Author Topic: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML (Read 3531 times)

roundball · « **on:** October 16, 2006, 03:28:45 PM »

Goex has now also withdrawn / denounced support of toby bridges due to his extreme views on traditional muzzleloading...

jh45gun · « **Reply #1 on:** October 16, 2006, 06:03:19 PM »

I wonder if this will get him to figure out his mouth really overloaded his butt this time.

roundball · « **Reply #2 on:** October 17, 2006, 05:59:04 AM »

Ramrod · « **Reply #3 on:** October 17, 2006, 12:38:13 PM »

It might come as a shock to some, but his views are not "extreme". Like it or not, he represents the majority of today's muzzleloading cheaters.

oops, I mean hunters.

dukkillr · « **Reply #4 on:** October 17, 2006, 12:52:37 PM »

Is this one of those situations where only responses affirming the moderator's beliefs are allowed? Not trying to offend, just not familiar with the rules of this particular section.

Slamfire · « **Reply #5 on:** October 17, 2006, 06:46:45 PM »

We've had two diametrically opposed opinions, and you still ask?

jh45gun · « **Reply #6 on:** October 17, 2006, 10:31:38 PM »

Quote from: Ramrod on October 17, 2006, 12:38:13 PM

It might come as a shock to some, but his views are not "extreme". Like it or not, he represents the majority of today's muzzleloading cheaters. oops, I mean hunters.

No I think most guys who use inlines do not care what the traditional guys use as long as they can use their inlines and scopes. On the other hand some traditional guys may feel threatened as if we keep going in the direction that Toby and Shockley advocate some states may sit back and take a look at the muzzle loader seasons. That may or may not happen, but I can see why there would be concern.To have Toby threaten he wants to outlaw roundballs is wrong just as I feel that some guys have to learn to live with the inlines too. We as shooters and hunters better learn to ban together instead of trying to divide us. Same with the bow hunters against the xbow hunters ect. I like the traditional guns but I do have a inline too. I enjoy shooting both. That said. No matter which gun we use we have to keep it some what primitive as the states gave us the seasons for to begin with. Even with a scope and using black powder or a substitute either gun as a rainbow trajectory and you have to learn how your gun shoots and for most close is the name of the game. To have these guys advocating using smokeless powder and shooting 200 plus yards to me is a threat that I can see the traditional guys worrying about what the states will do about that. I have always been against the Savage and any other muzzle loader that may shoot smokeless powder. At least if your shooting black or a substitute your still keeping it some what primitive but as soon as you switch to smokeless and use a primer and a copper bullet or a copper clad bullet in a sabot or belted and shoot out past 200 yards then what you have is a caseless centerfire essentially. I really can see where this could be a threat to the muzzle loading seasons as the states first envisioned them. Off the Soap Box LOL

Let me reafirm I use both styles of muzzle loaders and shoot balls and conicals. I do not think that inlines should be banned anymore than I do think that balls should be banned as Toby threatened. Balls kill well. What I am saying is that Comments by Toby and yea I think Shockley too hurt us a heck of a lot more then help us. Now I am not saying that a muzzle loader cannot kill at 200 yards sure it can. What I am saying is that I think the states envisioned muzzle loader seasons as primitive and with the way things are going it is getting away from that. I think inlines and scopes can still be used and it still can be considered primitive as long as we use black powder or a substitute and push the idea that these weapons for most shooters are a close range proposition. To push the envelope I think in the long run will hurt us if these guys keep trying to go to centerfire country.

simonkenton · « **Reply #7 on:** October 18, 2006, 12:58:23 AM »

Did Toby Bridges really say that round balls should be outlawed?

roundball · « **Reply #8 on:** October 18, 2006, 03:30:13 AM »

He said he's going to get the states to establish minimum energy levels at 100yds for muzzleloaders, as measured the way CF cartridges are measured, which in his own words would then ban round balls from being allowed...go read his whole web site.

longcaribiner · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2006, 06:49:43 AM »

Pa started a flint lock season after Christmas, for traditional long guns. minimum was 44 ball and 40 grains of powder. The season was to celebrate the PENNSYLVANIA LONG RIFLE. Not the stainless steel plastic sight laser guided space age machinations of gun cranks. I once belonged to a muzzleloader club where anything was accepted, so long as it loaded from the muzzle, even a gun that used a spark plug and electric switch for a trigger (guy ran a cord to his car battery for power) I saw home made in lines with thumb hole stocks and peep sights with metal flake green stocks. Basically what we called "space guns." We had some top notch shooters there and most of us were more traditional minded. I have an in-line made in the 1960's by a gun smith from Maryland, even has a false muzzle.

A modern in-line however, is nothing more than a modern cartridge gun that happens to load from the muzzle. Heck they use closed centerfire ignition. They are no diifferent than Harry Pope's 33-40 muzzleloading cartridge guns. He put the case and powder in the breech and pushed the bullet down the muzzle. the guns fire the same. To say that round balls are anemic and dangerous, well a Revolutionary war was fought and won with those guns. Folks successfully hunted with them for two hundred years on this continent before the cartridge guns came along. But look at Toby's agenda and who does stand to gain by his words. His buddy Knight and the other in line makers. Sell more "high performance" muzzleloaders. If you can use a scope so much the better and so many more sales for his few remaining friends. He is effectively trying to lobby the traditionalists out of the woods. Ther is a certain trend toward higher power ammo and guns for the lowly whitetail. 40 yrs ago, the standard in Pa, by which all other cartridges was measured, was the 30-30. Today there are actually a few folks who claim the 30.06 is not adequate for whitetails. This Popeye mentallity of hitting things harder than necessary is irrational. Of course you want sufficient killing power. Toby's rant about the round ball, is (1) certainly not speaking of Eastern woodland hunting where the average shot is 30 yd. (2) speaks only of energy, which is not the only measure of killing power. Any fool knows that the shock and blood loss to bring down an animal comes from the effect on the animals body. a needle launched at light speed will have incredible energy at 100 yds, but would drill right through and barely injure a deer. A 54 caliber ball can create much more shock to an animal at 400 ft lbs than a 25 caliber bullet. His comparison of speed of sound bullets to slow moving round balls is apples and oranges. It is irrational. The US gov't felt that a 450 grain bullet powered by 60 grains of powder was sufficient to kill men at long distances. That was continued in the loading for 45-70's A round ball weighing less, naturally moves faster with the same charge, and was also considered suitable to kill men. Mr. Bridges suddenly elevates himself above the US army's ballistics experts of the last 200 years.

1187VX2 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2006, 07:49:00 AM »

I love my Savage smokeless muzzleloader - more so for the ease of use than the flatter trajectory, but that is a nice bonus as well. I got into muzzleloading simply so I could hunt deer longer.

Most guys shooting the Savage are probably getting 2000 - 2300 fps - pretty much the same as those guys with the new T/Cs or Knights using 150 grains of the dirty smokeless powder (which is how 777 is classified).

Surely you guys have noticed that most manufacturers bring out the new model every year. And of course it has to be 'new & improved' because that sells. So advancements & evolution is only natural.

Look where shotguns used for deer hunting have advanced to. Rifled barrels, scopes & 300 grain slugs @ 2000 fps. And you don't hear any states saying let's ban this or that.

I really don't think the states care as long as we're killing close to the proper number of deer and accidents don't raise dramitically.

jh45gun · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2006, 08:50:45 AM »

The only thing I have to say about scopes is if you need one to hunt with to be able to hit what your shooting at I have no problems with that traditional or not traditional. To be honest I can not see a problem if they allowed a low fixed power scope on muzzle loaders to be legal as scopes were used on muzzle loaders as soon as they came out so it is nothing new. Just that our scopes these days are fancier and easier to use. I would be perfectly happy with a 2 x fixed powe over the 1 x that is required now as a 2 x is easier to find. Or a 4 x.
Either that or a good peep sight set up. To be honest traditional sights are all and good but to be fair to the game I hunt even at closer ranges I want to use a sight I know I can hit well with. I do not shoot open sights well at all anymore. Most all my guns wear peep sights or glass of some sort or a red dot. I do not really care if I am PC or not I want to hit what I shoot at the best way I can.

roundball · « **Reply #12 on:** October 18, 2006, 08:52:32 AM »

Quote from: 1187VX2 on October 18, 2006, 07:49:00 AM

"...Look where shotguns used for deer hunting have advanced to. Rifled barrels, scopes & 300 grain slugs @ 2000 fps. And you don't hear any states saying let's ban this or that..."

Actually some states are beginning to look at that verey thing sas their range increases...the same scrutiny will begin being applied to the modern "hi performance" muzzleloaders as they too are now equallying or surpassing some centerfire rifles, which of course are already banned in shotgun only zones...states have to overcome a lot of inertia when they start moving on something...this arena is starting to come into sharp focus.

And to be honest, I think the worst possible strategy a toby bridges or anybody in the modern inline community could have is one that throws around phrases like "High Performance Muzzleloaders", "long range", "centerfire type ballistics", etc, etc...all that's doing is getting the attention of people and getting them looking closer.

I predict restrictions will eventually come out limiting the high tech shotguns and high performance muzzleloaders one way or another in those shotgun only zones...and the bad news may be that it's an all out ban on both...therefore in what at least were shotgun only zones, there may be no firearms allowed at all, of any kind....

jh45gun · « **Reply #13 on:** October 18, 2006, 09:04:29 AM »

Same problem with Pistols I live in a rifle zone in Northern WI so I can use anything. I have heard that some of the shotgun areas that now allow pistol in different states are allowing single shots like my Encore in 308. I wonder about that as my 308 Encore Pistol shoots just as well and far as any rifle so they are kinda pushing the limit in a shot gun/pistol/muzzle loader zone. That may cause problems down the line too.

CallaoJoe · « **Reply #14 on:** October 18, 2006, 09:37:18 AM »

I luv shooting & hunting with all my different types of firearms. I'm new to this forum, but it always strikes me when we as sportsmen & women bicker over stuff like this. Same thing with the archery/crossbow/traditional stuff. There will never be a rule that makes everyone happy, so we'll just keep arguing over stuff like this. BTW... Outlawing roundballs is ridiculous. They're the projectile that shoots best outta my Hawken, and ain't no problem droppin a deer at 75 yds or so with it.

I hunt with .270 & 30-06 bolt action & Encore, T/C hawken ML, T/C Encore ML, Sharps 1874 BPCR, and a Mathews outback. Personally, in my state of MO, there are plenty of deer, so I really don't care what the guys across the road or county are shooting. As long as they stay off my property, and follow the letter of the law... Until deer populations are held in check, States are going to continue to open up the seasons to more opportunities....

I know this all makes for a lively debate, so I guess that's kind of fun. It just irks me when I go to the archery range, and I have a guy shooting a long bow tell me I'm not in the true spirit of the sport, blah blah blah, and yet he's shooting carbon arrows from his Black widow bow... I like shooting my Mathews, my inlines and my cap & ball rifles....

So, get out there, shoot what ya like(if legal), and good hunting.

simonkenton · « **Reply #15 on:** October 18, 2006, 09:46:06 AM »

"He said he's going to get the states to establish minimum energy levels at 100yds for muzzleloaders, as measured the way CF cartridges are measured, which in his own words would then ban round balls from being allowed.."

Toby Bridges KNOWS that this is a bunch of BS. He must just be saying this to promote inlines, as others have suggested. Bridges has killed game with the round ball. I have had a low opinion of him for several years, this just confirms it.
I started muzzleloading hunting in 1982 in Georgia. There was no muzzleloading season then. I bought a TC Hawken. I decided to shoot black powder and patched round ball, so that I could shoot the same load that my ancestors shot two hundred years ago.
When I took my Hawken into the woods, I was leaving a scoped Mauser sporter back at the house.
There was no internet or other good source of info on bp hunting. My only source was the Dixie catalog.
I had no idea if these round balls were any good. I figured, if the muzzleloader was no good, I would just go back to the Mauser. I was killing seven or eight deer a year, so one or two botched shots would be no big deal.
I quickly learned that the patched round ball killed BETTER than the 30-06. With the 30-06 on a lung shot, that deer was going to go 100 yards or more. I got good at blood trailing.
With the round ball, I never had a deer go over 40 yards. I killed 7 deer with the round ball, and six more wild hogs. It killed hogs better than it did deer.
Bridges talks about foot pounds of energy. I know the 30-06 has four times the foot pounds at 100 yards. The point is, the deer doesn't know it.

roundball · « **Reply #16 on:** October 18, 2006, 09:53:45 AM »

Correct...the Taylor forumla built for jacket high speed C/F bullets doesn't fit / won't work for large round lead objects...built on velocity, twist rate, cofficients, etc...apples and oranges.

And I've witnessed the same thing ragding terminal performance...I've double lung shot deer with a .264 WinMag, .30-06, etc and they'll fly 75-100yds and lay down...but my .50/.54/.58cal lead balls either drop them in there tracks, or they copllapse in sight after a mad dash for 25-35 yds.

These two both dropped in their tracks at around 50yds with .50cal balls from this Flintlock:

jh45gun · « **Reply #17 on:** October 18, 2006, 12:24:18 PM »

Nice Bucks Roundball.

Gregory · « **Reply #18 on:** October 18, 2006, 04:02:27 PM »

I got started in muzzleloading with a inline simply as a way to take andvantage of the two week extra deer season in Indiana (my home state at the time). Over the years, I've moved to traditional ML, and sold my inline. I just enjoy shooting them more, I've got three now (32, 50, &54)!

But to think that the inline's will put the muzzleloading seasons in jeopardy is short sighted. After all, the archery seasons were established years ago when only recurves were around and now we have compounds, which have made it easier for most, to not only extend the range a bit, but on average provide increased accuracy for the average shooter.

In Indiana you can hunt deer with a .308 or 30/06 as long as it is a handgun, but centerfire rifles are not legal. Does that make sense?

crow_feather · « **Reply #19 on:** October 18, 2006, 05:22:41 PM »

Gregory,

A modern bow has not extended the range of bow hunters to any great degree, and certainly not to the extreme of the in line rifle overr the traditional rifle. The times are changing for hunters all over. From the western hunting forum, a Wyoming Antelope hunter tells of most of the state's private lands being taken over by guides and trespass fees from private lands are getting higher. It is harder and harder to get a permit to hunt good public land.

The record books are being taken over by hunters that have bought their kill from a breeder or are using superior equipment to get what would never have been taken in a conventional manner.

Elk ranches are increasing, even though most people are not in favor of the idea. Money talks and those who would be rich, not caring how they get there, are on the wagon. Farmers are learning of the new wealth of their land. Trespass fees are increasing.

Hunting is no longer a sport where good sportsmanship abounds. It is like black powder, few of us want to cling to the way it was, and many more want every advantage that money can buy because it is no longer o k to come home empty handed. Today, it is not the hunt with friends and family that makes people happy. People must have the success of the kill. 500 yard shots are explored and attempted more and more every year. The ones that kill are touted and those that cripple are forgotten. There really is no group that polices hunter ethics. Those who "cheat" - like inliners don't care what we think anyway. It's not for the cheers that they play, it is to win the game.

KW · « **Reply #20 on:** October 18, 2006, 05:39:36 PM »

I have to say that Pedersoli has now got a new customer. Although I have to admit I haven't bought much from them, they will be the first place I will look at from now on. I think that there are two good ways to keep our tradition muzzleloaders alive, one is to fully support companies like Pedersoli who make a stand and make the traditional side of their market have creditbility and two, this one is on the hunters side, is even in the general season, keep using those awesome smokepoles!!! I think to many people hear or read about us traditionalists and see how much passion we have for hunting this way, but get confused because the moment we can use a center fire we do. Logically they think if traditional is so good why the switch? Nothing compares to meeting your friends for a hunt and they pull out those centerfires and your still hunting with that smokepole!!! They faces are a riot!! So lets support companies like Pedersoli and let's support our traditional hunting by not sticking that beautiful muzzleloader in the closet after the special season. With those two forces at work together it will make a powerful voice.

1187VX2 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 19, 2006, 06:55:49 AM »

Crow Feather - Sooooo anybody who hunts muzzleloader season with an inline is a cheater? Wow, that’s what hunting needs is more division. Good thing you’re so open minded to think that anybody who doesn’t do it your way is just wrong & a cheater.

By the way, you aren’t a cheater are you? You wouldn’t dare use any of that evil black powder replacement crap would you? Surely You know that Pyrodex & 777 are classified as ‘smokeless powders’ too, don’t you? Sure it takes more of it to get to the high velocity & it’s dirty, but they are also ‘smokeless powders’. I’m sure it’s black powder only for you, or you might be a cheater.

And I assume it is patched round balls only for you and that you mold these yourself, as store bought kinda seems like the easy way out, or cheating.

Oh yeah, please tell me that your hunting attire is all made of buckskin from deer you harvested. Of course you tanned the hide yourself and fashioned it into your garments & moccasins. None of that new fangled goretex this or rubber that. Otherwise you might be a cheater.

I could go on, but I’m sure you get the point. I don’t have much desire to kill anything at 500 yards – I much prefer to get closer and archery is the ultimate if you get right down to it. But I really like guns too and if a 200 yard shot presents itself, I feel no guilt about being ready for it.

But to label legal hunters as cheaters, is just silly and not helpful. Hunt the way you like & be happy, but don’t condemn someone else who doesn’t conform to your way of doing it.

Odinbreaker · « **Reply #22 on:** October 19, 2006, 11:10:40 AM »

Some of us folks cannot line up a rear and front sight w/o the blur.

copilot001 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 19, 2006, 06:07:43 PM »

when laws were passed to allow an extended hunting season with muzzle loaders what was the intent?...inlines with shotgun primers...scopes...sabots?...velocities exceeding some centre fire rifles?
or was the intent traditional black powder muzzle loaders fireing round ball or conicals.
when the time comes i put away my 30/06 and bring my 160 year old muzzle loader down off the wall.i already have 20 or30 balls cast up,cut my patches and lubed them.my black powder is premeasured and musket caps ready...i think that was the intent.
those that don,t see it that way are just trying to extend their hunting season and sooner or later it,s going to catch up to them and i think we,ll all loose when that time comes,they will just bann all extended hunting....that said.we really don,t need to get on each others cases, theres enough bambi huggers out there that want us disarmed and out of the woods...enough said.

KW · « **Reply #24 on:** October 19, 2006, 07:37:38 PM »

IT always amazes me that when a discussion starts up about traditional muzzleloaders the number of unrelated facets that get stuck to it. The three biggest are clothing, materials, technology.

On clothing, that has nothing to do with using a traditional muzzleloader. I have never owned a buckskin shirt or a coonskinned cap it has nothing to do with the actual method of taking game, which is with a traditional muzzlelaoder not with a moccosin, to consider clothing a part of using a traditional muzzleloader is like expecting everyone to wear bomber hats in Russia to actually be Russian

Materials, why is it always brought up that if you want to be traditional you have to make your own balls, and gun and heck even start the fire you use to roll your own balls with with a bow drill. Yes this adds a great connection to the game you take, but a factory round ball doesn't give that much advantage to the RB shooter. It is still the same method as a personally rolled ball. Sort of like to have a hot rod you can only use original parts, yea that would be cool but you can still have a cool rod with todays materials and still keep the spirit of what that rod was.

Technology. I swear if I hear that they had centerfires in the 1700 again I will scream!!! That is like comparing the Wright Brothers Kitty Hawk with a stealth Fighter, yea they both fly with one pilot, but please, a little common since. Yes they even had breech loaders in the Revolutionary War. The Ferguson Rifle was an excellent idea and although I think it has way more class to aan Encore, come on, Hello Mcfly, that isn't even in the same game no less ball park. Scopes...... ah another one.........thankfully there or correct period scopes on the market that will look great and function perfect for hunters and still stay in the spirit, but once again to compare these scopes to each other is like compering Fred Writer to Window XP.

crow_feather · « **Reply #25 on:** October 19, 2006, 08:21:52 PM »

If you are gonna pull mine, then pull those that made me write it, or I'll just have to write another
\
C F

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** October 19, 2006, 08:32:00 PM »

CF, feel free to voice your opinion, but please do it within GBO rules and leave the name calling out of it.

Thx,

Tim

manofthe45 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 19, 2006, 09:04:48 PM »

I replaced the stock barrel on my t/c flintlock with a GM fast twist barrel so that I can use a non copper plated lead saboted bullet effective range with my eyesight still around 75 yards never past 100, but I guess "i'm cheating". On a short side note because I really do hate this arguement. over the last three years I have taken 17 people to the range to try my inlines because they expressed interest in ML but were afraid of the mess and bother. of those 17 2 decided they hated blackpowder, 3 decided to stick with inlines only 2 I lost track of and the BEST PART "11" have purchased flintlocks to use during our traditional only season. thats 14 people who learned to love ML and 11 who took it the next step to traditional eqiupment. only one of those 14 ever used pellets in their "space gun". Inlines are less scary to someone who has never used blackpowder. My father who taught me to hunt took me out rifle only. Archery, ML, trapping all these I learned myself jumping in with both feet but some people need to be led with baby steps. please think about this the next time you run into spock and Kurt in the woods with their space guns. Maybe if you spent the time to explain your choice instead of bashing them for theirs you might get a few recruits. I always use the old extra season after christmas line. works aleast half the time. anyway work tommorow ML hunt sat. maybe i'll take one of the flints, or maybe one of my sidelock percussion caps, maybe my underhammer percussion, or even god forbid one of my heathenistic ought to be banned from existance "Space guns".

I just have to write that again because it is just the dumbest thing I have ever read " space guns, space guns,space guns, space guns,space guns, space guns,space guns, space guns,space guns, space guns,"

manofthe45 · « **Reply #28 on:** October 19, 2006, 09:31:54 PM »

one last point I have always wanted to make but always get side tracked. Everyone always totes the "our forefathers" agruement. well one ? barring the social elite of yesteryears who could aford to hunt for sport and fun the average man back then hunted to put food on the table not because he wanted to but because he had to. He also had to plant food, chop wood, etc these where things that all had to be done nearly everyday. my ? is if you could go back in time and offer him that new inline fully scoped saboted bullets I mean eveything. I really wonder if he would keep what he had or take the improved model. he used what he did because he had to. he had no other option. I do why does using that choice when legal make me a cheater. I am not argueing for the smokeless powder userers, but I'm sorry if I measure out a load of Goex BP, pour it down the barrel, seat a round, use a primer, and get a large cloud of smoke in front of me when I touch the trigger its a MUZZLELOADER. whether with poor eyesight I chose to put a low power scope on it is completly irrelevant. how come a brass tube with 2 or 4 power lenes is ok to put in my percussion but not my 2 power simmons. anyway I done I sure I'll be blasted for the next week anyway because of my posts but those are my two cents and if you don't like it tough I don't always agree with all of you either

1187VX2 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 20, 2006, 02:56:58 AM »

My whole point was that if you are a traditionalist, what parts of that can you pick & choose & still be traditional? If synthetic this or synthetic that still fits your definition of traditional then so be it. It is about having fun & if you don't want to mold your own bullets, don't.

But then don't come down on guys with modern guns/technology because they don't do it the same way you do. Manofthe45 makes a good point - it is here, it is available, it is legal - nothing wrong with using it.

And I really don't believe that any DNR gives a crap about our preferences in how we take deer. They yeild to pressure from all the special interest groups (insurance companies) about too many deer so they open more seasons so we can kill more deer. Bottom line to the states is now much cash can we take in and now many deer will the hunters take out.