Author Topic: hanging up  (Read 1520 times)

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Offline amos

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hanging up
« on: October 14, 2006, 02:18:46 PM »
I have a glock 17 when i shoot it it is fine but when my son shoot's it it  will hang up is he not holding tight enough.

Offline Dee

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2006, 03:26:37 PM »
I have a glock 17 when i shoot it it is fine but when my son shoot's it it  will hang up is he not holding tight enough.

Amos, I am a retired police weapons instructer. The dept. I worked at allowed officers to carry approved duty weapons of their own choice. As an instructer it was my job to inspect all weapons carried on street by every officer. I also test fired each and every weapon that went on the street, checking the sights and making sure of proper functioning. It was absolutely a delite to shoot an officers Glock 17 with an intentional loose grip, and see the look on his face when the pistol jammed before his very eyes, when the instructer was shooting it. With very little effort I could consistantly jam a 17 using this loose grip. No offense, but try doing this with a 40 cal. or 45 cal. Glock. Does that tell you something about the 9mm cartridge? Even the military has seen the error of going to the 9mm. Can you see this happening when someone under stress is trying to defend himself or his family with this anemic cartridge and because he is under stress he is using a loose grip. The Glock pistol in other, more potent caliburs is a very reliable pistol. The 17 is very unreliable if one forgets his grip.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline amos

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2006, 05:55:14 AM »
Thank     all i need to know

Offline Keith L

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2006, 01:24:44 PM »
The counter is that with a proper grip they are reliable.  I have shot thousands of rounds through  my Model 19 without a problem.  Lots of autos are a problem if you limp wrist them.  One officer on a local force couldn't use his  Beretta while taking a medication he was perscribed because it relaxed him to the point where the gun wouldn't cycle.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline Dee

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2006, 01:34:03 PM »
The counter is that with a proper grip they are reliable.  I have shot thousands of rounds through  my Model 19 without a problem.  Lots of autos are a problem if you limp wrist them.  One officer on a local force couldn't use his  Beretta while taking a medication he was perscribed because it relaxed him to the point where the gun wouldn't cycle.

It would seem to me that if the officer was that impaired while on medication, he shouldn't even be handling a gun, much less shooting one. And I would certainly hope that his supervisors (chief whatever) did not allow him to be on duty if that affected. It would be like handing a drunk the car keys. There is no counter in my opinion to a pistol so sensitve to an improper grip as the Glock 17 is. This pistol can be jammed at will by intentionally shooting with a loose grip. This is more a calibur problem than a design problem. The Glock 17 is notorious for this.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Keith L

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2006, 01:58:43 PM »
Point is that there are people desiring weapons for personal protection that can't handle a stronger round than 9mm.  If properly trained they can be more effective with a 9MM they can handle than with a 40 S&W or a 45ACP they can't control.  My defense weapon is a 45ACP, but if I get to the point some day where I can't handle the recoil of that gun the you can bet I will use my Glock.  It is a better alternative than going without.

The officer in question wound up at a desk until he was in shape again.  I agree that things other than his grip were in question.  His inability at the range was what showed his management that there was a problem.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline Dee

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2006, 04:37:32 PM »
I have know problem with the Glock. I have been a certified Glock Armorer for years. I carry a 1911, because I have been building them longer than Glock has existed. As I get older I am questioning myself as to wheather I should go back to the Glock or even a revolver. The discussion is not the Glock in general but, the Glock 17's record since being introduced, of being sensitive to a loose grip. The 9mm is a fair compromise for concealed carry, but has proven to be a poor stopper. I would question anyones choice as a primary duty carry, if they are serious about winning a fight, and have a choice of a better round. It has the poorest stopping record in law enforcement history. That is a documented fact thru FBI statistics dating back to the 1960s, and is consistant today. My wife for instance is not very dependable with an automatic, but deadly with a 38 special revolver. These same FBI statistics have proven in officer related shootings that a high capacity auto is not necessary in about 99% of these shoot outs. The average amount of ammo fired by both the assailant and the officer combined is less than 5 rounds total, and the averaged distance is less than 5 feet. I still feel very well armed with a Model 19 Combat Magnum or Model 66, or Model 686. All Smiths and all 357mag. The 357mag, 125 grain hollow point has maintained the best one shot stopping record in law enforcement history and still maintains that record since the 1960. These are FBI stats.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Arc Angel

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Hanging Up?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2006, 05:55:59 AM »
::)  Well, there’s another side to this coin!  Please don’t confuse me with a Glock apologist – Something which I, definitely, am not.  (I loath the taste of Kool-Aid!)  However, in defense of the Model G-17 I will say this:  It is the most popular and frequently used pistol in the world – Period.  Can it be forced to deliberately jam?  Yes, it can; but, let’s be entirely honest about this, so can a Model 1911-A1. 

The salient point is not, ‘Can I force a jam on a Model G-17?’  The fact is that with the right ammunition and properly held, the G-17 is an effective and highly reliable combat pistol.  What is more, the shooting experiences of a novice shooter are not sufficient reason to label the G-17 as, either, a troublesome or inferior combat weapon. 

In my own experience as an instructor I’ve found that far more students will limp wrist and choke a 1911 than they ever will with any Glock design.  I watched many a novice shooter buy his first Model G-17, take it to the range, and fire hundreds and hundreds of rounds without so much as a single FTF! 

On the other hand I’ve known a few students who couldn’t get a dozen rounds out of a 1911 without a, ‘stovepipe’.  Now, ‘Why’ is this?  I used to think that the Glock’s increased slide speed was a factor; (and it may be) but, more significantly, I believe the Glock’s shallow grip angle and low bore axis give it an advantage over the higher-angled hold and raised bore axis on the 1911 frame.  Each pistol’s center-of-gravity is different:  On the Glock I always feel the weight of the gun bearing down along the front strap, pressing on top of my middle finger – The Glock has a decided, ‘forward pointing’ center-of-gravity. 

With a 1911 design I feel more of the pistol’s weight bearing down along the back strap, pressing into the web of my hand.  The Browning design places the 1911’s center-of-gravity more toward the rear of the frame in a, ‘downward balanced’ grip.  Experiment with these two designs for awhile; you should be able to see what I’m talking about.  Which design is the more natural pointer?  I really don’t know.  I do a lot of point shooting; and, I always seem to do slightly better with the 1911.  This may be more the result of growing up with a Colt rather than anything else, though.  There is a lot of, ‘personal tuning’ to the feel of the weapon in point shooting. 

Of one thing I’m certain, though:  It’s easier for a sparsely skilled student to limp wrist with a 1911 than it is with a Glock design.  Now, the question of a combatant limp wristing under the stress of combat?  Ahh, in my opinion, this ain’t never going to happen – Never!  Taking a hit or a loss of nerve are the only reasons I’m able to imagine somebody limp wristing (or dropping) his pistol in the middle of a gunfight.  Exactly the opposite is usually the situation.  The sudden stress of a gunfight more generally causes the weapon to be held with a, ‘death grip’ rather than anything, even remotely, resembling a limp wrist. 

As to the question of whether or not the 9mm Parabellum is a deficient combat round – a man-killer rather than a man-stopper?  Well, it certainly used to be!  Heavier bullets and modern hollow-point designs have, now, changed all that.  Today it is no longer necessary to, ‘freight a man down’ with an entire magazine of 9mm FMJ or second rate (Silvertip) combat ammunition.  If I were to carry a pistol charged with Gold Dot, 9mm, +P, 124 grain HP’s, I’d both know and feel that I was using a first rate handgun combat round; and, the Winchester, 9mm, SXT, +P+, 127 grain HP would, also, do the same thing for me! 

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_51/ai_n13785378/pg_4 

So what is a, ‘typical gunfight’?  The latest statistics I’ve read use the formula:  ‘3+3+3’.  That’s 3 shots exchanged, at or inside 3 yards, in 3 seconds or less.  Wow!  I’d have to say this, pretty much, agrees with all those convenience store robbery tapes I’ve seen on TV.  Anyway, this is (almost) exactly how I train.  I start at 3 yards and work my way back to:  5, 10-12, and 15 yards.  At each station I draw and fire as fast as I’m able to accurately hit the target.  The first shots are always from point, and then rise to the line of sight as the distance increases.  Sometimes, at the end of a session, I’ll do some old-fashioned postal shooting from 25 yards.  (I don’t know, ‘Why?’) 

I very much doubt that I’ll ever fire just one shot in a gunfight.  Me?  It’ll probably be, at least, three.  With sighted shooting I’m a firm believer in getting a, ‘rhythm’ going with a pistol.  Once the front sight is there and the elbows are slightly bent, (I use the isosceles stance.) I’ll just work that front sight on the target with:  minimal rise, minimal hesitation, and high practice ammunition costs! 

It’s funny; but, if you want to see really lousy handgun shooting (Exactly the opposite of what I’m talking about here) watch Robert De Niro use his 1911 in the movie, ‘Ronin’.  It’s going around, right now, on TV.  Absolutely horrible pistol handling form on De Niro’s part!  I don’t know how he managed to hit any of the bad guys.  (De Niro must have been the star of the movie; but, then again, this film is loaded with numerous technical faux pas!)  ;D 

Do you need more than the conventional six shots?  Yesterday, I would have said, ‘No.’  Today, however, I’d have to say, ‘Yes!’  Multiple assailants, like increasingly popular, ‘gangbanger’ robbery and hit teams are, now, commonplace in modern American society.  So are barricaded combatants, running pursuits, moving targets, and everyday lousy marksmanship.  All of these factors contribute to the need to carry more rather than less bullets. 

What do I carry everyday?  It’s a Glock Model G-21, with an extra 17 round magazine; I, also, carry a Beretta, ‘Tom Cat’ as a BUG.  Of course my belt-load, also, includes a large CRKT folder, and a cell phone. 



Would it matter to me if I were to carry a Model G-17, instead?  No, not with the right ammo package, it wouldn’t.  Besides, who really knows?  Nowadays, the extra rounds might come in handy; and, if the wrong situation should arise, you may count on me to hold that G-17 properly.  ;) 
Illegitimati Non Carborundum!

Offline Keith L

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2006, 07:57:15 AM »
I think the key to this is proper training.  My coach spent lots of time with each of us on the proper grip, stance etc. to make sure we knew what we were doing.  We then practiced under his watchful eye.  I still see him nearly weekly when I go and shoot, and he isn't shy to come and make suggestions.

Further, my understanding is that the angle of the grip on the Model 17 changed slightly a while ago.  I don't know since I shoot a Model 19, but is it possible that this made them more reliable?

And  I also agree with the proper choice of ammo and 15 or 16 shots the 9MM could be an acceptable choice.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline Savage

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2006, 09:10:59 AM »
Wow! I didn't know the 17 was infamous for limp wrist malfunctions!!!! I have a mdl 17 I bought a few years ago for SSP class IDPA and Speed Steel. When I first got it, I tried shooting it using the middle finger and the thumb only on the grip. Never did get that sucker to malfunction! Must have gotten a defective one ;)  Now my 3" 1911 is another story---------- :o
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Dee

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2006, 10:09:15 AM »
Wow! I didn't know the 17 was infamous for limp wrist malfunctions!!!! I have a mdl 17 I bought a few years ago for SSP class IDPA and Speed Steel. When I first got it, I tried shooting it using the middle finger and the thumb only on the grip. Never did get that sucker to malfunction! Must have gotten a defective one ;)  Now my 3" 1911 is another story---------- :o
Savage

I can certainly see where your coming from. That SSP, IDPA, and Speed Steel is some stressful stuff. It will really test you courage and control under fire. ;) ::)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline amos

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2006, 12:14:37 PM »
talked to dealer i got it from he said the 40 cal could be worse any bodys 40 hang.

Offline Dee

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2006, 03:04:35 PM »
talked to dealer i got it from he said the 40 cal could be worse any bodys 40 hang.

Amos, how old is your son. I carried two Glock 23s and never had a jam in thousands of rounds thru both, in all kinds of conditions. Dirt, rain, heat, and below zero weather. I took one of these 23s to a two week swat training session, and never cleaned it. I functioned perfertly the entire two weeks and over 1800 rounds of ammo. I put litheum grease on the frame rails once during this two weeks.The round however is stout. This entire issue is about slide momentum, and a loose grip dampening that momemtum. If your son is young, and not yet phyiscally strong enough, the forty would be a handful. The issue with the 17 is the full length slide being heavy and the nine mil having just enough power to cycle the slide in some loadings. Some of the guys on this thread have some valid possibilities of curing the problem such as a heavier bullet. A hotter load would possibly cure the problem. Regardless of what anyone says you have a problem that you yourself recognized. The pistol does not jam with you, but does with your son. The problem is what I described it to be, and it is valid. If others don't have this problem, then they don't have a grip issue. Try coaching your son, on a two handed grip, making sure his weak hand thumb does not end up behind the slide. Let him try puting his weak hand index finger on the front of the square trigger guard. It's square for this purpose. A solid grip is important on the 17 to avoid muzzel flip and robbing momentum. The forty as I said is stout but manageble depending on the kid. It is second in my opinion, only to the 45acp for street use, and this might be debatable. It is far and above a better round, and has proven so on the street where it counts. Good luck, and I'll bet you find a solution.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline OBXPilgrim

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2006, 03:17:05 PM »
Wow, I was kind of shocked to see this. 

I've had a G17 since 91-92 and never jammed it & never had any one else jam it by limp-wristing or any other method. 

I got a G21 that is as big a hand full as I can stand.  One day at the range after passing it around to everyone on the line (around '92-'93 IIRC -it was pretty well unseen by most at the time) - one (1) guy could limp-wrist jam that G21 every shot.  He could not understand what he was doing wrong even after I told him that he needed to shove his hand all the way up the grip!!   

He politely went back to hammering away with his .44 mag and didn't want to hear it from anybody (not a knock on .44s - I've got a 629, too)


Offline Dee

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2006, 04:01:01 PM »
Wow, I was kind of shocked to see this. 

I've had a G17 since 91-92 and never jammed it & never had any one else jam it by limp-wristing or any other method. 

I got a G21 that is as big a hand full as I can stand.  One day at the range after passing it around to everyone on the line (around '92-'93 IIRC -it was pretty well unseen by most at the time) - one (1) guy could limp-wrist jam that G21 every shot.  He could not understand what he was doing wrong even after I told him that he needed to shove his hand all the way up the grip!!   

He politely went back to hammering away with his .44 mag and didn't want to hear it from anybody (not a knock on .44s - I've got a 629, too)



As I said in my last post, if one does not have a grip issue this may never happen to them. It is not said to knock the pistol, merely to point out a sensitivity issue in grip. I had two 23s and two 21s and never had the problem or saw  it in these caliburs. However, I have no reason to doubt you as, your man was probably used to shooting his revolver single action with a very light trigger and letting it roll in his hand to dappen recoil. I saw numerous instances on the range as range master for a dept. of the 17 having  loose grip issues with various officers. It's like saying all Remington 700s are accurate out of the box. They are not, but most are. There are exceptions.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Arc Angel

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Hanging Up?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2006, 05:47:52 PM »
 ???  Two-handed hold, right!  I’m stuck because I honestly don’t know how to explain this?  When you’ve got a, ‘rhythm’ going during a rapid fire shot-string, there is an almost subconscious effort to flex your elbows and to stiffen your wrists in order to pull the front sight down.  (Maybe because if you try to control a pistol by using only your wrists it's not going to work for anything other than really slow-fire shot-strings.) 

This whole process amounts to something more than just correct trigger pull; instead, it’s like an additional step in the correct method of shooting a handgun – One that I will admit is unnoticeable until you begin to rapid fire the pistol. 

It’s this, ‘impulse’ to hold the front sight down that causes you to flex your elbows and stiffen your wrists.  I would have to imagine that if a student were to stand within 7 1/2 yards of the target, and consciously attempt to hold the front sight down while rapid firing the pistol, then, this same muscle memory could be used to overcome limp wristing. 

In short, don’t cooperate with the pistol; instead, make the pistol cooperate with you!  This is, ‘What’ I saw in De Niro’s very bad shooting form:  The camera clearly reveals that he allows the pistol to dictate his follow-up response by drawing his hand and lower arm up into the air after every shot - completely destroying his all-important sight picture.  That’s lousy CQB pistol shooting!  You can get away with this during slow fire postal matches, and continue to score well; but, never, in much faster paced, ‘action pistol’ sports.  ;) 
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Offline Dee

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2006, 02:41:18 AM »
I'm should have watched more shoot'em up movies. I didn't realize how much actual combat training was on them. I certainly hope that Tom Hanks gets ole Robert straigtened out before his next movie. It would throw off your training program. ::) One handed combat training other than LAST RESORT went out in the 50s when police officer instructers and ACTUAL COMBAT SURVIVORS realized a more solid platform made for better accuracy. I not talking about games. I'm talking about winning an actual fight where the targets SHOOT BACK with something other than paintballs or an electronic timer. I'm talking about a fellow officer who once put four rounds into an assailant who had gotten the first shot off at less than 8 feet. Three of the shots would have been fatal, all were made before the assailant started falling, all were made with a 357mag. revolver, and all were two handed. ::) He won the fight because he had good training. I wish I could take the credit, but I didn't train him. The man stood his ground, and won a REAL fight.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Keith L

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2006, 03:48:39 AM »
"He won the fight because he had good training."

That comment is solid gold.  I wish many of the folks I talk with who got pistols for personal defense and never got training (and never practice) would get that point. 

Thanks for that!
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline Arc Angel

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Hanging Up?
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2006, 03:55:56 AM »
  ::)  Hey Dee,  Was that a rant?  I haven't the slightest idea what you're so bent out of shape about?  Anyway, the information you've volunteer is severely dated and not entirely correct.  One-handed shooting didn't go out in the 50's.  It, 'went out' in the late 70's after Jeff Cooper's demonstrations and work at Big Bear.  

Perhaps I should, also, mention that, 'one-handed shooting' is, actually, still around.  Today we call it, 'point shooting' or, 'shooting from retention'.  

I, also, have no use for, 'gun games'.  I take what I do, and what I teach very seriously.  Maybe we should shoot together, sometime.  Might be a real eye opener for ya!   OK, buddy?  ;D  
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Offline Dee

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Re: Hanging Up?
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2006, 10:02:33 AM »
 ::)  Hey Dee,  Was that a rant?  I haven't the slightest idea what you're so bent out of shape about?  Anyway, the information you've volunteer is severely dated and not entirely correct.  One-handed shooting didn't go out in the 50's.  It, 'went out' in the late 70's after Jeff Cooper's demonstrations and work at Big Bear.  

Perhaps I should, also, mention that, 'one-handed shooting' is, actually, still around.  Today we call it, 'point shooting' or, 'shooting from retention'.  

I, also, have no use for, 'gun games'.  I take what I do, and what I teach very seriously.  Maybe we should shoot together, sometime.  Might be a real eye opener for ya!   OK, buddy?  ;D  


Yea, I'll bet it would be a real eye opener all right.  I've read Jeff Cooper and all though he is an original, his ideas were not exclusive to him. Also many people think his ideas are out-dated. He like me, didn't care what wanna be's thought. You give the info out that you've learned thru experience. Some take to it and some think they know better, having never fired a shot in anger. As far as being bent out of shape. Nope! I've met a lot of hot shots with all the answers. You lost my attention with the Robert Deniro comment. At my age I have learned the ones I want talk to are the ones with the actual experience on the street, instead of a gun range ego. I think I'll pass, and remain in the real world. It's not as silly or loud. By the way, I was training rookies in the MID-70s. I think I've said enough, nothing to be learned here. ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline amos

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2006, 06:01:30 PM »
my son is 10 and i have a ligament tear in both wrists so any thing with more recoil is not for me he is doing better with his grip.thanks

Offline Dee

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Re: hanging up
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2006, 01:03:01 PM »
my son is 10 and i have a ligament tear in both wrists so any thing with more recoil is not for me he is doing better with his grip.thanks
Good deal amos, 99% of the time you can train a bad habit or weakness out of a guy that young because he is impressionable and wants to do it the right way. Especially if his dad, is doing the teaching.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett