Author Topic: Which One; .45-70, .450, or .444 (Read 3874 times)

jasonprox700 · « **on:** October 17, 2006, 07:30:19 AM »

I am looking at getting a new gun and didn't know which caliber to get, the .45-70, .450, or the .444. I reload but I would still like to keep the prices down a little. Which one?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 17, 2006, 08:21:18 AM »

They all wind up costing you about the same price for the rifle...For reloading...The nod goes to the 45-70 for cost of the brass....For factory ammo...the nod goes again to the 45-70.....All three will kill just about anything for performance..

Find the rifle that fits you the best and has the best trigger pull..and the best feel to you....buy it...reload for it...and enjoy it...There all good

Mac

oso45-70 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 17, 2006, 09:16:24 AM »

Jasonprox700.

All three will do the job, If the cost of ammo is a concern the 45-70 is going to take first place, Its just a matter of choice from this point. If you hand load any of the three will work out for you, But in my estimation you would be better off with the tried and true 45-70. Good luck sir........Joe........

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 17, 2006, 10:52:07 AM »

Without a doubt the 45-70.

CallaoJoe · « **Reply #4 on:** October 17, 2006, 10:57:10 AM »

I really like my 45-70, but it's a 1874 C.Sharps, not a lever gun.

It's a fun cartridge to reload, and components are easy to come by.

Many great loads for cast and jacketed bullets. Cast your own, or you can find lots of places that sell em online.

And, they make big holes.

I just get a kick outta shootin big chunks of lead..... (No pun intended.)

Good luck makin yer decision.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 17, 2006, 11:04:16 AM »

Quote from: CallaoJoe on October 17, 2006, 10:57:10 AM

I really like my 45-70, but it's a 1874 C.Sharps, not a lever gun.

It's a fun cartridge to reload, and components are easy to come by.

Many great loads for cast and jacketed bullets. Cast your own, or you can find lots of places that sell em online.

And, they make big holes. I just get a kick outta shootin big chunks of lead..... (No pun intended.)

Good luck makin yer decision.

I have a Marlin Lever Action and a Shiloh Sharps in 45-70. Great round. The Marlin I shoot smokeless and in my Sharps I shoot only black powder cartridges.

CallaoJoe · « **Reply #6 on:** October 17, 2006, 11:10:29 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on October 17, 2006, 11:04:16 AM

I have a Marlin Lever Action and a Shiloh Sharps in 45-70. Great round. The Marlin I shoot smokeless and in my Sharps I shoot only black powder cartridges.

I just bought my C.Sharps a couple a months ago, and I'm just starting to get into the BP reloading. Prolly won't get after it real hard til after Christmas aka after deer season(s) for me. My gun club has monthly NRA/BPCR shoots that I'm hoping to start taking part in.... Still have not purchased my Vernier/Soule sight. Lookin at the Baldwins.

Anyway, din't mean to hijack the thread. But I do love the 45-70.....

daddywpb · « **Reply #7 on:** October 17, 2006, 11:32:52 AM »

The 45/70 will do anything that the other two will do plus a lot more. It's a very versatile caliber, whether you reload or not. From low cost, reduced velocity plinkers, to full house 500 grain thumpers, the Marlin 45/70 will take anything on this continent or serve you well at the range. I wouldn't trade my Guide Guns for anything.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #8 on:** October 17, 2006, 06:27:51 PM »

The .45-70 has the broadest variety of factory ammo available - from mild to wild. Low recoil, inexpensive cowboy rounds to Garrett Exiter loads that use 500g Speer Grand Slam Tungsten Solid bullets.

As a reloader, my hardcast plinker loads run $2.60 a box, my North Fork hunting loads run about $1 each.

shilo · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2006, 01:40:56 AM »

Both, with the right bullets, can handle basically the same range of game. However, if I was going after the big bears I'd definately want the 45/70 in my hands. The 444 has a slightly flatter trajectory with less recoil. Do you need a 45 cal 430gr bullet @ 2000fps or will a 444 cal 335gr bullet @ 2000fps do?

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2006, 04:14:50 AM »

Quote

The 444 has a slightly flatter trajectory with less recoil.

When both the 45-70 Gov't and 444 Marlin are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, given equal sectional density, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given equal weight, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. Hence, the 45-70 Gov't will shoot just as "flat" as the 444 Marlin while delivering more energy to the target and more recoil to the shooter.

glshop20 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2006, 11:07:04 AM »

Go with the 45-70. The selection of bullets, availability of brass and lot's of loading data make it number 1. You can load it light for fun and target or load it to the point of you eye-balls leaving your head if you shoot off a bench. BE SURE TO USE RELOADING DATA FOR THE ACTION STRENGTH OF THE RIFLE!!!!!!

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2006, 04:45:51 AM »

Out of the box, the .450 out performs the other two hands down. However, the price for the non-handloader is a "bit" high and the ammo scarce. That has to be taken into account. I do see the Hornady boxes regularly in gun stores. I'm still surprised that after reading about other ammo makers making .450, I still havent seen any of it out there. Only the Hornady and one of the specialty makers.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2006, 06:05:17 AM »

Quote

Out of the box, the .450 out performs the other two hands down.

Which box might this be?

Mac

CallaoJoe · « **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2006, 06:25:46 AM »

You know what....

There's something that just feels right about shootin a 45-70.....

Kinda like shootin yer favorite 06', or a colt 1911, or that sweet little SxS 20 ga.....

But heck, mebbe that's just me.....

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #15 on:** October 20, 2006, 07:59:03 AM »

Quote

Out of the box, the .450 out performs the other two hands down.

Not if one box says Marlin on it and the other says Buffalo Bore or Grizzly.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2006, 08:40:38 AM »

Quote from: Echo4Lima on October 19, 2006, 04:45:51 AM

Out of the box, the .450 out performs the other two hands down. However, the price for the non-handloader is a "bit" high and the ammo scarce. That has to be taken into account. I do see the Hornady boxes regularly in gun stores. I'm still surprised that after reading about other ammo makers making .450, I still havent seen any of it out there. Only the Hornady and one of the specialty makers.

Echo4Lima –

Loaded to similar pressures, the 450-70 has the performance edge. It also has the edge in ammo availability and variety. Here’s something I posted recently in another thread (http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,95682.0.html):

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I checked availability and pricing for the 450 and .45-70 ammo at four places – Midway, Conley Precision, Garrett and Buffalo Bore. (I could easily have gone to places like Cabelas and picked up some more .45-70 ammo, but they only list the 450 Marlin Hornady 350g FP ammo.)

The Hornady LE (LeverEvolution) ammunition for the .45-70 at 2050fps is within 50fps of the original Hornady 450 FP ammuniltion at 2100fps and delivers better downrange ballistics. And in this sample the .45-70 LE ammo was cost $5 less expensive. The new 450 LE ammunition puts the 450 somewhat ahead of the .45-70 with LE ammo but game would have a hard time telling the difference.

Once we step away from the Hornady LE ammo and performance, the advantage of the .45-70 begins to show up – a much wider range of ammo choices and availability, from inexpensive cowboy loads at $13.29 per box to Garrett 500g Exiter ammo at $180 per box.

Let’s see…
Midway offers TWENTY-ONE .45-70 loads and TWO 450 loads.
Buffalo Bore offers FIVE .45-70 loads and TWO 450 loads.
Conley Precision offers ELEVEN .45-70 loads and EIGHT 450 loads.
Garrett offers FIVE .45-70 loads and NO 450 loads.

One might also notice that the Buffalo Bore 300g Speer Uni-Cor load at 2350fps is faster than any 450 load except the Conley 250g Barnes XFN, also at 2350fps but with a lighter bullet. The Buffalo Bore load is a tad less expensive.

If you want bullets like the 300g Partition, 350g A-Frame or Speer 350g FP or 350g Woodleigh Weld-Core, or any bullet in the 460g weight or up, the .45-70 is the only choice.

450 Marlin @ Midway
$25.99 Hornady 350g LeverEvolution Elastomer Tip (Midway USA)
$28.99 Hornady 350g FP (Midway USA)

450 Marlin @ Buffalo Bore
$47.29 405 gr. JFN. (1975 fps / M.E. 3507 ft. lbs.) (Buffalo Bore)
$48.29 430 gr. LBT-LFN (1900 fps /M.E. 3446 ft. lbs. (Buffalo Bore)

450 Marlin @ Conley Precision
$28.06 450 Marlin 300 Gr. HP , 2290fps
$28.80 450 Marlin 405g JFP, 1980fps
$29.66 450 Marlin 350 Gr. Hornady Interlock , 2080fps
$37.94 450 Marlin 300 Gr. Nosler Partition , 2270fps
$43.10 450 Marlin 300g Barnes Original FP, 2250fps
$43.58 450 Marlin 400g Barnes Original FP, 1950fps
$46.45 450 Marlin 250g Barnes XFN, 2350fps
$46.45 450 Marlin 300g Barnes XFN, 2200fps

450 Marlin @ Garrett
None

.45-70 @ Midway USA
$13.29 American Ammunition 45-70 Government 405 Grain Lead Flat Nose Box of 20
$19.99 Lancer Ammunition 45-70 Government 405 Grain Lead Round Nose Flat Point Box of 20
$21.99 Ultramax Ammunition 45-70 Government 405 Grain Lead Round Nose Flat Point Box of 20
$22.99 Goex Black Dawge Blackpowder Ammunition 45-70 Government 405 Grain Lead Flat Nose Box of 20
$23.49 Hornady LEVERevolution Ammunition 45-70 Government 325 Grain Elastomer Flex Tip Box of 20
$24.99 Black Hills Cowboy Action Ammunition 45-70 Government 405 Grain Lead Round Nose Flat Point Box of 20
$24.99 Remington Express Ammunition 45-70 Government 300 Grain Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 20
$24.99 Remington Express Ammunition 45-70 Government 405 Grain Jacketed Soft Point Box of 20
$28.49 Federal Power-Shok Ammunition 45-70 Government 300 Grain Speer Hot-Cor Soft Point Box of 20
$28.99 Winchester Super-X Ammunition 45-70 Government 300 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 20
$39.99 Goex Black Dawge Pinnacle Blackpowder Ammunition 45-70 Government 405 Grain Lead Flat Nose Box of 20
$40.99 Buffalo Bore Ammunition 45-70 Government Magnum Levergun 350 Grain Jacketed Flat Nose Box of 20
$40.99 Buffalo Bore Ammunition 45-70 Government Magnum Levergun 405 Grain Jacketed Flat Nose Box of 20
$41.99 Buffalo Bore Ammunition 45-70 Government Magnum Levergun 430 Grain Lead Long Flat Nose Box of 20
$46.99 Grizzly Ammunition 45-70 Government +P 405 Grain Cast Performance Lead Wide Long Nose Gas Check Box of 20
$46.99 Grizzly Ammunition 45-70 Government +P 420 Grain Cast Performance Lead Wide Long Nose Gas Check Box of 20
$46.99 Grizzly Ammunition 45-70 Government +P 460 Grain Cast Performance Lead Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Box of 20
$48.99 Grizzly Ammunition 45-70 Government +P 350 Grain Hawk Bonded Core Jacketed Flat Point Box of 20
$48.99 Grizzly Ammunition 45-70 Government +P 350 Grain Hawk Bonded Core Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 20
$48.99 Grizzly Ammunition 45-70 Government +P 405 Grain Hawk Bonded Core Jacketed Flat Point Box of 20
$51.99 Buffalo Bore Ammunition 45-70 Government Magnum Levergun 500 Grain Full Metal Jacket Flat Nose Box of 20

.45-70 @ Conley precision
$24.99 45/70 Government (Marlin) 405 Gr. JFP , 1900fps
$27.08 45/70 Government (Marlin) 300 Gr. HP , 2100fps
$27.08 45/70 Government (Marlin) 350 Gr. Hornady Interlock , 1970fps
$34.50 45/70 Government (Marlin) 300 Gr. Nosler Partition , 2100fps
$38.87 45/70 Government (Marlin) 460 Gr. Cast Performance WFN GC , 1725fps
$38.97 45/70 Government (Marlin) 420 Gr. Cast Performance WLN GC , 1950fps
$43.54 45/70 Government (Marlin) 250 Gr. Barnes XFN , 2200fps
$43.54 45/70 Government (Marlin) 300 Gr. Barnes X FN 2100fps
$46.66 45/70 Government (Marlin) 300 Gr. Barnes Original FP , 2100fps
$46.66 45/70 Government (Marlin) 400 Gr. Barnes Original FP , 1900fps
$56.46 45/70 Government (Marlin) 400 Gr. Swift A-Frame , 1900fps

.45-70 @ Buffalo Bore
$46.19 430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)
$45.14 300gr. Speer Uni Core @ 2350 fps (3678 ft. lbs.)
$45.14 405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)
$45.14 350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3592 ft. lbs.)
$56.69 500 gr. FMJFN (1625 fps /M.E. 2931 ft. lbs.)

.45-70 @ Garrett
$55.00 420-GR SUPERHARDCAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1650-FPS
$55.00 420-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1850-FPS
$55.00 540-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1550-FPS
$65.00 350-GR WOODLEIGH WELD-CORE JSP AT 2000-FPS
$180.00 500-GRAIN SPEER TUNGSTEN SOLID AT 1530-FPS

While the situation with 450 factory ammo options and availability is slowly improving, especially with the Buffalo Bore and Conley offerings, the .45-70 retains a significant advantage in these areas.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Any questions?

GAWI · « **Reply #17 on:** October 26, 2006, 11:59:10 AM »

I have the .450. Really enjoy it. I have a trapdoor 45-70 but have not shot it. I do my oun reloading, any odd cal. and you need to reload your oun. Picked up a 50-70, shells were 80.00 for 20. Reloading is the way to go. As for choice, whatever, there about the same on balistics.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #18 on:** October 27, 2006, 04:55:12 PM »

I agree with da guy what said buy da one dat you like da fit and da trigger pull.

Just look at my Avitar. That's the one that I bot. It's a 45-70. I was loading some 350 grainer Hornady's with H335. It let you know when you pulled the trigger.

I then went to loading a lead cast performance 405 grain over varget. Much softer recoil. I have a Williams peep sight in this gun, and it will hold 3" or less from a bench at 100 yards with the cast performance bullets. It is fun to shoot.

I reload it with a Redding neck size die...FWIW.

Dave

airborne-ranger · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2006, 02:37:05 AM »

the 45-70 wins hands down i my book

wild bill

airborne-ranger · « **Reply #20 on:** November 02, 2006, 02:39:48 AM »

the 45-70 wins hands down i my book

wild bill

RicMic · « **Reply #21 on:** November 04, 2006, 03:45:47 PM »

I had both the 45-70 and 444, shot factory loads and home brew. I liked the 444 better and prolly would have kept it if it had the new rifling (1 in 20" Ballard instead of the old 1 in 38" MicroGroove). Flexability in reloading made the 444 something you could use in the lower 48. The Marlin 45-70 is great, I just have more use for the 444. BTW, I'm now using a Marlin 1894 in 44 MAG and am thinking of the 444 again, that new rifling......oh yeah - the 444 is my pick.

dawei · « **Reply #22 on:** November 09, 2006, 08:07:00 AM »

Although not as popular; I too would go with the 444. Big enough to handle anything in the lower 48 & a lot easier on the shoulder than the 45/70. I have a circa 1988 444SS with the 1:38" Microgroove®; it handles, 240, 265, 270, 290 (Cast), & 300gr bullets with ease. It has become my go to 'Black Timber' rifle.

Echo4Lima · « **Reply #23 on:** November 24, 2006, 05:32:32 PM »

Mac 11700 Out of the Red Hornady box...

Cottonwood · « **Reply #24 on:** November 25, 2006, 01:13:11 AM »

Iffin ya got the pocket book for it, get both the .444 Marlin and the tried and true 45-70. Then you can shoot both and decide which one or keep'em both

nomosendero · « **Reply #25 on:** November 25, 2006, 05:08:27 PM »

Quote from: Echo4Lima on November 24, 2006, 05:32:32 PM

Mac 11700 Out of the Red Hornady box...

I am glad that I don't care what color my ammo boxes are!

Gunjunkie · « **Reply #26 on:** November 25, 2006, 05:41:46 PM »

In reality it don't matter what you get first, cause Marlinitus is contagious and you will keep getting more and more till you have them all anyway..

Cottonwood · « **Reply #27 on:** November 26, 2006, 05:26:26 PM »

I'm purchasing a lever action 45-70 on my next purchase.....

1895 with its 22" barrel or the 1895 CB with its 26" barrel

either way it will be a 45-70. Personally I have to see if its any worse than my Rolling Block in 45-90 to shoot, my shoulders aint what they used to be.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #28 on:** November 27, 2006, 06:10:51 AM »

I would loose the factory pad and install a good Limsaver for the regular 1895...and would get a small Galco leather slip on pad for the CB...I've had both...and used both...You shoulder will thank you if you use them...

Mac

millwright · « **Reply #29 on:** December 03, 2006, 09:20:45 AM »

I have the 444 with the 1:20 twist and 22 inch barrel. I have only shot factory loads at this point, but I really like the gun. I have never owned a 45-70, but I am sure they are a great gun also. I have just got set to reload, I bought H4895 and the hornady 265gr. I also plan to try some cast around the 300 gr level. I replaced the sights with the williams peep and the front fire sight.