And another state has done it right.....Minnesota

[roundball]

This years ML season in MN prohibits the use of "Nitro or Smokelesss" powder ML firearms during the regular ML season.

As it should be...sounds like the citizens and wildlife department in Minn. have their heads screwed on straight...kudos to intelligent people making intelligent decisions.

[RemingtonMagnum]

"Ditto"

Don

[jh45gun]

I have been against the Savage smokeless gun from the git go and I did not call it a muzzle loader for the simple reason that if you shoot a copper bullet and a primer ignition and use smokeless powder what you have is basically a caseless centerfire, not a muzzle loader as per say. I have both traditional guns and one inline a NEF. Well my squirrel gun is kinda a inline but it is not a commercial made one. Anyway at least if you keep the powder black or a substitute at least that part of the chain is what is should be no matter what kind of gun your shooting.

[jlbeebe]

Doesn't the savage load from the muzzle? By definition I would have to call it a MUZZLOADER.

[wsmitty01]

Florida also prohibits nitro cellulose powders,,you have to go to the statutes to find it, but it's there but not listed in the hunting regulations published every year,,must use blackpowder or blackpowder substitutes.

[Odinbreaker]

Is there really a difference other than smokless Pwd the are aoo loaded from the front WI allows them must be more enlighten than the MUD Ducks

[jlbeebe]

As a person who owns and shoots both a sidelock and an inline I would have to say this sounds like alot of crying from a bunch of babies who don't want to share the woods with people carrying those "newfangled" rifles.
When I was about 8 years old my dad bought a hawkins .54 from dixie gunworks. I used that rifle to make my first muzzload kill and have hunted with it many years. I love that old rifle and still use it. I also have an inline I bought about 10 years ago and use it from time to time. Here in Iowa it is still my choice which rifle to hunt with. As it should be. My dad no longer hunts but shares the same opinion as many of the so called traditionalists. This makes for some rather interesting dabates. I guess that as a somewhat younger person who grew up around both types I am not prone to as opinionated as some who came before me. It is hard for me to take up a side for one or the other as I love to shoot them both. When I was younger we did the buckskinner thing and it was a lot of fun. I still have the rawhide possibles bag my dad made from the first deer he killed with that old .54.
I would still have to say that as someone who uses a sidelock I don't feel threatoned by those terrible inlines.

[jh45gun]

As a person who owns and shoots both a sidelock and an inline I would have to say this sounds like alot of crying from a bunch of babies who don't want to share the woods with people carrying those "newfangled" rifles.
When I was about 8 years old my dad bought a hawkins .54 from dixie gunworks. I used that rifle to make my first muzzload kill and have hunted with it many years. I love that old rifle and still use it. I also have an inline I bought about 10 years ago and use it from time to time. Here in Iowa it is still my choice which rifle to hunt with. As it should be. My dad no longer hunts but shares the same opinion as many of the so called traditionalists. This makes for some rather interesting dabates. I guess that as a somewhat younger person who grew up around both types I am not prone to as opinionated as some who came before me. It is hard for me to take up a side for one or the other as I love to shoot them both. When I was younger we did the buckskinner thing and it was a lot of fun. I still have the rawhide possibles bag my dad made from the first deer he killed with that old .54.
I would still have to say that as someone who uses a sidelock I don't feel threatoned by those terrible inlines.

I have nothing against inlines I have one myself along with my traditional ones. I am however against any muzzle loader using smokeless powder for various reasons. The main one is in the past there was major differences between a muzzle loader and a center fire rifle. One HUGE one was the powder used in both as one used black powder or a substitute and the other used smokeless powder which set the two apart. Use Smokeless in both of them and things start to get even more blurry crossing the lines that have been set as major differences. Use all the inlines ya want fine with me but keep the smokeless powder confined to the centerfires.

[Slamfire]

As a person who owns and shoots both a sidelock and an inline I would have to say this sounds like alot of crying from a bunch of babies who don't want to share the woods with people carrying those "newfangled" rifles.
When I was about 8 years old my dad bought a hawkins .54 from dixie gunworks. I used that rifle to make my first muzzload kill and have hunted with it many years. I love that old rifle and still use it. I also have an inline I bought about 10 years ago and use it from time to time. Here in Iowa it is still my choice which rifle to hunt with. As it should be. My dad no longer hunts but shares the same opinion as many of the so called traditionalists. This makes for some rather interesting dabates. I guess that as a somewhat younger person who grew up around both types I am not prone to as opinionated as some who came before me. It is hard for me to take up a side for one or the other as I love to shoot them both. When I was younger we did the buckskinner thing and it was a lot of fun. I still have the rawhide possibles bag my dad made from the first deer he killed with that old .54.
I would still have to say that as someone who uses a sidelock I don't feel threatoned by those terrible inlines.

Like a lot of folks, I didn't much care what you or anybody else chose to call a muzzleloader. Now that Mr Bridges has decided to attempt to outlaw prbs, sidelocks, and demands to use telescopes all season long, I have changed my stance. Let's keep the muzzleloader season PRIMITAVE. In line users are free to use their favorite rifles to compete with centerfire, cartridge rifles during the regular season. 

[longcaribiner]

Here in PA, we have a flint long rifle season after Christmas.  No scopes, no peep sights, no multi barrel guns.  Not even percussions allowed.  It is to preserve the tradition of hunting with a pre 1800 Pa long rifle.  Not to secure a kill with a space age centerfire front stuffer.  For all the in-line babies who cry foul,  I say learn to load and shoot a flinter or shut up.   I'm sure the historic basis for keeping the season for flinters only, just drives Mr. White's greedy little mind to distraction.  Further, Mr. Bridges must have apoplexy over our unsafe and  inhumane season.  I'm waiting for Wite and bridges to come out with a scoped electric ignition, laser guided in-line muzzleloader that fires heat seeking bullets and use infra red and radar to point out the deer. 

Toby, the idea is to go out and hunt.  If the purpose was solely to kill deer, we'd allow baiting for deer with tranquilizer grain.  Fat butt guys could just check the bait pile for a sleeping deer during the commercials that interrupt their football games.  And they could call that hunting  Folks could just waggle out and stick them like pigs.  Big brave hunter gets a deer with a knife.  Sure! 

[Ramrod]

Here in PA, we have a flint long rifle season after Christmas.  No scopes, no peep sights, no multi barrel guns.  Not even percussions allowed.  It is to preserve the tradition of hunting with a pre 1800 Pa long rifle.  Not to secure a kill with a space age centerfire front stuffer.  For all the in-line babies who cry foul,  I say learn to load and shoot a flinter or shut up.   I'm sure the historic basis for keeping the season for flinters only, just drives Mr. White's greedy little mind to distraction.  Further, Mr. Bridges must have apoplexy over our unsafe and  inhumane season.  I'm waiting for Wite and bridges to come out with a scoped electric ignition, laser guided in-line muzzleloader that fires heat seeking bullets and use infra red and radar to point out the deer. 

Toby, the idea is to go out and hunt.  If the purpose was solely to kill deer, we'd allow baiting for deer with tranquilizer grain.  Fat butt guys could just check the bait pile for a sleeping deer during the commercials that interrupt their football games.  And they could call that hunting  Folks could just waggle out and stick them like pigs.  Big brave hunter gets a deer with a knife.  Sure! 

longcaribiner, this is the best post I have ever seen on the traditional forum.

[slayer]

The Savage gun doesn`t move me one bit, but to each their own. I own flintlocks, sidelock percusiions, inlines and break opens. I only use Gowx Black but that is just a choice. I like that we have a flintlock season after christmas here in PA. I use my muzzleloaders in early antlerless muzzy season and in rifle season. I love them all!! Jack.

[jlbeebe]

Here in PA, we have a flint long rifle season after Christmas.  No scopes, no peep sights, no multi barrel guns.  Not even percussions allowed.  It is to preserve the tradition of hunting with a pre 1800 Pa long rifle.  Not to secure a kill with a space age centerfire front stuffer.  For all the in-line babies who cry foul,  I say learn to load and shoot a flinter or shut up.   I'm sure the historic basis for keeping the season for flinters only, just drives Mr. White's greedy little mind to distraction.  Further, Mr. Bridges must have apoplexy over our unsafe and  inhumane season.  I'm waiting for Wite and bridges to come out with a scoped electric ignition, laser guided in-line muzzleloader that fires heat seeking bullets and use infra red and radar to point out the deer. 

Toby, the idea is to go out and hunt.  If the purpose was solely to kill deer, we'd allow baiting for deer with tranquilizer grain.  Fat butt guys could just check the bait pile for a sleeping deer during the commercials that interrupt their football games.  And they could call that hunting  Folks could just waggle out and stick them like pigs.  Big brave hunter gets a deer with a knife.  Sure! 

longcaribiner, this is the best post I have ever seen on the traditional forum.

I for one am getting tired of the traditional crowd bashing inlines. I hunt with both kinds and don't feel the need to bash traditional weapons. I would like to see the officials do away with the muzzleloading seasons and call it firearms season. Then you can feel free to hunt with what you want and you will not have to do all this worrying about what the next hunter is using. Of course you will still have to share the woods with other hunters, which is what most this is about anyway.
 A laser guided,heat seeking bullet sounds kinda cool but I doubt that I could afford them anyway.

[longcaribiner]

jlbeebe, not bashing in-lines as firearms.  Here in PA there is a state historical  reason for the special season.  Do in-line affectionados cry foul because they can't use in-lines in archery season?  Of course not, because in-lines are not bows and arrows.  Nor are they flint lock long rifles.  Why should they claim some special right to be permitted in a season to promote hunting with a PA long rifle?  I have hunted and will continue to hunt with a muzzleloader, whether they have a special season or not.  Heck in Pa they recently considered legalizing Atlatls for deer.  after that it will be long spears and then Zulu short spears, maybe bolos, clubs and throwing knives.   Perhaps the nun-chucks folks will scream foul.   Not everyone gets to use their favorite hunting arm in seasons for the other arms.  Some can't be legally used at all. 

I can't legally use a 41 Swiss rifle for deer in PA, even though it is larger and as powerful as a 30-30. Why, because it is rim fire.  No rim fires allowed for big game.  Do you hear me scream foul like the in line folks do about the flint long rifle season?  Do I try to convince game officials that a regular firearm is incapable of a humane kill, like Toby Bridge's is trying to do to flint lock long rifles?     

What is the purpose of the season?  to kill deer or promote a certain type of arm?  An inline doesn't belong just because it loads from the front.  I could load my 30-06 from the front, should that be legal in a front stuffer season? 

[sparsons]

When I started shooting muzzlleloaders last year I knew what a muzzleloader was supposed to be. I had never at that time heard of  the "inline". Ask my mother what a muzzleloader looks like and she and others her age will tell you. Show them a modern "inline" and she and others her age will have no idea what it is. I have no problem with inlines but just because it loads from the muzzle a muzzleloader it doesn't have to  be.  I think everyone if they were honest know exactly what the intent of the law in the various states meant when they referred to a muzzleloading season. Some states are thinking about outlawing the inline because of the debate over just what is the inline. Some states I have read upon are going back to the intent of the law thus the inline is becoming a "white elephant".  Not a true muzzleloader as intended under the law and not the high powered rifile they claim by some to be.  I think the rule of the thumb should be what do think the pioneers carried--we all know what we think of when we think about the history of our country. If we continue to try to skate the law with rifles that we all know are not the intent of the law we all lose. We may lose traditional muzzleloading as well.  Put a jet engine in your family car and try to pass it off as passenger car under the law. Once the authorities stop laughing at you you will  have box full of tickets.

[jlbeebe]

jlbeebe, not bashing in-lines as firearms.  Here in PA there is a state historical  reason for the special season.  Do in-line affectionados cry foul because they can't use in-lines in archery season?  Of course not, because in-lines are not bows and arrows.  Nor are they flint lock long rifles.  Why should they claim some special right to be permitted in a season to promote hunting with a PA long rifle?  I have hunted and will continue to hunt with a muzzleloader, whether they have a special season or not.  Heck in Pa they recently considered legalizing Atlatls for deer.  after that it will be long spears and then Zulu short spears, maybe bolos, clubs and throwing knives.   Perhaps the nun-chucks folks will scream foul.   Not everyone gets to use their favorite hunting arm in seasons for the other arms.  Some can't be legally used at all. 

I can't legally use a 41 Swiss rifle for deer in PA, even though it is larger and as powerful as a 30-30. Why, because it is rim fire.  No rim fires allowed for big game.  Do you hear me scream foul like the in line folks do about the flint long rifle season?  Do I try to convince game officials that a regular firearm is incapable of a humane kill, like Toby Bridge's is trying to do to flint lock long rifles?     

What is the purpose of the season?  to kill deer or promote a certain type of arm?  An inline doesn't belong just because it loads from the front.  I could load my 30-06 from the front, should that be legal in a front stuffer season? 

I would be curious to know how you would load a 30-06 from the muzzle as I have never seen this done. If your long rifle season is stated as a "long rifle" season then I really would not care. If it is just stated as a muzzleloading season then I would say there is no basis to make inlines illegal.

[Ramrod]

There are various conversion kits available that use centerfire pistol cartridges as a primer for inlines. These are legal in most states. It's also not hard to load an empty, primed .30-06 case into a modern rifle, throw a charge of smokeless powder down the spout, and follow with a bullet. Look Ma. I gots me a 3000 fps muzzleloader.

[jlbeebe]

There are various conversion kits available that use centerfire pistol cartridges as a primer for inlines. These are legal in most states. It's also not hard to load an empty, primed .30-06 case into a modern rifle, throw a charge of smokeless powder down the spout, and follow with a bullet. Look Ma. I gots me a 3000 fps muzzleloader.

Have you honestly ever tried to push a bullet down the barrel of a 30-06? I don't believe it could be done with a ramrod. I also can't see anything wrong with using one of these conversion kits.

[longcaribiner]

jlbeebe, a hundred years ago, the absolute top gunsmith/shooter in the country was a character named Harry Pope.  He made centerfire muzzleloading cartridge rifles that were loaded with black powder and later with smokeless.  His favorite cartridge was the 33-40, a variant of the 32-40.  He made a few 25 caliber rifles of this type.    A primed centerfire case full of powder was put in the breech and then a bullet was pressed into the muzzle and run down the barrel with a ram rod.   Today anything made by Harry Pope is worth a fortune.   He and his cronies were such gun cranks, that they built an "indoor" 100 yard range so they could shoot and avoid wind deflection.  They could shoot 10 shot 1 inch groups all day.  They tried for half inch groups and sometimes got them.   

[jlbeebe]

jlbeebe, a hundred years ago, the absolute top gunsmith/shooter in the country was a character named Harry Pope.  He made centerfire muzzleloading cartridge rifles that were loaded with black powder and later with smokeless.  His favorite cartridge was the 33-40, a variant of the 32-40.  He made a few 25 caliber rifles of this type.    A primed centerfire case full of powder was put in the breech and then a bullet was pressed into the muzzle and run down the barrel with a ram rod.   Today anything made by Harry Pope is worth a fortune.   He and his cronies were such gun cranks, that they built an "indoor" 100 yard range so they could shoot and avoid wind deflection.  They could shoot 10 shot 1 inch groups all day.  They tried for half inch groups and sometimes got them.   

I believe you but bullets he was were probably(I'm guessing) sized to fit less tightly than our modern jacketed bullets fit in the bores of the rifles we use today, never mind the fact that I have to use a mechanical press to push the bullets into the cases I reload for my .270

[jlbeebe]

jlbeebe, a hundred years ago, the absolute top gunsmith/shooter in the country was a character named Harry Pope.  He made centerfire muzzleloading cartridge rifles that were loaded with black powder and later with smokeless.  His favorite cartridge was the 33-40, a variant of the 32-40.  He made a few 25 caliber rifles of this type.    A primed centerfire case full of powder was put in the breech and then a bullet was pressed into the muzzle and run down the barrel with a ram rod.   Today anything made by Harry Pope is worth a fortune.   He and his cronies were such gun cranks, that they built an "indoor" 100 yard range so they could shoot and avoid wind deflection.  They could shoot 10 shot 1 inch groups all day.  They tried for half inch groups and sometimes got them.   

This is very interesting. I am always interested in old style rifles and how some of them could shoot with the same accuracy as the ones we use today. The tooling they used back then must have looked like fossils compared to what we use in our modern machine shops. My dad has a very long barreled .36 that has a tiger striped stock. We took it to a gunsmith who specializes in blackpowder guns and he said it started out as a flinter and was converted to ball and cap around the time of the civil war. We used to shoot it but it would hangfire quite often. My dad finally decided it was better off just sitting in our gun cabinet. I wish that old rifle could talk, it has two notches carved in the brass buttplate.