Author Topic: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy  (Read 11342 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« on: October 16, 2006, 05:11:19 AM »
It is my belief that on September 11, 2001 one of the largest government cover-ups took place in America. After having read the Official 911 report and the FEMA report and now the NIST report I am left with more questions than I had before reading them. Before I read them I simply wondered what had happen and why did 3 steel skyscrapers collapse due to fire for the first time ever. After reading them I now wonder the same thing but I also wonder why several people are not in jail and why our government is covering it up.

If you have not read these reports I recommend you do so for yourself. If you have I am sure you are like me and wondering what. It is now my belief that the official story is what I would have expected to hear from conspiracy nuts. To think that a fire that is known to have only reached temperatures of around 1200degrees Fahrenheit could have melted steel beams some of which was 4 inches thick and then turned this into a pool of molten iron that stayed in this molten form for weeks. How is it even possible when steel does not melt until temps of over 2700 degrees? The FEMA report even states that the current hypothesis only has a every low probability. But yet they refuse to investigate any other hypothesis and have closed the investigation.

 Folks I am not going to go into a lot of details in this post saying what I think happen as I have found that when I do I am called every name in the book and told how unpatriotic I am or how paranoid and even crazy I must be. I can only say that from an educated prospective very little of the 3 official reports have any merit.

I have also now spent hundreds of hours investigating this on my own and in the course have found many good videos of the collapse of all 3 buildings along with interviews of eye witnesses. Now I am not going to say that I agree with everything the so called conspiracy nuts are saying but there is much more merit and evidence to point to a cover up than there is for the official story.

I would invite you to watch the videos I have linked here and see for yourself. Some of these videos are long and if you watch all of them it may take a day or two. But they are all worth watching. Now I am not trying to argue or really even debate the theory or theories but will with anyone who has read the reports and watched the videos I post. If you feel that watching these videos it a waste of your time and therefore don’t want to watch them, that is fine but DO NOT reply to this post as you are a waste of my time.

I will only debate with educated, informed and intelligent people. I will not enter into a name calling flame war and I will ban your ass from GBO if you try to start one. You have been warned and will not be warned again. I am currently setting up several websites dedicated to this topic and the events that led up to 911 and the events after 911 in which anyone will be welcome to speak their peace and debate the topic till the end of time or we find out the truth.

If you watch the videos and read the reports and yet still think that me and 42% of America is wrong then you better be ready to explain many questions with scientific fact and evidence. All 3 official reports dare not say what caused the collapses with any degree of certainty so do not try and use them as your evidence.

Folks call me paranoid if you like but facts are facts and we are not being told truth.

Video – 911 mysteries: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003&q=911&hl=en

Video – 911 eyewitness: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603&q=911&hl=en

Video – The Truth & Lies about 911: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8797525979024486145&q=911&hl=en

Official 911 commission report: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html

Official NIST report: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc_briefing_april0505.htm

FEMA report: http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/official/fema.html 

Take a look, read and watch for yourself then decide which side you want to stand on the issue.

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Online Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4694
  • Gender: Male
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2006, 11:26:14 AM »
TM7, I say this in all sincerity.  You have mentioned this government's "coincidental theory" several times.  I am ignorant of this theory and was wondering if you could point me to an official site that lays out that theory.  I am honestly interested in reading it.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Online Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4694
  • Gender: Male
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2006, 03:29:58 PM »
OK, TM7 could you lay out some of these "coincidences" for me as I do not follow any of the conspiracy sites.  I would however like to know what you and the conspiracists are referring to.  At least then I could possibly offer some arguments as to the coincidences.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2006, 06:19:38 PM »
If you will have a look at the videos I have posted and read some of the reports you will see what it is I am referring to.

As TM7 said there are levels to the conspiracy. But there are several varying theories on what happen and why. I will give you a few of the things that the government have said that must be looked at and questioned for what reason they said them.

1)   The government says in the 911 Commission report that the towers where hollowed out tubes that allowed the fire to spread quickly floor to floor. It also states that there was not a 47 column 4” thick steel beam core.

In fact the towers were each 3 separate skyscrapers staked on top of each other and each had a 47 column core that was the main support for the structure but also there was 240 columns that made up the outside of the building. It was referred to as a window screen type construction on the outside of the tower by one of the architects who designed it. And just as a pencil in the window screen does very little to the overall structure of the screen. The planes would not have caused enough damage to bring the building down. This same architect stated that the building could have sustained several crashes in each building. This is because the buildings were designed explicitly to sustain a fully loaded 707 crashing into them.

Another fact about the towers is that the amount of movement in the south tower when it was hit was no more than what the buildings move in high winds. So we have already caught the government in a lie and can reasonable be sure that structurally the building was able to take the crash and force of the impact.

2)   The Official report states that fire though was not hot enough to melt the steel because it was sporadic and this in theory was what cause the buildings to collapse. The theory says that because the fire was spread out it cause an uneven heating of the beams which caused them to sag and “pull away” from the inner and outer cores. And this caused one floor after another to collapse bringing down the structure.

Now if you ask average person who buys the governments version about the collapse they will refer to it as a pancake collapse. In fact the report states it was not a pancake collapse. Also here they acknowledge an inner core but later deny its existence. But one of the things that should raise the most questions is the fact that the reports state that the current hypothesis has a low probability. But yet they close the case and call it final. what in the world... how is that final if you say your theory is not the most likely chain of events.

Also let’s mention that only 200 pieces of the debris was saved for closer investigation. Also did you know that the debris was for the most part all in 30’ sections? This made clean up much faster and easier to ship the debris to Asia as it was very quickly during clean up. Also lets remember that the Official commission says that the steel weakened and sagged but yet in the data that UL presented for the NIST report stated that the steel passed a test were it was unprotected (no fire proofing) and exposed to temperatures of 2k degrees for 6 hours and showed no sign of weakening. So now here we have UL and NIST saying that the steel could have withstood the mere 1200 degree temp that is known to have been present, but yet the 911 Commission bases its low probability hypothesis solely on it not being able to withstand the temp.

And lets not over look that also UL states based on evidence from the steel studied around the crash location it was only exposed to temps near 500 degrees. This was based on the paint on the steel and tests to see at what temps exposed and protect it burns. But in spite of the relatively small amount of fire and temps of only 1200 degrees max we have molten steel at the base of all three builds for weeks after. And let’s not forget that almost 50% of Americans do not even know that there were three buildings that fell and it takes 2700 plus degree temps to melt steel.

Ok now let’s look at another level of the conspiracy. The last was the level stating that the buildings did not fall due to fire. Here we have one of the “who did it” conspiracies. Now Larry Silverstein acquired a 99 year lease on the WTC complex in I think it was May of 01. In his lease he negotiated the right to rebuild in the event of a disaster. Throughout the summer of 01 Silverstein reworked the insurance policies on the complex to ensure it was covered for terrorist attacks for the sum of 3.5 billion dollars. Just a few weeks after he acquired the property strange construction begin. Also let’s note that the company who provided security to the WTC complex was Securecom which was chaired by GW Bush’s cousin. And also from 1996 to 2000 by GW’s little brother Marvin. Now let’s skip ahead to just a few weeks prior to 911 when more strange construction began and many evacuations were conducted. The weekend before 911 the WTC saw a complete power down which was unprecedented at the time. Also thousands of rolls of cable were being brought in said to have been internet cable. Not to mention the fact 5 days before 911 the threat level was lowered and bomb sniffing dogs removed.

Now let’s look at WTC7. This building housed headquarters for: CIA, FBI, IRS, SEC to name a few along with many others to include banks and large insurance companies. Also Lets look at what went away in WTC7 on 911. All records and files on the WorldCom and Enron investigations. And the 60 billion dollar California Power scandal. Not forgoing the fact that the WTC complex was seeing lower rental of the offices and the fact that it was under order to clean up all the asbestos from the complex estimated at a cost of $1 billion. Which no insurance company would cover.

Now lets look back at Silverstein, In an interview that he gave PBS he states that he got a call from the fire chief stating that “they did not know if they could control the fire in building 7” so he told them “due to the great loss of life maybe we should just pull it; so they made the decision to pull it and they watched the building fall.” Now “pull” is a term used by demolition experts to refer to a controlled demolition. This very term is also on video being used by one of the clean up engineers when he tells someone he his talking to “they are getting ready to pull number 6” Silverstein later said he was referring to pulling the fire fighters but yet FEMA and the NYFD both say that all firefighters were ordered out of the building at 11:30am on 911 so at 5:20pm there was not any firefighters in Building 7. And thus with these facts we can see how the “how” conspiracy level comes about which is said to have been a controlled demolition which I happen to agree with. Oh and don’t forget that Silverstein sued his insurance company claiming that the double high jacking represented 2 acts of terror and therefore was awarded 7 billion dollars as a result, nice return on the 15 million he invested don’t you think.

There is so much more to this and you should really watch the videos and read the reports if you truly are sincere about wanting to know. The only way you will ever know is to investigate it for yourself as I have. Prior to me getting curious and doing my own investigating I thought all of the 911 controversy was a load of BS but now I know the only BS is what we are being told by the government.

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2006, 03:40:59 AM »
But you know the one thing that I did not point out that to me is the most disturbing part of the whole thing and that is the value that the current administration places on American life.

Here we have a disaster of unprecedented magnitude that killed more than 3k US citizens and yet our government is satisfied with accepting a theory that by its own conspirator’s admission is not really probable. Where are the answers for the families that lost love ones on that day? Families ripped apart and yet the government pushes it under a rug and blows it off. And the media plays right along doing all it can to silence those who try to have a voice. And yet more than 50% of America seems to care less. what in the world... 

People it could have very easily been your town according to the government and yet you don’t want answers and don’t questions irregularities rather shun and flame those who point them out to you...

Well I plan to scream at the top of my lungs until I get truthful answers to my questions.

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2006, 03:42:02 AM »
TM7 you watch the Bush speach? What kind does it take to stand there and lie like that?

 You know he like to reference 911 but yet not really talk about it... funny how that works...

And to say he signed that bill on behalf of those who died on 911...  :o :'( >:(

Matt

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Online Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4694
  • Gender: Male
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2006, 05:28:30 AM »
Sorry fellas, but I simply don't have the time or inclination to spend days and days reviewing every crackpot conspiracy website and video out there (did you know that Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy and Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln).  If you take things out of context, list them in a sinister fashion and describe them in argumentative terms (i.e. "strange construction") you can make Christmas look like a conspiracy.  I for one do not see the Dem's or the media giving Bush a pass on this, if it were true.  As much as they despise him, if there were a shred of truth to this conspiracy theory, they would be all over him.  Well of course, unless they fear it would destroy their characature of Bush as a bumbling idiot.  My god, if this were true, they would have to admit that Bush makes Goldfinger and Dr. No look like kindergarten students.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2006, 05:43:12 AM »
Sorry fellas, but I simply don't have the time or inclination to spend days and days reviewing every crackpot conspiracy website and video out there (did you know that Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy and Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln).  If you take things out of context, list them in a sinister fashion and describe them in argumentative terms (i.e. "strange construction") you can make Christmas look like a conspiracy.  I for one do not see the Dem's or the media giving Bush a pass on this, if it were true.  As much as they despise him, if there were a shred of truth to this conspiracy theory, they would be all over him.  Well of course, unless they fear it would destroy their characature of Bush as a bumbling idiot.  My god, if this were true, they would have to admit that Bush makes Goldfinger and Dr. No look like kindergarten students.

Ok then from that post I do not expect to see you add any other comments to this thread period. If you have no desire to learn the truth then you have business participating in this thread. By your own admission you must be here only to cause trouble and this is not acceptable so... Have a nice day and enjoy the many other GBO forums that you do have a desire for...

Quote
OK, TM7 could you lay out some of these "coincidences" for me as I do not follow any of the conspiracy sites.  I would however like to know what you and the conspiracists are referring to.  At least then I could possibly offer some arguments as to the coincidences.

Was this post simply an attempt at a bait and hook...hmmm yeah run along and leave this to us conspiracy nuts ok... thanks...
Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Online Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4694
  • Gender: Male
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2006, 06:17:11 AM »
Quote
OK, TM7 could you lay out some of these "coincidences" for me as I do not follow any of the conspiracy sites.  I would however like to know what you and the conspiracists are referring to.  At least then I could possibly offer some arguments as to the coincidences.

Was this post simply an attempt at a bait and hook...hmmm yeah run along and leave this to us conspiracy nuts ok... thanks...
Matt

No, I in all sincerity was asking for a list of some sort regarding the "coincidences" so that I could consider them without having to spend an inordinate amount of time reviewing the conspiracy websites.  Additionally, I am always interested in discovering the "truth" about things, but if I am going to invest alot of time in something, I need something concrete to convince me it is worthwhile.  By the way, I did read the official NIST report you listed above, and did not see anything there that would make me want to go to the video sites.  Again, I just wonder if the truth is so apparent, why is Bush getting a pass from the media, when he is so hated by them?  This last item is not rhetorical, I really would like an answer, and I would hope that I will not be banned or vilified for attempting to discuss this in a civil manner, even though I have not visited all the conspiracy sites.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2006, 06:34:58 AM »
Casull first to your argument about having to visit "all the sites" you simple need to visit 3 to get a good understanding of our claims. And these are already posted for you. You say you want the truth in one breath and then in another say you dont want to have to look for it. Well guy I am here to tell you in the real world the truth is not given it is found. You ask about the media and them letting him get away with it but yet in the video you can see for your self they in fact help him get away with it. Not made up... plain as day on CNN and MSNBC and FOX. But you consider it a waste of your time to do your own due diligence? hmm I take it you do not invest in the stock market. If you want the answers you have to make the effort to find them. If you want to live in a world that is made up for you all you need to do is glue yourself to the news.

You said you read the NIST report then you should see the problems:

NIST's Theory
Remaining strictly within the confines of the officially prescribed theory, NIST crafts an explanation for the "initiation of the collapse of each Tower" that avoids faulting the Towers' construction: The aircraft impacts dislodged insulation from the steel, and the exposed steel succumbed to the fires. Sagging trusses pulled in portions of the perimeter walls, causing a rapid spread of "column instability" in perimeter columns, which in turned strained the fire-weakened core columns. The "tremendous energy" of the floors above the collapse zone led to "global collapse."

Challenges
In this critique I challenge NIST's explanation on two levels:

Its theory about the effects of crash and fire damage is deeply flawed.
Its presumption that "collapse initiation" will automatically lead to "global collapse" is unfounded.

Whereas the Report attempts to pre-empt challenges of the first type with the voluminous detail of its observations and models, it does not even address challenges of the second type. Yet it must have been aware of such challenges. NIST's lead investigator Shyam Sunder is extensively quoted in the Popular Mechanics article attacking "conspiracy theories." Respected theologian David Ray Griffin detailed evidence of controlled demolition in an April 18, 2005 address to the University of Wisconsin at Madison, which was aired twice on C-SPAN2's BookTV. Griffin's remarks included:
The buildings collapsed straight down, and at virtually free-fall speed, as in controlled demolitions, and then the rubble smoldered for months.
Many people in the buildings said that they heard or felt explosions.
Virtually all the concrete of these enormous structures was pulverized into very fine dust.
Much of this dust, along with pieces of steel and aluminum, was blown out horizontally several hundred feet.
Most of the steel beams and columns came down in sections about 30 feet long, conveniently ready to be loaded on trucks.

By truncating its investigation at "collapse initiation" NIST avoids having to consider and disclose the subsequent evidence of controlled demolition


So do you really want to know the truth or are you just fooling yourself?
and btw debate if you want but have questions and answers as that is a debate.

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2006, 07:09:55 AM »
Have a look at these pictures

impact to south tower










Now look at the progression of the explosions it is very clear that there are 2 separate explosions taking place here. One the fuel from the plane which is a large fireball and two and much smaller controlled explosion a few floors down from the first which happens to be the upper sky lobby. Right there in just 5 photos you can see that in fact there is a very good chance that there were explosives in the wtc south tower. And therefore should be given serious examination and the theory of such accepted as valid or at least the same low probability consideration that the fire theory got. But it has not and has been ignored all together.

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2006, 01:18:41 PM »
very well said TM7....

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Online Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4694
  • Gender: Male
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2006, 04:44:19 PM »
TM7, let me see now.  I believe you have chastised others for questioning the patriotism of certain individuals or groups who have seen fit to badmouth our commander in chief both here and abroad, as well as refer to certain of our soldiers as murderers and thugs, without waiting for an investigation, let alone a trial, all this during a time of war.  However, you question my patriotism for not spending my days looking at conspiracy web sites and videos.  I don't take these matters lightly, but I just haven't seen anything in your arguments that can't be explained by any number of other possible explanations.  For example, you state
Quote
....the statisical probabilty of these three steel frame bldgs collapsing catastrophically in one day is nil
 Well I imagine that prior to 9/11, the statistical probability of two commercial airliners striking both towers in the same day was nil (since it had never happened before).  Next,
Quote
....the supreme commander of NORAD stepped out that day and handed command over to a junior officer
 Without knowing how often this normally occurs, the fact that it happened that day is meaningless (maybe it occurs frequently).  Further,
Quote
....the short selling of stock the day before..this is traceble btw
 Stocks are sold short every day the markets are open (this is normal business).  Next,
Quote
....the fact that the 'airplane' hitting the pentagon was lined up with the executive offices but the crack arab pilot did a 270 degree [the gov says 330 degree!] barrel roll to swoop down on the recently fortified pentagon section which is said to be adjacent to the auditing offices.
 I have read you argue on other threads that a commercial aircraft would have a very hard time flying that close to the ground (ground effect or some such).  Maybe the "crack arab pilot" did not purposely execute the barrel roll in order to "swoop down on the recently fortified pentagon section", but rather encountered this ground effect and lost control, thus missing his intended target.  I'm not saying this happened, but its just as plausible.  I could sit here, and without too much imagination come up with counter points to pretty much all of the "coincidences" I have seen listed.  However, I am not going to do so and then proclaim my theories to be the "Truth".  I do tend to operate under the old adage that the simplist explanation is usually the correct one.  In the interest of peace and harmony, I will, while you and Matt pat each other on the back, look at one of the videos and if I see anything that convinces me that it is more likely than not true (and not just someone's conjectures or theories) I will delve further.  I hope that this action will return me to my status as a true patriot.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Online Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4694
  • Gender: Male
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2006, 08:35:58 PM »
Whoa there, TM7.  I, in no way accused you of referring to our military in a bad light. 
Quote
But where have I chastised or referred to our military in the bad light you mentioned.?
Please re-read my post.  What I said was that you have chastised others for questioning the patriotism of those who have cast our military in a bad light, such as John Murtha, John Kerry, Dick Durbin, etc.  I wrote my piece without any personal attack on you or the name calling that you feel obliged to engage in (such as referring to me as the "last useless obfuscator" or someone with an "egocentric view of the world").  Trust me, I do not believe that the world revolves around me.  I believe that you did in fact question my patriotism, when you said
Quote
Casull,,, I listed enough coincidences that any patriot would take up his duty to investigate further rather than glibbly saying I don't have the time so forget about
  I don't think it takes a very big jump to come to the conclusion that I did.  What bothers me the most is that I went to some length to clearly and amicably indicate why I have not lapped up the coincidences and various conspiracy theories, and even indicated that I would take the time to review one of the videos, but you misread one sentence in my post and go on a personal attack.  I don't believe I took the examples out of context when I simply point out that either they are quite common occurences or that without putting them into context they may be meaningless.  I was simply asking questions and providing counter points, as Matt suggested. 
Quote
btw debate if you want but have questions and answers as that is a debate
  As for spoonfeeding me the information, you seem to want to convince me that your theories are the Truth.  Is it to much to ask for some specifics, rather than simply being told to watch these videos and read these reports (btw, at least one of those reports is nearly six hundred pages long and the videos appear to be about an hour and a half).  And no I don't believe the media, I am one of its biggest critics.  However, knowing the media's disdain for Bush, I find it completely unbelievable that they would ignore all this "evidence" that is so clear on its face that 58% of the populace can see its "Truth".  And what about the Dem's.  With their paid staffs, interns and others, wouldn't it seem much more believable that they would know these things and be shouting them from the rooftops, especially if the proof is so blatant.  They would like nothing better than to impeach Bush.  I imagine that would be easier done than said if they could show that he was involved in the murder of over three thousand US citizens.  And how does an administration lead by an idiot cover up something this big for over five years.  There must have been hundreds, if not thousands, of people involved to pull this off, yet no has come forward with the smoking gun.  It's questions like these that make me doubt the conspiracy theories.  I guess that just makes me stubborn and prejudiced, to use your words.  Again, please re-read my prior post, particularly the sentence that caused you to spew so much anger my way.  I wrote that post in the most conciliatory manner that I could, given our differences of opinion.  Oops, sorry my points are opinion, yours are the Truth.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline ed1921

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 124
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2006, 01:57:26 PM »
Matt,
Your photos show absolutely nothing of what you are trying to say they show.
Do you mean to say the the highjackers flew the planes into the buildings exactly where demolition charges were placed? Rediculous.
Steel loses much of its strength way before it melts. With the physical damage to the fire proofing it's entirely likely steel would have been exposed directly to flames caused by thousands of gallons of jet fuel & the buildings contents.
I realise this was mentioned, but ignored by you.
As I recall the buildings didn't collapse immediately.
There is no evidense of controlled demolition except in some peoples imagination.
Does anybody really think a conspiracy of this magnitude could be kept secret or be coordinated such as it was?
We're talking about the government. A real model of efficiency.
Does anybody think that this country & it's leaders as well as the the "operatives" are so morally bankrupt that something like this would be allowed or be able to happen?
I know Roosevelt allowed the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor to get us into the war.
The moon landing was of course faked.
Sometimes bad things happen when instigated by bad people.The may have been mistakes & screw ups, but that doesn't mean conspiracy.
One of the more assinine theories to date.

Offline jimster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2237
  • Gender: Male
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2006, 05:02:04 PM »
I have some questions regarding this theory of conspiracy where our government blew us up.

Which part of our government did this? White House staff? Some secret group of people in the CIA, FBI, or what?
How come this is not on all the major news stations of the world? Why is not the opposition party who is trying to make this administration look real bad, showing these pics on the news when it would benifit them greatly?
Other countries that hate our guts are not even bring this to light....that's odd isn't it?
All those jornalists out there that would love to break this story that is so clear...where are they? This is their big chance, is it not?
How large is this group of people that planed this? Or is it a small group within our government that is really good at keeping secrets? That's hard to believe, since Congress has a history of not being able to keep their mouths shut. Maybe nobody in Congress knows about it. Must be a real secret group huh?
Well, all of the news media, journalists, and even FOX news is really missing out on all this info.

I'm not saying our governmant has not hid things from us before, they have, they always will....
But this seems to be a stretch...at least until I could get some answers to some of the simple questions above.





Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2006, 11:29:51 PM »
Quote
Your photos show absolutely nothing of what you are trying to say they show.
Do you mean to say the the highjackers flew the planes into the buildings exactly where demolition charges were placed? Rediculous.
Steel loses much of its strength way before it melts. With the physical damage to the fire proofing it's entirely likely steel would have been exposed directly to flames caused by thousands of gallons of jet fuel & the buildings contents.
I realise this was mentioned, but ignored by you.

First the photos show exactly what I am saying. There are 2 separate from what we can see; unrelated explosions going on here.
Now I am used to people looking at me like I am crazy some times and telling me I am paranoid. I know I am paranoid but it is because what I can see and use logic and reasoning to understand the “who and why”. I guess I am just blessed to have the gift of logical reasoning and common sense and use this with my general knowledge of how things work and don’t work which gives me a different outlook, view and opinion on many things.

For example there is without a doubt 2 separate explosions in the photos. The plane hit the tower between the 81st and 85th floors this caused many windows on the adjacent side of the tower to blow out sending flames rolling out. Yet we have an explosion also blowing out a window or windows in the sky lobby on the 78th floor.

Question How?
So we look at this and we wonder how that could happen. Well it is possible that the explosion of the plane could have caused this, but there should be flames and it should change in physical size and share the same characteristics as what we see from the rest of the explosion. This is if there is only one explosion. But seeing as how we do not see this rather see the opposite one with reasonable common sense will look at the probability of a secondary explosion. Which right there at that very moment when you see that there is the possibility that there could have been a secondary explosion you have to start considering many other things.

Also as to the comment “Do you mean to say the the highjackers flew the planes into the buildings exactly where demolition charges were placed? Rediculous.”
 No what is ridiculous is that you are so ignorant to electricity, electronics and the other things that make up the world you live in. To have a controlled demolition you have to have wires running to explosives that can have an electrical charge put to them at the moment one wishes to explode the device. So it is very reasonable and even probable… even more… likely that upon impact many wires were broken and damaged which would have most likely shorted across steel from the structure creating a high voltage arc and or short to dissipate into any wire that was exposed and touching the steel or other conductor. If any of these wires happen to be connected to an explosive charge it is most logical that it would have caused the device to explode seeing how most use 9 to 12 volts to detonate. Now from other footage we can see even more explosions happening as many as 25 floors below the collapse. So from this it is logical that there was a great many devices planted in the building and even more so when you factor that controlled demolitions require many devices and many wires.

So we look at 2 possibilities here and using logic and common sense and knowledge we get this.

A) Small secondary explosion in these photos caused by plane and fuel: not plausible due to the visible characteristics of the explosions and how the differ greatly

b) Small secondary explosions caused by explosive device. Plausible due to visible characteristics of the explosion as it seemed to propel dust as opposed to flame. Possible due to the fact that if there was a secondary device such as those used in a controlled demolition present the possibility for premature detonation is high.

Now as to whom, well I don’t like to point fingers at any one person because I have absolutely nothing that could put one person as responsible. So the most logical thing would be do as most any other investigator would do and look for motive, who gains the most. Also if you think that the sides are so against each other you have the hook in your mouth and should tug real hard to rip it out… It will hurt but it will heal and you learn… unlike most fish who take the bait…

The Media was asked about. Well in fact there have been thousands of voices trying to get the Medias attention but due to the lack of credentials they are mocked and shunned. Even the ones who have the credentials and get on air are quickly told oops were out of time when certain issues are brought up and always with condescending comments from the hosts afterwards… See this is a perfect example of someone speaking based on emotion rather than facts and understanding. If it is such a big hoax and waste of time then get out there look at what we are saying debunk our evidence and show facts to oppose it and I will shut up. But until then I am going to scream as loud as I can “Cover Up”…

As to this comment:
Steel loses much of its strength way before it melts. With the physical damage to the fire proofing it's entirely likely steel would have been exposed directly to flames caused by thousands of gallons of jet fuel & the buildings contents.

Part of this is true; steel does lose strength before it melts. But what is also true is that the document temperatures are at between 1200 and 1300 degrees. UL which is Underwriter Laboratories who certifies most everything in construction tested sections of steel from the towers for strength and unprotected it lasted 6 hours at 2000 degrees with no sign of weakening. Also based on the amount of burning of the paint from the steel in the area thought to be the impact point the average temperatures are said to be around 500 to 600 degrees. This based on UL tests. Now as to the fire proofing… Do you really think that sprayed on asbestos just fell off? Have you ever seen this stuff? This stuff does not just fall off and in spite of what you might think was not as old as the buildings for it was added years later. Also if it would come off that easy then office doors being slammed would cause it to dislodge and become airborne which would be a huge health risk to the millions of people in NY. Now do you believe that your government would allow that to happen? Because that would be a huge cover up there and god only knows the lawsuits… Or rather; it does not dislodge very easy and there for is the reason that the port authority was given waiver after waiver regarding getting it cleaned up but was told at some point it has to be dealt with.

Also note the FEMA and the Official report say that the fuel was all burnt within roughly the first 10 minutes. And the contents were standard as per fire code. These items would not have burned at high temps nor would they have created enough heat to weaken the steel… this is the reason for fire codes after all…

Again logic with a little common sense exposes things for what they really are. But most people do not want to know… they want people to tell them…

“There is no evidense of controlled demolition except in some peoples imagination.”
Why on earth would one make such an accusation with everything pointing to the opposite to include testimony of most everyone on the scene that day who survived and every single piece of video and audio footage. Look you can not debate an issue without knowing the facts and or evidence that is presented by both sides… it is simply ludicrous. This is the reason in the first post I gave links to the video footage known to be the actual footage and the official and final reports. Take a look at both sides do the math and when 1+1 starts equaling BS then maybe you will see what I can see. But the most likely chain of events will be, people will continue to ridicule TM7 and myself and without even taking the time to see if there is any validity or even a possibility to what we are saying being possible. They will continue to live life as it is moaning about this administration that they so passionately affirm to be so admirable.

People the logical truth to the evidence when look at objectively points to the possibility that in fact “big corporate” controls our government. It is so evident if you will just look around you and think. They also control the media or at least most of it. And as to the question about other countries knowing and saying something, well again if you would look you would find that several other countries have spoke up but was not publicized. One of these was a country that so many here hold near and dear to their heart, Israel, in fact they knew it was going to happen before it happen and told us but we did nothing… know what they did? They packed up all their people who was in the WTC and moved them to another state. Hmm they sound a bit paranoid too don’t they…

Ok here it is… plain and simple… from this point on.... please inform your self before opening your mouth... please...
Matt   
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2006, 12:30:54 AM »
Yeah you’re right I am not excluding anyone who wishes to discuss just those who only want to ridicule but they will post anyway they always do... I just like to tell them not to so when they step to far over the line it is not a shock when I say something to them.  I would love for someone to prove me wrong... I just don’t see it happening... and I also look at both sides I have as much information discounting my belief of 9/11 as I do explaining but the ones that try to disprove all seem to do so with insults and subject change and never address a single point rather evade it...

as to the info about the fire yes I have seen it and think I have a bookmark... know I do I will pull it. but all the info about it is stated in the first video near the begining.

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2006, 06:53:43 AM »
Have a listen to Larry Silverstein himself... this should be enough to reopen the investigation

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Online Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4694
  • Gender: Male
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2006, 10:48:35 AM »
I found this article quite interesting http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1 Sorry, not sure how to post links.  Seems pretty well documented, but I'm sure that Matt and TM7 will find plenty of fault to it (and probably rip into me for being stupid enough to even consider it ;)).
Aim small, miss small!!!

Online Casull

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4694
  • Gender: Male
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2006, 04:34:33 PM »
Quote
Needless to say there is plenty of rebutal to the infamous Pop Mec article
  Just as the Popular Mechanics article offered plenty of rebuttal to the conspiracy theories.
Quote
But what is interesting is how the top brass at PM was fired [a Hearst publication btw], and this guy Meigs [and 5 guys] was put in place and wrote/edited the pop science justifications for the official 9/11 version.
  Now, TM7 I would be willing to bet good money that virtually all of the conspiracy sights and theorists were created and/or brought in to attack the official 9/11 version.  Does that by itself make them questionable?
Quote
I have great questions about the official version and have found inconsistencies and misinformation
  Apparently those at Popular Mechanics found inconsistencies and misinformation with the conspiracy theories, but you choose to ignore their reasons.  I can only presume that this is because they run counter to your natural inclination to believe in conspiracies.  I have clearly indicated that I tend to believe that the simplist answer is usually (not always, but usually) the correct one.  If someone provides a "smoking gun" or some conspiracy theory that doesn't have other explanations that are as plausible, or usually much more plausible, in favor of the official version, then I would be willing to consider them.  However, I just haven't seen anything that impressive coming from the conspiracy theorists.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2006, 09:55:58 PM »
TM7 have you seen this video?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603

[gv=475,325]http://vp.video.google.com/videodownload?version=0&secureurl=ugAAABKeDL-V17JZ7Qq5NDxYIzjtdH5hHSlBRae61NSqzoFte-qRFdxLJuxd4zoUceOjwLX7-esaaVovcC-YpDG65e0l15ihSgeWQc9gyLuASS10bcZmVyipESSmcK6kY-AXd4fKqZ_bRgst0tEHV9fwiL30JCzv_lgKavDL77KNpwH8jRouWyjDEs69ea55Ibvm3ePieOGY-2_DGuHXJovCfdiY2YgAbMfPcs-BpdhgbMMK-h3UC5twk0gqHXtwiQbtxA&sigh=FSmwMiC9BharHSex9lcWHqUT9Jk&begin=0&len=6280380&docid=-3498980438587461603[/gv]
^-- Press the play button here to start the video...

Matt



<a href="http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/mp3player.swf" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/mp3player.swf</a>


Press Play to Start the Audio
Press pause to stop the Audio
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2006, 10:46:49 PM »
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2006, 09:08:02 PM »
check out this site TM7.

http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/

who owns what...

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2006, 03:50:47 PM »
and yet poeple wonder how a media cover up could happen...

Quote
Was the Jim Marrs/Honegger link interesting to you and plausible, 13 pages of reading?
yes it was already in my bookmarks...

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2006, 08:12:24 PM »
I have added a new feature to GBO... Now those who do not have the time to search the net looking for videos will be able to watch the video right from the GBO site and never have to leave...

Dont even have to click on the links we post... just click the play button for the video and sit back and watch... the one in the first post makes so many things clear in the first 5min... give it a look...

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2006, 09:34:31 PM »
Here is another informative video: Titled Loose Change

[gv=475,325]http://vp.video.google.com/videodownload?version=0&secureurl=wAAAAGGoAzYidThCDG9mwtcgzSdnCffANguLy_IuracBcWLxV9_L_b963zPq6RZ9LMnDzd3SvS2P-HAy8dI5rEHWZMPBb9OwsCCpo0sjiDlJGe85FmhkFoXYpT5OHOT_ZBMz-NiZOXZ0CvObHdHE9PJPigSqVc_YTQTaT9N4TEcffX_sVRbRaaGLb_7A7ZCb0vr2JByZxw88dOH_qqfTMZQMaMFv8TNHUtwYdOsE1anfmHxQ3bYuEFn3B-5ZIMxn0c83Tzt1vylz-TjSuMCBsq0xBo0&sigh=2sUExxmf112kPZHw234Msj6xLdw&begin=0&len=5362996&docid=7866929448192753501[/gv]

  ^_ Just press Play

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

  • .:{º.º}:.
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Male
    • Inkredible Image
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2006, 11:54:45 AM »
So how many people have took a second look at 911 after seeing this thread and the posts in it?

Has it opened anyones eyes to the possiblility?

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31293
  • Gender: Male
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2006, 03:54:10 PM »
  I do believe that very possibly, Oswald did not act alone and there may well have been a swarthy man involved in the OKC bombing..but the WT towers and the Pentagon, I just can't swallow.
    Just too many witnesses SAW those planes hit all three places and too many witnesses on the planes described the facts of the takeover by terrorists.
 
  Being a blacksmith, I can tell you steel does melt at 2700 deg F., however there is a heating up process. When steel reaches between 700 and 800 degrees, where the dull glowing red just starts, it is already severely weakened and I would estimate from experience will it support much less than half what it would at room temp.
   When steel reaches the 1200 to 1450 range it is extremely pliable and weak. At 1200 F, it is a very bright, glowing red. I can clamp a piece of 1/2" stock by the hot end and twirl the rod around in a coil with just one finger. By the time steel reaches 1450-1475 F..it is glowing tangerine and has become austinetic, where the molecules are racing in disorder so fast that a magnet is not at all interested in the steel. At this same temperature the steel flows under my hammer like child's modeling clay.
   No surprise the towers collapsed at a reported 1200 F, I would expect them to have collapsed at more like 750 F.

   Molten steel in "puddles" in the wreckage ? Don't know how accurate that is, but there is always the possibility that in that wreckage which burned very hot, there couild have been some type tunnel that worked like a forge blower and drew air in heating the pocket where steel may have been, to a melting point. Not extremely likely but indeed possible.
   With my coal forge and a clean fire it will burn quietly at appx 2500 F, when I start forcing air to it ..it quickly spikes to appx 3300F.
 
  I did read a report that during construction the I-beams were being coated with an asbestos material but at a certain point the enviro whackos found out and they put up such a hue and cry that the coating was abandoned about 2/3 of the way to the top.
  However, I can't and won't vouch for the reports accuracy...even though it sounds good..

   Now if the govt planned it all...how in the world did they just happen to set the bombs off at the same moment that the planes with their load of passengers and terrorist thugs hit the buildings ?

   Or are you trying to say that the terrorists on a suicide run were hired by the govt..Yikes!..how much would the govt have to pay to get 19 guys to take a one-way plane ride ?

   Ted Olsen, council to Pres Bush spoke with his wife Barbara, who was aboard the ill fated plane that hit the Pentagon. Was Barbara also a suicide bomber ? 

    She did however,do a credible job of describing the terrorists and their modus operandi, and she was a very credible investigative reporter in her own right .

   And the plane that went down in Pa., ...did the govt. "hired guns" give up on the job ?   
          It seems that by your estimation, when the govt agents failed with the Pa plane, the plotters in Washington could have just as easily blown up the building the 4th plane was supposedly headed for !

    It certainly seems that in order to believe such a conspiracy theory, one would have to overlook or suppress at least a million pertinent facts and cling to a small set of sketchy rumors and innuendos...or else be the kind of cynical person that suspects a plot when the neighbor says "good morning" !

   Sorry !  I may have been born at night...but it wasn't LAST night !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31293
  • Gender: Male
Re: 9-11 - Official Conspiracy
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2006, 01:22:16 PM »
 Tm;

   I can understand your sincerity, but still have a couple questions:
   
    Is it logical that our govt (if that is the culprit ion your view) would risk the entire financial stability and thus, our nations survival by destroying one of our financial nerve centers and 3000 people ?
   There are softer, less expensive targets to hit that would cause as much indignation among the citizenry, if that were their aim.

   E.g. the statue of liberty, Golden Gate bridge, any of the NY bridges , Mt Rushmore  and several other high sentimental targets...they could even have hit all of them.

 The conspiracy would have to include many thousands of compliant co-conspirators...not likely successful !
 
   Unlike Waco, where they did their best to make sure that any disagreeing witnesses were fully DEAD .

    I cannot of couirse, comment on the fuel oil heats generated, not my field..assume your figures valid.

   Then there's the thousands of witnesses, plus videos of the planes crashing into the buildings..?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)