Author Topic: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML  (Read 3543 times)

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Offline CallaoJoe

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2006, 03:48:53 AM »
It's my understanding that the in-line ignition system was patented in 1812 by Swiss gun maker J. S. Pauley, who was working in England at the time.....    So, why then aren't in-lines considered traditional.... ::)

Here's a link to a rifle built by Doc White to mimic Pauley's design.....  Just scroll down to the Pauley rifle....

http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/custom_traditional.htm
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with me. I said, "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright

Offline roundball

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2006, 04:34:30 AM »
IT always amazes me that when a discussion starts up about traditional muzzleloaders the number of unrelated facets that get stuck to it. The three biggest are clothing, materials, technology.

Agree...there are some who don't understand traditional muzzleloaders, how to use them, or how to hunt with them so their effective range is equivalent to a .30-30 woods rifle, and they often resort to comments that are clearly intended to be demeaning such as "running around the woods in buckskins, play acting...and let's not forget the 'red herring' that gets tossed out about "inlines were invented in the 1800's", etc.

Traditonal Muzzleloading consists of muzzleloader designs that were fashioned after those typically representative of what was commonly used back during the early American muzzleloading era...the fact that someone attempted to experiment with some sort of "inline" that was never accepted and adopted for any kind of widespread use does not make that event some sort of clever allowance that modern inlines are therefore traditional...those kind of comments just throw gasoline on adult attempts to have rational conversations and cause unproductive flare-ups and fires.

I took up the older muzzleloading technology for the challenge of learning how to operate them 100% reliably...holding the crosshairs on an unsuspecting deer 300yds away in a field was not rocket science to me...by contrast filling all my tags with Flintlocks & patched balls is much more challenging and satisfying....45/.50/.54/.58/.62 calibers...all Hornday balls except the .62 which I buy from a custom ball maker because Hornady doesn't make a .62cal...TC precut/prelubed patches...I wear modern wick-dry thermals, Thinsulate caps & gloves, Gore-Tex raingear, quality boots, etc.

For example, I hunted last November's rut on 2 weeks vacation, got a 4 pointer, an 8, and two beautiful 10 pointers with a .58cal Flintlock & 279grn lead ball...all around 50yds, dropped them where they stood...my deer season was over in 10 days...people can make all the uniformed claims about traditional muzzleloaders that they want, meanwhile I'll just keep filling tags...like hunters have done with Flintlocks for the past 200-300 years...several Remington 700's / calibers and big Leupold scopes just lay oiled in their cases...never use them anymore.  This is the prettiest 10 pointer from last year:


PS: not advocating Flintlocks are for everybody...there's also a moden variant of a traditional muzzleloader called a caplock, invented around 1830.


         
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Online Graybeard

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2006, 07:07:13 AM »
If you are gonna pull mine, then pull those that made me write it, or I'll just have to write another
\
C F

I've seen that one in the trash can. Doing that over again would NOT be a wise move on your part. Violating my rules that badly again might make it your last here. You can say what you wanted to say but within the GBO rules I'm sure. I'm confident your vocabulary is up to the job. But such a gross violation of the rules again and I'm not gonna over look it even for an long time poster like yourself. There was NO excuse for that rant and the foul language.


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Offline CallaoJoe

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2006, 08:25:32 AM »
Hey roundball, that's a beautiful deer, and a beautiful rifle as well....  Love the crab claw on the right main beam.  Nice overall picture too.  There is an art to takin good kill shots, and this is a fine example of it.

BTW....  Is that a T/C Hawken flinter?  I've got a .54 that looks alot like it, but it's a cap & ball.  Been thinkin about makin my own Kentucky flinter in the off hunting-season....
When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked if I had any firearms
with me. I said, "Well, what do you need?" -- Steven Wright

Offline longcaribiner

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2006, 08:42:52 AM »
Traditionalists or not the argument is that the in-line is not a primitive type firearm.  The bolt action was invented in the 1830's by an Englishman and sold to the Prussians.  A Scots man invented the persussion system around 1804.  Archery has come a long way since recurves, compounds, even trigger releases and cross bows.      PA considered legalizing the Atlatl and turned it down.     Next Toby will be firing broadheads on the end of his ram rod and calling it high performance archery.   Here in PA we can't use a Ferguson breechloading flintlock, or 1859 Sharps percussion breech loader for Deer in any season, but centerfire muzzle stuffers are legal in the early muzzleloade season.  Thank god though not in the late flint only season.    But Toby isn't content to have his master's (White's) products legal, he is now advocating making the traditionalist's manner of hunting illegal.  Some here in PA have advocated a Primitive weapons season for everything from spears, bolos, and bows to muzzleloaders.   He wants to put the rest out of competition.  A corporate sell out scab.   The only purpose is to sell White rifles.

Offline roundball

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2006, 08:55:45 AM »
Hey roundball, that's a beautiful deer, and a beautiful rifle as well....  Love the crab claw on the right main beam.  Nice overall picture too.  There is an art to takin good kill shots, and this is a fine example of it.

BTW....  Is that a T/C Hawken flinter?  I've got a .54 that looks alot like it, but it's a cap & ball.  Been thinkin about makin my own Kentucky flinter in the off hunting-season....

Most symmetrical rack of any buck I've ever taken...matching crabclaw is covered by the rifle's forearm.
Have horns in attic, horns nailed up around the garage, etc, but have never had a head mounted in my life...sure have had a lot of second thoughts about wishing maybe I'd mounted this one.

Rifle is a TC Hawken with .58cal Green Mountain drop-in Flint barrel (1" x 33" x 1:70")...and if you're not aware of it, TC significantly redesigned their flint lock assemblies and vent liners 5-6 years ago...100% reliable today...using Tom Fuller 3/4" black English flints and Goex 4F prime, Goex 3F main, ignition seems instantaneous...like shooting a .30-30 every time.
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
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Offline Wolfhound

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2006, 08:58:43 AM »
by contrast filling all my tags with Flintlocks & patched balls is much more challenging and satisfying...<snip>I wear modern wick-dry thermals, Thinsulate caps & gloves, Gore-Tex raingear, quality boots, etc.


Isn't that an anachronism? That's be like an inline hunter wearing buckskins and just as traditional. Nice buck, btw. I can see why your not in the picture, it would look odd with those high tech hunting clothes.




Offline CallaoJoe

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2006, 09:22:20 AM »
Most symmetrical rack of any buck I've ever taken...matching crabclaw is covered by the rifle's forearm.
Have horns in attic, horns nailed up around the garage, etc, but have never had a head mounted in my life...sure have had a lot of second thoughts about wishing maybe I'd mounted this one.

Rifle is a TC Hawken with .58cal Green Mountain drop-in Flint barrel (1" x 33" x 1:70")...and if you're not aware of it, TC significantly redesigned their flint lock assemblies and vent liners 5-6 years ago...100% reliable today...using Tom Fuller 3/4" black English flints and Goex 4F prime, Goex 3F main, ignition seems instantaneous...like shooting a .30-30 every time.

Just so you know, and you probably do....  You can still get the head mounted.  Just save a nice cape from another kill.  Doesn't even have to be a buck. 

My biggest deer, I got into it a bit with the taxedermist, cause when I went to pick it up, I knew it wasn't the same cape....  The deer I killed had a big ole ugly pig nose, but the mount I picked up was nothing like that.  I'd waited almost 2 years to get the mount back, and even though it still looked really nice, I was definitely dissapointed.  I have not used this guy again.....

May have to look into converting my .54 to a flinter one of these days... ::)

I've got a similar buck running around my place this year.  Cept he only has the crab claw on the right side.  He was 40 yds away from me during early bow season, but never gave me what I thought was a clean shot....
When I was crossing the border into Canada, they asked if I had any firearms
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Offline roundball

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2006, 10:03:29 AM »
May have to look into converting my .54 to a flinter one of these days... ::)

I respect your skill and experience in waiting for the correct shot and just not "letting fly"...I never take a shot unless I know without a doubt I'll kill that deer and always try to do so with a direct heart shot.

Conversion is easy to do...I have a few Flintlocks now in different calibers and some of them used to be caplocks that I had.
Sometimes 30 minutes of careful shaving/trimming in the lock mortise may be required to get the Flint type lock to drop all the way in...sometimes not...plus a Flint barrel of course and you're all set.

TC's early manufacturing process seemed to have one precise inletting operation for a caplock, and a separate & slightrly different inletting operation for a Flint lock...but in more recent years it seems they've gone to a generic inletting operation where either lock will drop right in...so depending on how old yours is, a Flint lock asm might fit fine as is
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Offline Ramrod

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2006, 01:33:04 PM »
My whole point was that if you are a traditionalist, what parts of that can you pick & choose & still be traditional?   If synthetic this or synthetic that still fits your definition of traditional then so be it.  It is about having fun & if you don't want to mold your own bullets, don't.

But then don't come down on guys with modern guns/technology because they don't do it the same way you do.  Manofthe45 makes a good point - it is here, it is available, it is legal - nothing wrong with using it.

And I really don't believe that any DNR gives a crap about our preferences in how we take deer.  They yeild to pressure from all the special interest groups (insurance companies) about too many deer so they open more seasons so we can kill more deer.  Bottom line to the states is now much cash can we take in and now many deer will the hunters take out.
You are damn right about one thing. Nowadays, the states don't care how you do it, they just want the liscence money. But the special seasons were set up years ago at a time when it was an accepted fact that people who hunted with primitive weapons were a small minority, and really wouldn't dent the game population much. That's the reason for letting them out into the woods early. Technology has allowed people who are too lazy and ignorant to learn how to use primitive weapons, (and I'll include compounds and crossbows here too), to "shoot" in these special seasons. They just use the loopholes to get an extra tag, or an early start. That's why many of us call them cheaters.
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline quickdtoo

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Offline Ramrod

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2006, 02:04:00 PM »
Yee hah, pack up the kids Momma, we's moving! My scoped 7mm Remington Rolling Block is a "primitive weapon". Oh crap, I forgot, we are wealthy. Wait a minute, I'll just get a nonresident tag. The price doesn't matter. I can kill a deer with a 300 yard smokeless powder rifle during the "primitive season"! Life is good!
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline crow_feather

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2006, 02:34:34 PM »
Greybeard,

It is your site, but I do feel better for letting it out.  Wanted to say that for a long time.  No offense intended, but I hope that he read it before you pulled it.  If not, would you miind sending it to him?......................................................no - suppose not.
IF THE WORLD DISARMED, WE WOULD BE SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE AGGRESSIVE ALIENS THAT LIVE ON THE THIRD MOON OF JUPITOR.

Offline crow_feather

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2006, 02:43:56 PM »
As for in-lines being built prior to the 1900's.  They may have been, but were not a comercial success.  A lever action 6 shot rifle was built in the early 1600's.  Should we then allow 30-30's in the black powder season?   Naw.


IF THE WORLD DISARMED, WE WOULD BE SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE USED BY THE AGGRESSIVE ALIENS THAT LIVE ON THE THIRD MOON OF JUPITOR.

Offline jh45gun

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2006, 02:54:48 PM »
My whole point was that if you are a traditionalist, what parts of that can you pick & choose & still be traditional?   If synthetic this or synthetic that still fits your definition of traditional then so be it.  It is about having fun & if you don't want to mold your own bullets, don't.

But then don't come down on guys with modern guns/technology because they don't do it the same way you do.  Manofthe45 makes a good point - it is here, it is available, it is legal - nothing wrong with using it.

And I really don't believe that any DNR gives a crap about our preferences in how we take deer.  They yeild to pressure from all the special interest groups (insurance companies) about too many deer so they open more seasons so we can kill more deer.  Bottom line to the states is now much cash can we take in and now many deer will the hunters take out.
You are damn right about one thing. Nowadays, the states don't care how you do it, they just want the liscence money. But the special seasons were set up years ago at a time when it was an accepted fact that people who hunted with primitive weapons were a small minority, and really wouldn't dent the game population much. That's the reason for letting them out into the woods early. Technology has allowed people who are too lazy and ignorant to learn how to use primitive weapons, (and I'll include compounds and crossbows here too), to "shoot" in these special seasons. They just use the loopholes to get an extra tag, or an early start. That's why many of us call them cheaters.

Well I use a crossbow because I can as I am disabled (Legs are getting bad plus other issues I will not get into here) before that I used a compound but I started out with a recurve. I also have a inline but I prefer to hunt with my cap lock Ball shooter and my Underhammer fast twist. Now though they are not inlines as such I have a peep sight on the ball shooter and now a red dot on the underhammer. My main objective is to HIT what I shoot at and if that is cheating so be it. I would rather be gutting out a deer I made clean shot on then making a crappy shot and wounding the deer or missing it because I could not see the sights just to be PC. I paid my dues so if I want a extra tag I feel entitled and I will tell you why. I hunt only in my state I do not go out west nor do I go to Canada or any neighboring state. I do however have to compete with plenty of out of state hunters in my state so if I want a extra tag I feel entitled and I do not consider it cheating. In my muzzle loaders I use bullets or balls that  I cast and started out with black powder and now after trying the subs am going back to black powder. Still I want a clean kill so if that means using a peep sight or a scope or red dot so be it. I do not care if it is traditional or not I want to make a clean hit at what I shoot at and for the record I feel 100 yard shots are about the limit for me no matter what muzzle loader I would use. I do not believe in the guys pushing the long shots I think it is wrong and will say so. If you see a animal wait till it gets close or you get close to it. That to me is hunting and using the right equipment to make sure I kill that animal cleanly is also hunting the way it should be. I Crossbow hunt, Rifle/pistol hunt and muzzle load hunt and do not figure the extra tags  I get is cheating. Cheating is going out with your old lady not getting an extra tag!~
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Ramrod

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2006, 03:36:24 PM »
I too can fool the government into giving me a handicapped parking space, or a disability hunting permit. It's not like they come out and look at you or anything. I doubt you and I will ever agree here, but most people can cheat the system, weather it's a parking space, or an extra tag. I could get a crossbow tag too, and hunt out of a motor vehicle, but I'd rather be dead.
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline jh45gun

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2006, 06:09:58 PM »
I too can fool the government into giving me a handicapped parking space, or a disability hunting permit. It's not like they come out and look at you or anything. I doubt you and I will ever agree here, but most people can cheat the system, weather it's a parking space, or an extra tag. I could get a crossbow tag too, and hunt out of a motor vehicle, but I'd rather be dead.

I am not fooling anyone I am on SS disability and if you think the GOV hands that to you then you are mistaken big time. As far as hunting out of a vehicle goes I would rather do that and get out and still be able to hunt than to sit at home and stagnate. If you think that folks that are on disabilty are fooling the Government then you are pretty pitiful and misinformed. I do not know how getting an extra tag is cheating? In my state I apply for a license and get the tags for both archery or gun. Like every one else I lay my money down and get the licenses I want just like every one else does so how is that cheating?
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline manofthe45

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2006, 04:45:26 AM »
Ramrod that last post was out of line.
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Offline Lost Okie

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2006, 03:05:10 PM »
Here we go again....SSDD.  If that offends, you have my personal apology...  I belong to a blackpowder club in central Indiana, if you come out with anything other than a flintlock they give you a hard time (all in fun) and that's they key.  We hunt with MLoaders because we want more time in the woods.  Some of us have to use a scope or peep sight these days so we can make a decent shot.  Come on folks, don't let the toby bridges of the world get too you.  I hunt with what I like, where I like (keeping it all legal).  Heck, I just came back from a buffalo hunt and shot a cow, and yes I used a caplock / black powder 7 round ball with a scope and the hunt was on a hunting ranch and no the buffalo was not wild.  Is this cheating, to some it may be, to others ??  Lets all chill out and go out to the range and pop some caps, or spark some flint.....

Offline Ramrod

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2006, 12:22:01 AM »
Here we go again....SSDD.  If that offends, you have my personal apology...  I belong to a blackpowder club in central Indiana, if you come out with anything other than a flintlock they give you a hard time (all in fun) and that's they key.  We hunt with MLoaders because we want more time in the woods.  Some of us have to use a scope or peep sight these days so we can make a decent shot.  Come on folks, don't let the toby bridges of the world get too you.  I hunt with what I like, where I like (keeping it all legal).  Heck, I just came back from a buffalo hunt and shot a cow, and yes I used a caplock / black powder 7 round ball with a scope and the hunt was on a hunting ranch and no the buffalo was not wild.  Is this cheating, to some it may be, to others ??  Lets all chill out and go out to the range and pop some caps, or spark some flint.....
Shooting tame animals in a pasture may or may not be cheating, but it's definately not hunting. That's the sort of thing that the anti-hunters really love to throw in the face of sportsmen. Ya know something? Most hunters can not and will not defend it. Just because a muzzleloader was used does not make it any more sporting.
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline dukkillr

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2006, 07:18:00 AM »
I love reading this stuff.

Shooting tame animals in a pasture is definitely not hunting.  If it is, the butchers for Tyson are the best hunters in the world!  If an animal can't get away it's a slaughter, not a hunt. 

BTW, I've got several cows on my south 40 that I'll let you "hunt" (with a round ball, or xbow if you like!) if you've got enough money.  I think SCI even has a category for black angus!  The thing that really gets me is that people don't understand the damage this "hunting" does to real hunting and hunters. 

What a joke.

Offline Mr. Curious

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2006, 10:12:08 AM »
I hope you bitch this much when your hunting rights are gone because you are so busy trying to prove your way is better than others.  I could care less how you kill an animal just as long as your legal.   Hunt the way you and be proud of it,but don't make fun of someone who does it a different way or say that it is unethical, wrong, just  BE PROUD THAT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT AND THE FREEDOM TO HUNT!!!  Or at least until the antis win because it will happen if this continues in the hunting world.
Thanks


Edited by Graybeard for TOS Violations.

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2006, 10:02:58 AM »
Quote
So, why then aren't in-lines considered traditional....


You know I can understand all the arguement over why people should be allowed to use in-lines, but for the life of me I cannot understand how people actually consider them "traditional".

I guess I always consider "traditional" as an attempt to recreate something from the past.  The T/C Hawken, although it doesn't duplicate any particular gun from the past, the attempt to make it "fit in" with the past is clear.  The T/C Hawken is clearly an attempt at making a gun that looks like it came from the 1840s.  It's an attempt to make a gun look more primitive that it really is.  It's a loose rendition of a real Hawken, with no actual performance advantage.  The only reason for buying a T/C Hawken is because you can't afford a genuine Hawken.

Most modern in-lines are an attempt to look more state-of-the-art than they really are.  They are at the very least contemporary, and at most futuristic.  Not traditional.  You're taking a muzzle loader and attempting to make it look like a Model 70. 

That said, I don't see "traditional" as any qualification for a hunt.  It's the performance advantages that are worth regulating. 

Let's examine muzzle loading.  There are 3 challenges inherent to muzzle loading that are probably paramount in justifying an extra season.  1) is the challenge of slow reloading.  2) is the challenge of reliable ignition 3) is the challenge of reduced effective range. 

1) As long as powder and projectile have to rammed down the muzzle, the reloading process will always take several seconds.  This will prevent most follow up shots at game since wild game tends to flee once it hears the gun's report.  So it can be said that taking this limitation on is a considerable challenge, and any hunter who can succeed with this handicap is a better hunter than one who needs a quick follow up shot (all other challenges being equal).  To date, all three muzzle loading categories, flintlock, caplock, and in-line are about equal with respect to this handicap.

2) Because all muzzle loaders require the propellant to be dropped from the muzzle the propellant has an inherent risk of contamination by water due to it's inevitable exposure to the elements.  All three categories of ML's share this risk.  But there are other factors that greatly affect the reliability of ignition.  And not all ML categories are the same with this respect.  The most vulnerable ML category to ignition problems is the flintlock.  The shooter is responsible for keeping the pan charge dry, the flint in good condition, and the discipline to hold steady in spite of the fire-flash 4 inches from his shooting eye.  The hunter who succeeds under these handicaps has indeed accomplished something noteworthy.  The next most vulnerable ML category is the side-lock caplock.  The shooter need only to assure that the cap is dry which is considerably easier than a flintlock.  There is little flash in the face, and the hammer and nipple seldom wear out.  But, in inclement weather that tiny cap is vulnerable to dampness and a fouled flash channel will cause problems.  The in-line has some vulnerability to ignition problems, but that can vary depending on the style.  Generally speaking there is more difference between the flintlock and the caplocks than the caplocks and in-lines.

3) Because of the caliber minimums often written into the game laws and the limitation of Black powder and its substitutes, velocities and ballistic coefficients have governed the effective range of all muzzle loader categories.  The methods employed to gain advantages in effective range have all been in the area of projectile and propellant development.  A bullet is not going to shoot flatter or farther based simply on how the powder charge was ignited.  Instead what really wins advantages in effective range is muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient.  To gain superior ballistic coefficient a longer bullet is needed.  But ballistic coefficient will not help unless the bullet starts out with some velocity.  To get superior velocity either more powder, a better powder, or a lighter bullet must be used.  But using a lighter bullet means reducing the length and therefore the ballistic coefficient.  To reduce bullet weight while maintaining decent ballistic coefficient one needs to reduce the caliber, but state game laws require a minimum bore diameter.  To get around this, people employed sabots, which seal the gap between a small diameter bullet and a large diameter bore.  This allows a shooter to fire a .43 caliber, 240 grain bullet at 2000 fps from a .50 caliber bore.  To get the same trajectory from a caliber-sized bullet the bullet would weigh almost twice as much and recoil would be excruciating (driving a 420 grain maxi at 2000 fps!).  Incidentally, there are large-bore (.69 and up) rifles that will shoot roundballs weighing 400+ grains at near 1800 fps.

So it would seem to me that if you really wanted to regulate the ML season based on real-life handicaps rather than just a persons personal tastes you should set the restrictions based on the three major factors 1)reloading speed 2)reliable ignition 3)effective range.  If you think that factor number one is a sufficient handicap to justify an extra week of hunting then pretty much any muzzle loader has that handicap.  If you think the reliability of ignition is what really poses the challenge then you ought to draw the line between flintlocks and caplocks.   If you think that effective range is what make muzzleloading worthwhile, then restrict the projectile/sabot designs.  When you think about it, in-lines per se are nothing more than an ugly gun.  It's the advance from flint to cap and the sabot that have made the real differences. 
 

Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!

Offline USMC0332

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« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2006, 05:54:26 PM »
   I gave up muzzleloading as a teen. There were far less deer than now, and I wanted to shoot my first one. ML hunters could shoot either sex. In the 80's winter in Minnesota turned nasty before Thanksgiving, and ML season started the weekend of Thanksgiving. I missed my first viable shot on a deer after 5 hard hunted seasons in the cold due to an ignition failure, popped 3 caps before ignition. That and sitting in a deerstand on windy -20F days was the end of my ML hunting. Now 20+ years later we have too many deer(and thankfully youth antlerless tags, instead of the lottery). Now we have mild winters. I don't even know where my snowshoes are. I can shoot 5 deer, at least 4 have to be antlerless. I can now buy a modern inline that will fire every time, with more effective killing power than a piece of history. I still can't use a scope, but I would if the law allowed it. I do not ML hunt yet, but I am planning on it when I can buy a new inline, unless the urge forces me to drag the CVA sidelock out. I just got it back from my Dad after all this time.
   I just want to hunt more. The woods and hunting are two of my favorite things. If ML is the vehicle that gets me there, so be it. I will use every modern convenience that the law allows me(and I can afford), from polypropolene to Goretex to powder to bullets. If you choose to hunt with a historic flintlock, with homemade powder, self cast balls, and all of the conveniences that a French/Canadien trapper had in days long past, I APPLAUD YOU and would love to shake your hand in the woods someday. I would honestly be impressed.
   Hunting is what you make of it. I am a meat hunter. I can and have shot a doe opening morning. I would like to shoot a big buck, but I sure enjoy eating all of the venison that the MN DNR allows me to. That is why they give out so many tags, to thin the herd. Another hunter may only shoot a big buck. It is his choice not to eat these tasty does and fawns. That is within his rights to do so. We have choices. I used to use heavy Minne' balls because I felt they were more effective than round balls, from what I had witnessed in the woods. For some it is one thing for others another. If it is legal to use a round ball and you like them, use them. I won't hack ya for it. If the law allows you to do something, yet it defies your personal ethics don't do it. If the law said you could bear hunt with a spear, and you can effectively kill bears with spears, I say go for it. I will use a gun, please don't attack me for it
   I am a gun guy. I shoot hundreds of rifle cartridges a year. I have little interest in bullets that I can't take game with. I have friends that may not even sight their rifles in before season, though I wish they would hone their skills and check out their guns. They are hunters, rifles are but tools to them. I would love to shoot hundreds of saboted bullets in a new Savage ML110. I will when I get one. I know there are ML hunters that are starting to think about shooting off the loaded gun from last year. Then will come the wirebrush scrubbing to scrape the rust out of the bores. Come hunting season they will be ready to go, just like all the other years. Again the gun is but a tool.
   My Dad has had open heart surgery and is 60 and retired. He now has the free time to bow hunt. He may wind up with a crossbow, as he feels that pulling a string would aggravate his sternum that was split in '88. I say good for him. The law would allow it. Does that make him evil because he won't be out in the woods with a homemade longbow with homemade cedar arrows? Not to me it doesn't. Technology doesn't stop because we want it to. 
   I do not like trash talk and putdowns in general. I especially hate it when it is in this community of sportsmen. Division amongst ourselves can be a destructive thing. Our strength is in unity. None of us is really any better than the other. We all make choices in what we like and what we don't. Looking good to Joe Public because we are law abiding and ethical and united is good for the future of our sports. Supporting all types of gun rights is good for our sports. Being united means that a ML hunter supports a guy whose sport is target shooting with military style rifles or handguns, and vice versa. Fellas there are a lot of us out there. Together we can insure that someday I might have a chance to teach a grand child about the sports I love. I might get a chance to praise them for a bullseye, or a first pheasant, or deer. That is the future I look forward to. I hope you feel the same. This is a legacy. I hope it continues for many generations.
   

Offline jh45gun

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2006, 06:37:17 PM »
Good luck hunting to you. IF your dad gets a crossbow I bet he will like it. Good luck to him too.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline manofthe45

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2006, 06:59:18 PM »
Good luck to you in thw woods.  I would like to shake your hand, but sorry wont be in old garb.  Buy an inline enjoy your inline, but dont feel the need to put up the old cva.  some of the things i
disliked when I was younger I now love. I used to hate hikeing 2 miles into the woods to hunt now I love it although I still hate having to drag deer two miles over rocks and logs, but what do you do.  Hope your dad enjoys a crossbow. Its kept me hunting a few times when my shoulder swelled to twice its size and I couldn't pick up my bow let alone draw it.  Good luck to both of you. ;D
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Offline Ramrod

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2006, 07:00:53 PM »
USMC, give the old CVA another try before you go over to the dark side. If you learn to load it right, you won't have any misfires.
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2006, 11:44:36 AM »
Quote
If you choose to hunt with a historic flintlock, with homemade powder, self cast balls, and all of the conveniences that a French/Canadien trapper had in days long past, I APPLAUD YOU and would love to shake your hand in the woods someday. I would honestly be impressed.

Now hey that's the right attitude. 

Like you, I enjoy the meat.  But if that was the only reason, we'd have to buy meat from the grocerie it's so much more economical.  In the many hours spent freezing on the stand I've examined my reasons for hunting.  I hunt for the sport.  Not the meat, not the trophy, but the sport.  You cannot have a sport without a contest.  As hunters we just have to be aware that every piece of technology tips the contest in our favor.  Less technology means greater contest.  And it appears that you've got the idea.

The people who challenge us by asking "What's next?  Why don't you wear moccasins and hunt with a spear?" The best response is quite simply, "I'm not that good."

I know I'm good enough to hunt with a caplock.  I've put meat in the freezer with one for 9 straight years.  A flintlock is more challenging.
Black Jaque Janaviac - Dat's who!

Hawken - the gun that made the west wild!

Offline jlbeebe

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2006, 09:30:41 PM »
Quote
If you choose to hunt with a historic flintlock, with homemade powder, self cast balls, and all of the conveniences that a French/Canadien trapper had in days long past, I APPLAUD YOU and would love to shake your hand in the woods someday. I would honestly be impressed.

Now hey that's the right attitude. 

Like you, I enjoy the meat.  But if that was the only reason, we'd have to buy meat from the grocerie it's so much more economical.  In the many hours spent freezing on the stand I've examined my reasons for hunting.  I hunt for the sport.  Not the meat, not the trophy, but the sport.  You cannot have a sport without a contest.  As hunters we just have to be aware that every piece of technology tips the contest in our favor.  Less technology means greater contest.  And it appears that you've got the idea.

The people who challenge us by asking "What's next?  Why don't you wear moccasins and hunt with a spear?" The best response is quite simply, "I'm not that good."

I know I'm good enough to hunt with a caplock.  I've put meat in the freezer with one for 9 straight years.  A flintlock is more challenging.
We all hunt for different reasons. I hunt because it is what I like to do. I sometimes use a sidelock but mostly use my knight rifle. I am not in a contest or competing against other hunters. I don't try to impose my will on others and resent it when others try to do it to me. If you want to compete then go be on a "reality" show, I will go to the woods and enjoy myself.

Offline Ramrod

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Re: Goex withdraws support for Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on ML
« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2006, 10:21:50 PM »
jlbeebe, you missed the point of Black Jaque's last post. It is not a contest or competition between you and other hunters, it is between you and the deer. Some think that using an inline means the hunter needs to have a bigger advantage against the deer. Is it because of a lack of hunting skills?
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith