

A....Why...since when did we become the worlds police force?...These folks have been at each others throats for over 3000 years...and we ain't ever going to change them from killing each other...There are too many factions that will kill on site someone not of their own religion or beliefs......They don't think like us...They don't have the same morals as we do..nor the same values.They don't have our lifestyles.....Most Have Nothing...and no way to get it...except to pick up a rifle and joing a group...or be influenced by radical clerics....We cannot fight them like we would in any type of normal battle...anywhere else in the world...These radicals ...want to die......they have nothing else to live for...and it won't stop...The common people there have been oppressed by all of the splinter groups and oppressive governments...many that we have supported...They harbor these radicals...because they are sheep people...afraid to speak up least they are slaughterd...They aren't us...We wouldn't put up with it..To get them all...they would have to kill 1/2 or more of the civialian population...and we can't do this...As much as we are hated now by the rest of the world...we would be hated even more...and that would mean curtailiung more of our cival liberties...

B...Yup...your right as rain on this one...

C..Right again...

D...When it suits us we do...even Isreal is polorized along religious factions...and it's becoming ever increasing hard when they forget human rights...

E..Sure...the stock market is soaring...but...at who's expense in this country...and who is making the profits...Golly...If I owned a company that was making Billions in a quarter...I bet I could do more for this nation than any of them have so far...

F...Nope...this administration hasn't done a damn thing to keeep us safer..What they have done is to  errode our constitutional rights...period...The LEO's of this nation has stopped the attacks...just as they did  before 9-11

G...Ohhh Please...You honestly think this?...Talk to some of the folks in other countries where they are under attack everyday and see what is being done on the international front...Sure we have made inroads...but we aren't leading the way...and are still learning from other countries...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline nabob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2006, 11:54:12 PM »
Just as a sidenote:

Calling someone a raghead is NOT in keeping with Christian principles, ironglow. It is derogatory terminology, such as n-gger, chink, slant, gook, kike. It has no business in the mouth of someone professing Christ's love, as you do.

I love the liberals=terrorists comment. It indicates one is unable to distinguish between people who disagree over politics and people who want to kill Americans. Gotta love the blind hatred involved in a statement such as that.


Swampman

  • Guest
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2006, 12:01:40 AM »
One wants to use politics and people to kill America. The other wants to  use politics and people to kill Americans.  Not that different really.  One wears a towel on their head, the other has a DNC ballcap.

Offline nabob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 633
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2006, 12:32:51 AM »
Right. Those that throw bombs and kill people are no different from anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint.

Liberals are out to kill Americans, in your estimation?

One could also turn the question around and say that anyone that agrees with you has a Swastika on his lapel.

Either way, it is wrong to equate the enemies of this country with those that simply disagree about the direction it should be headed. Substituting vilification for rational thought is part  of the manipulation the major parties engage in to control people.

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2006, 01:17:34 AM »
I have been thinking on Swampmans statement---Liberals/Terriorist=Same Thing.
I would see confusion in this thought and some amount of mis-information.
One must be extreme in the conservative to be a terriorist, in the sense of the conversation.
This nation was/is founded on most liberal thinking.
Let us use the terms correctly to keep the convesation on track and keep from confusing issues.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline WylieKy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 657
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2006, 12:24:06 PM »

  A) The United States liberates 20 million people in Afghanistan and 60 million people in Iraq from brutal dictatorships.

  B) The United States rushes to the rescue of people all over the world who are caught up in natural disasters and man-made
 disasters..

  C) The United States provides billion$$$ to combat aids and other diseases all opver the world.

  D) The United States stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the ONLY true democracy in the middle east.

  E) Our stock market is soaring..helping our economy and many others.

  F) The administration has prevented any successful attacks by terrorists on our homeland for 5 years..and helped others in protecting themselves from the same.

 G) The United States has taken the lead in the world in the battle against Islamofacist terrorists for several years now.


   
   Do you think that a few of our fellow posters without saying so..are closet ragheads ?...LOL

A: It seems to me that a brutal dictatorship is what it takes to keep these people in line. 1400 Years of a religion that dictates "Passion Rules Reason" has conditioned them to accept nothing less.  As a country, the United States was and is unwilling to do what is necessaary to win this fight, so we should not have got into it until we were ready to do what is necessary.  Instead of embroiling us in a no win ground war that is accomplishing little more than spawing more terrorists, we should have destroyed their government and infrastructure, then let them rebuild themselves.  If they rebuild into something that is still a threat to the US, wash and repeat as necessary.  Eventually, they will get it right.

Note: I think that the war itself has been a blazing sucess.  We one of the best friendly/enemy casulty rates in modern warfare.  The generals, troops, and even the administration have made sound decisions to limit friendly casultys.  The problem is that it will not work in the long run.  These people do not care and anything less than total, overwelming force will get through to them, thats why they need a dictator to keep them in line.

B: Yep, with little or no thanks.

C: Indeed we have, to the detriment of the next generation, and our own continued involvement in this catch 22.  Most of these situations where the US rides to the rescue are unsalvageable.  The reason disease and starvation are rampant is because the population has far outpaced the lands capacity to support them.  So the US steps in and gives them food and medecine to help them live long productive live.  Unfortunately, the only thing they produce is more children, wich then suffer the same disease and famine their parents did.  After 50 years and untold billions in support, Africa is no closer to supporting itself than it ever was, quite the opposite.

D: Ok, and to back up A:, the only Democrocy in the region is made up from transplants from around the globe.

E:  The reason our stock market is soring is because so many industries have shipped their labor to other countries where labor is vastly cheaper, thereby greatly increasing their profit margin.  For those that already have money to invest, and don't work for a living, this is great!

F:  I don't think the "terrorists" have tried very hard. Kind of hard to protect anything with a virtually open border.  It probably takes the Arabs a little while to learn Mexican accented Spanish, but once they do, our country will be wide open to them.

G:  Indeed.  I think the next few years will be telling in how effective that fight has been. See F.  They have taken a single, defeatable, enemy and splintered it into a shapeless, leaderless, hatefilled mob.  It has worked in the short run, but we will see if and what that mob evolves into.

I am not a rag-head, I'm Danish.  I don't know about anyone else though. 

WylieKy
This that I do, I do by my own free will.

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2006, 07:33:19 PM »
Mac, nabob and TM7 for the most part I am with you guys. But all this talk of how we help all these other poor countries. Well let’s put another approach or spin on this. Rather than provide all this military and weapons focused aid why don’t we give them what it is that they are with out and even more so now with the war. Such as infrastructure, you know communication, power, water, food, shelter, clothing, all the so called humanitarian aid. And which for the most part is provided by private America though donations from private citizens. No not us we are the “International Police” as someone put it so eloquently in their post. You know if my neighbor came to me demanding that I do anything or stop doing anything I would “bow up” and ask who the hell he thought he was. Now if the same neighbor came over and said hey Matt man I hate to say but blah… blah… is causing an issue for me do you think we could talk about this and come to a compromise. Though I might not really care to change what ever it is that I am doing I would be more apt to change. Now bare in mind it is most likely to late in Iraq and even N Korea. But wait till we go after Columbia and the rest of South America I bet we do the same thing that we have done in Iraq demand a change or force a change.

The whole reason we are in the Middle East is to have influence over Eurasia and build the Eurasian Pipeline. Say what “what pipeline” the one that is in the final planning stages now… and will be built by Halliburton or its subsidiaries… wait and see. But mind you our government be it dem or repub will push their demands on others just as they do us. We will never go into a country peacefully and with only the intentions to help the citizens, rather we will go in and put in place a government they are happy with and then say it was for the citizens. Notice I said we and they in the last sentence for it is our government who starts it and us citizens who do it. I have a dozen plus very close friends in the military and every one of them who I had heart to heart talks with while on leave tell me the same thing. “We are there to protect the new government and are doing nothing for the Iraqi people.” Now if a foreign government came to the US and ousted our government and demanded we acted how they told us would we? If they did very little to better us from where we were and more to take what we did have would we lay down and let them or would everyone on this forum being a gun owner fight till the ammo was gone and hit them with what ever we could pick up. Come on people think about it for just 1 minute… If you are going to use force you had better use twice the diplomacy as well otherwise you will have a full scale war… oh wait that is what they wanted anyway... never mind… use your head people...

Now do I support the troops, hell yeah, I wish each of them a speedy and safe return, and do I support what they are doing NO… But they are just following orders…

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Swampman

  • Guest
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2006, 12:27:50 AM »
The whole reason we are in the Middle East is to protect Israel, which is exactly what we should be doing.  I support stopping thugs.  The war is doing just that.

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2006, 12:58:52 AM »
Do what... If that was the case one would think we should be in syria or iran after all they were the big hezballa backers...

get a clue we are in the middle east for oil and drugs...

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Swampman

  • Guest
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2006, 01:28:22 AM »
They are next.  The Middle East is about Israel.....period!

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2006, 02:10:39 AM »
God will defend Israel--the middle east is about oil and power.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2006, 03:45:56 AM »
They are next.  The Middle East is about Israel.....period!

 Show me your logic and reasoning behind this comment... please I really want to understand your postition

Israel can kick ass all on its own, it does not need our help in that manner

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline WylieKy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 657
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2006, 05:26:25 AM »
If our current situation is about Israel, why are we in Iraq?  Other than a few nasty comments back and forth, Iraq has had little to do with Israel for years.  Unlike, say, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, or Jordan.  Half of which (Iran and Syria) posed a threat that was as great or greater than what Iraq did to the US.

WylieKy
This that I do, I do by my own free will.

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2006, 05:36:07 AM »
All one need do is look at the proposed path of the Eurasian pipeline and you will see why we are in Iraq but those who wish to speak uninformed seem to be buying into what the current administration is selling.

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline rockbilly

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3367
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2006, 06:08:01 AM »
As Mr Boosh would put it, we invaded Iraq because we THOUGHT they had WMDs.  North Korea does have them, are they next?  In my oipinion, North Korea is more of a threat to peace and stability in this world than Iraq ever was, but then again, North Korea does not have oil and is in the hip pocket of China.

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: What say you ?...
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2006, 06:11:26 AM »

well be not fooled war is on their minds and we will get to see one soon I am afraid and by this I do not mean Iraq I mean a real war with much needles loss of life on all sides...

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein