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Author Topic: Smokeless Black Powder  (Read 876 times)

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Offline nef-man

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Smokeless Black Powder
« on: October 14, 2006, 04:15:18 PM »
I just bought an inexpensive NIB .50 cal inline ($99) called a 'Legacy' - made in China. I'm guessing its an older model - nicely made and finished. One thing I've just noticed though is that imprinted into the barrel is the statement 'Use Only Smokeless Black Powder'. Did something get lost in the translation, is this a mistake, or is there really something I've missed all these years called 'smokeless black powder' ------ seems like this could be a recipe for disaster in the wrong hands (I'll be using no more than 110 gr. measured / 90 gr. weighed FFG 777 or American Pioneer ------ definitely NOT Win. 760 or the like. Anyone else come across this or had any experience with this model from the 'Shang Dong 1st Factory, China' via Century Arms International?
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Offline Biff Mayhem

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Re: Smokeless Black Powder
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2006, 04:49:11 PM »
All blackpowders and substitutes are classified as smokeless powder.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Smokeless Black Powder
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2006, 06:49:20 PM »
That's a new one on me. My barrels say use black powder only. Nothing about smokeless. Here is an article you can read.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm
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Offline nef-man

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Re: Smokeless Black Powder
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2006, 07:02:27 PM »
OK, well, TY for that - but I'm none-the-wiser. I thought that there was only 'blackpowder', 'blackpowder substitute' and 'smokeless powder'? This is getting too complicated!
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Smokeless Black Powder
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2006, 03:34:11 AM »
Quote from: nef-man on October 14, 2006, 07:02:27 PM
OK, well, TY for that - but I'm none-the-wiser. I thought that there was only 'blackpowder', 'blackpowder substitute' and 'smokeless powder'? This is getting too complicated!

I don't see the problem, there was nothing listed as Smokeless Black Powder. There is only 'blackpowder', 'blackpowder substitute' and 'smokeless powder'.  I think the imprinted statement got lost in the translation.
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Offline Biff Mayhem

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Re: Smokeless Black Powder
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2006, 05:18:08 AM »
Again.... smokeless blackpowder is blackpowder and/or substitutes -- not including smokeless powder.

If you want to shoot centerfire powders in your ML, you need to buy a ML that says "smokelss powder acceptable". Those three words I put in quotation does not have the word "blackpowder" inside.

Our government classifies normal ML powders in the smokeless classification. It's pretty obvious the Chinese are having a difficult time differenciating the difference (oxymoron) ;D. But what the Chinese write is not incorrect... just confusing -- but as long as the word "blackpowder" is included, it is defined "OK".

I expect them to get alot of questions & complaints. So will our Wildlife/DNR organizations. Sooner or later, they will reword it differently.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Smokeless Black Powder
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2006, 07:27:38 AM »
I'm pretty sure blackpowder is not classified as smokeless powder.  Blackpowder is classified as an explosive, while smokeless powder is classified as a propellant.  Shipping requirements are different for the two.
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Offline Busta

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Re: Smokeless Black Powder
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2006, 09:22:39 AM »
Quote from: Casull on October 15, 2006, 07:27:38 AM
I'm pretty sure blackpowder is not classified as smokeless powder.  Blackpowder is classified as an explosive, while smokeless powder is classified as a propellant.  Shipping requirements are different for the two.

Casull,

Im with you on this one. "Black Powder" is an explosive. "Black Powder Substitutes" (Pyrodex, Triple Se7en, APP, BM'3, Pinnacle etc.,) are NOT smokeless, but are approved by (DOT) to be shipped as such. Read everything on your containers.

I don't know what it says on the New Black Powder cans but I know there shipping requirements are a whole 'nuther ball game than the substitutes. Hard to even find Black Powder around these parts anymore.  Here is what it says on some of the containers I have for the substitutes.

Pyrodex RS & P - "DANGER EXPLOSIVE" Smokeless Propellant* (notice the astrisk) Extremely Flammable
* This designation required by US DOT for proper shipping and storage. Not nitrocellulose based.

Black Canyon, Clean Shot, American Pioneer Powder, Shockeys Gold - "DANGER EXPLOSIVE" Extremely Flammable.

Goex Clear Shot- "DANGER! PROPELLANT SOLID EXPLOSIVE!"

BlackMag'3 - "EXPLOSIVE AND EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE"

Triple Se7en - "DANGER EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE*" (notice the astrisk) Not Smokeless Powder, but approved to ship (DOT) and store (NFPA) as such.
*Triple Seven is not an Explosive regualted by Federal Explosive Law, but may explode if misused.

None of these substitutes claim to be SMOKELESS POWDERS, are not nitrocellulose based, but are approved to be shipped and stored like smokeless.

[EDIT] True "Black Powder" (Goex, Swiss, etc.,) are explosives, NOT nitrocellulose based, and have their own set of rules.


nef-man,

Bottom line concerning your rifle, DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER! Read the maximum loads for your rifle, use Black Powder or one of the BP Substitutes mentioned above following the manufacturers directions and you shold be fine. I'm surprised that they haven't had their butts sued off by stamping that on the barrel. You know someone will end up thinking they can actually use smokeless powder safely in it. While we all may know better, God help the poor sole who thinks he can. ???

If I were you, I would e-mail/write the American Distributor of those rifles and tell them of this grave mistake of stamping smokeless on the barrel. What ever happened to "Black Powder or Black Powder Substitutes ONLY"?


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Offline wanderer

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Re: Smokeless Black Powder
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2006, 10:39:31 AM »
Quote
True "Black Powder" (Goex, Swiss, etc.,) is nitrocellulose based, is a whole different animal, and has its own set of rules.

Blackpowder is not nitrocellulose based, but smokeless powders are. BP is carbon (charcoal), sulfur, and potassium nitrate (saltpeter). When shooting BP, the energy comes from the carbon being oxidized (C to C02). In smokeless I believe the energy comes from rapid decompisition reactions. The reason Pyrodex say not nitrocellulose based probably is to distinguish it from smokeless.

Here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_powder

Not that these are really critical details, the main point is to stick with BP, Pyrodex, or 777 unless you have a savage.
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Offline Busta

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Re: Smokeless Black Powder
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2006, 12:25:19 PM »
wanderer,

Thanks for pointing out my error. :-[ I went back and edited my post to correct it. Although I mostly shoot and hunt with Muzzleloaders, I can honestly say I haven't shot REAL Black Powder for over 16 years. :-[ I started using Pyrodex in the 80's and haven't bought any Black Powder since, but I have had to try every substitute that comes down the pike.  ::)  I wished I would have saved some of those old BP cans, probably be a collector item in the not so distant future. You can't even find Black Powder around here anymore, due to shipping and storing regulations. :'(
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Offline elkstalkr

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Re: Smokeless Black Powder
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2006, 07:24:16 AM »
At any rate, that statement on your gun could be VERY confusing for a newbie to ML'ing, and therefore very dangerous.
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Offline jh45gun

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Re: Smokeless Black Powder
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2006, 07:27:45 AM »
Bottom Line is the Chineese are notorious for screwing up our language and getting the translations wrong. What they meant was to use black powder or a black powder substitute. Ever watch Jay Leno he always is pointing out products that come from China that says dumb things on them or the packageing.
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