Does this bother anyone else ?

[sts-g3]

http://www.wndu.com/news/102006/news_53241.php


South Bend, IN - Thousands of students in the South Bend school district signed a pledge October 18 vowing to stay away from guns.
More than 600 students filled the auditorium at Edison Intermediate Center.
Mayor Steve Lueke, officers of the South Bend Police Department, and a member of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms asked the students to make a pledge to stay away from guns warning them violence is never a good answer.
“Unfortunately a lot of society still thinks that's the way to resolve things and it's going to take good strong leadership from our parents and our community leaders to try and get the message across and try to make a real difference,” explains South Bend Superintendent Dr. Robert Zimmerman.
More than 20,000 South Bend students pledged to stay away from guns





This is very close to where I used to live before moving to college. This kinda of thing scares me.

[EsoxLucius]

How about a pledge to approach gun ownership and use responsibly?

[Greysky]

How about telling the kiddies to keep their grungy little mitts off all potentially deadly weapons unless their is a responsible adult present to properly supervise them?

Oh, it momentarily slipped my mind. This wouldn't be politically correct. Better to instill a lifetime phobia about "those evil gun things" into the impressionable minds of young people than to actually take the time to teach them to be morally responsible human beings.

[CallaoJoe]

They may as well sign off on drivin cars, eatin french fries, and drinkin Coca-Cola while they're at it....... 

These things kill more people than people mis-using guns.....

[Greysky]

Oh, I forgot to mention that playing dodge ball, and tag either has been, or will be verbotenin public schools too; if they already aren't.

This overly enthusiastic effort to "protect the kiddies" is just further confirmation that good intentions have replaced good judgment.

[doc_kreipke]

Greysky, you're clairvoyant. The following article appeared in this morning's edition of The Indianapolis Star:

ATTLEBORO, Mass. -- Officials at an elementary school south of Boston have banned kids from playing tag, touch football and any other unsupervised chase game during recess for fear they'll get hurt and hold the school liable.

Recess is "a time when accidents can happen," said Willett Elementary School Principal Gaylene Heppe, who approved the ban.

While there is no districtwide ban on contact sports during recess, local rules have been cropping up. Several school administrators around Attleboro, a city of about 45,000 residents, took aim at dodgeball a few years ago, saying it was exclusionary and dangerous.

...

[snip rest of article; bolding mine]

[stimpylu32]

Maybe we ought to have them sign a form to not use power tools , that way all the construction jobs can go to all the illegals that come here every day , these tools are a danger , just ask OSHA .

Take out all the swings and slides , they may fall and get hurt .Take out all the male and female teachers and replace them all with robots so they can not malest the kids . You can go on and on , but all this only proves that You Can't Fix Stupid

[sts-g3]

Back when I was in High school they wouldn't let us play dodgeball, floor hockey or flag football. they said after these games where to violent for a school environment.  It sucked I was excellent at playing dodgeball.

[nabob]

If I lived in a place where the schools were going to the dogs because of violence/drugs/crime, I'd have a different viewpoint on things, including guns.

I see this as students signing a pledge to not get involved with the whole gansta scene, that's all. Here in my town, there are a couple of shootings a night and every other week, someone is shot. It isn't just the bad guys killing each other, either. We've had people in their own homes, including a 2 month old baby, hit by random shots as a group rolls into a rival gang's area,  shoots up the place randomly, and peels out. What gives the gangsta power, the drug dealer a feared rep? Having a gun. If these young people are facing that, I don't think it is such a bad idea to sign such a pledge to stay away from that whole scene.

[sts-g3]

I agree if that is the case but, they could have had this pledge entail an " I will only use a firearm under the close supervision of an adult" kinda wording to make the pledge be more responsibility orientated. Not just guns are evil and should not even be looked at wording.

Firearms = Responsibility

[flamenblaster]

more than ever it has become obvious that we have two seperate countries within our borders..one that wants nothing to do with critical thinking skills, common sense, responsibility or consequences...and would rather just be left alone to whatever their desires wish..and be given what is "owed" them..saftey and security in crappy neighborhoods that they themselves have ruined do to a complete lack of initiative. the other America is those of us who work hard to pay for others neglect..dont need to be led by the nose..dont need to be told by the "authorities" what the "correct" opinion is..arent asking for or needing saftey and security that cost us our freedom..That is the America of self-determination, respect, responsibility.

[tbull55]

What ever happened to teaching your children responsibility?  It seems that alot of parents don't give a darn about "parenting" their children any more.  They would rather society raise them.  With all the PC crap going on these days, I don't want society teaching my kids anything.  I am thankful I was brought up to work hard for a living, accept responsibility for my actions and respect others (as hard as it may be sometimes).  A pledge to stay away from guns, that is just ignorant.  Some might say, "well, what they meant was stay away from gangs and drugs" and things like that.  I'm not buying it.  I believe it is exactly what they stated.  They want our children to stay away from guns.  The government wants an unarmed public, makes it easier for them to control.  This kind of stuff really pi$$es me off, o.k. I'm done now!

[DWTim]

It's probably just the slant given to it by the author, but what bothers me is that BATFE is apparently hopping on the political bandwagon. Since I wasn't actually there to listen to the lecture, I don't know what they talked about. The problem here is that this is part of the never-ending attempt to re-cast gun ownership as a moral issue. Now I could mention other hot-button moral issues that they are attempting to be re-cast as political or "lifestyle" ones, but I will refrain from doing so.

It is this kind of brainwashing that makes life tough for the peaceful, law-abiding gun culture. Last I checked, we far outnumbered the inner-city goblins, yet we all bear the responsibility for their criminal activity. They're going after guns because it is an easy political target. Anything else would violate the standards of politcal correctness. It hurts us, because the mere mention of firearms equates to a threat of violence to the brainwashed. I have to extremely careful what I say at work.

Maybe some people like being a third-class citizen in a crime-ridden socialist dystopia, but I do not.

[ggeilman]

Hey, I am a smoker. I already am a third class citizen! The problem in places like South Bend is these kids are never going to buy a gun to hunt. They are much more likely to buy it to join a gang or to commit a crime. I have zero problem with responsible gun owership. I have a problem with a 14 year old buying a gun on his/her own period! This topic does raise issues that both sides of the debate should conider though. More thought should be given to where common ground can be found and less time spent just fighting each other when many of the end goals are the same. So perhaps the NRA could try and work with the police groups to modify this to "responsible gun ownership with the presence of a responsible adult".
As far as some school districts banning tag and dodge ball, not sure this is related, but it does seem to be pretty far fetched to go to this extreme.

[Mikey]

Tbull:  I think that taking the proper course of teaching your children responsibility puts them too far ahead of the masses and gives them the ability to challenge the garbage thrown at them in schools today.  Teaching children responsibility does not necessarily make them more politically correct, as they can think for themselves.  Teaching children responsibility early in life gives them the ability to succeed beyond what the cowards and hypocrits in schools teach them today. 

Sadly, the mayor and chief of police only created 20,000 more potential hostages and terrorist victims with that approach.  I certainly hope that some of those students, who have already been taught how to think and act responsibly, refused to sign that pledge based on a set of stronger standards than what they have forced down their throats in school. 

But, let's not forget that Indiana isn't too far from Morton Grove, Ill., one of the first, if not the first city to ban either firearms or handguns.  Probably related somehow.  Just a thought.  Mikey.

[ggeilman]

It was handguns and Morton Grove is on the other side of Chicago no where near Indiana. Everyone was up in arms over it regardless of party. I remember it like it was yesterday as I am from Deerfield originally not too far from Morton Grove.

[nabob]

I agree if that is the case but, they could have had this pledge entail an " I will only use a firearm under the close supervision of an adult" kinda wording to make the pledge be more responsibility orientated. Not just guns are evil and should not even be looked at wording.

When my house is burning down, I don't care how the fire gets put out. All I care is that it is out. Same here. When under siege, as where I live is, all anyone cares about is getting kids to not pick up the guns that are freely floating around the neighborhood. Nuances are not what are required here. Making it stop, now, is. No one here is interested in yet one more talk about "responsible gun usage". It has gone WAY past that. What is needed right now in my city is to find a way to get children to not buy into the gangsta scene, not lessons on how to use a gun responsibly. This is one way and if you lived here, you might have a different take on the subject.

None of these kids are going to EVER use guns except to hurt someone else. All they see is a gun giving them power they don't now have. What's needed isn't a lecture about responsibility. They won't listen to that. What's needed is to keep them from picking up a gun and using it, as two 12 year olds did last week, to settle a score by shooting another kid in the face.

If you aren't in the middle of this type of situation, living with it every day right outside your door, you have a much different perspective about what the problem is. It is easy to talk about teaching responsibility when your child is not walking past drug dealers on the way to school, seeing that lifestyle of money and women, listening to it on the radio. Sure, some kids will be able to rise above it with the help of the parents, but dismissing this as parents not doing their job is patronizing. You try it some day. Yes, it can be done and has been. But the job is a lot tougher than armchair quarterbacks might think.

[Brett]

Nabob,  I take it then you would have no problem if they put out your kitchen fire with a bulldozer. 

It's the same line of logic as let's close down the gun manufacturers and throw all guns into the sea so that no one will ever be wrongly shot again.   Why stop at guns?  Let's ban private ownership of automobiles and swimming pools while we are at it.   Make grocery stores sell all food pre-chopped into bite-sized pieces and ban private ownership of cutlery.  Where does this stupidity end?

[Dee]

I have been retired from a job as a Tactical K-9 Sgt. for almost 13 years now, after having worked mexican gangs for the last 13 years of a 20 year career. Do I miss it? HELLLLLLLLLL NO! But in 20 years of L.E. this is what I noticed about gangs and gang violence as a general rule. Black, white, mexican, or peppermint striped. The parents sent the kids to school, and let the teachers teach them what ever they wanted to. The parents seldom if ever asked what they were learning. Give them a $20.00 bill and send them out, so they (the parents) could watch their favorite TV show and don't worry what the kid is doing until the police show up at the door. Then blame the police. You can take your streets back but, you have to get up off your butt to do it, and stop making excuses.
If the Law would start holding the parents responsible (especially financially) for what their brats do, it would slow down. But, you have lawyers making the laws so that's a problem.
Teachers are quiting the profession all over the country because of the lack of support from the parents. These kids COULDN'T be out shootin up the neighborhood if the parents would TAKE CHARGE of the family like they're supposed to.
I agree with Brett, but lets take another tack. Turn the TV OFF, TAKE THE CAR, TRASH THE VIOLENT VIDEO GAMES, AND BAN THE GANGSTA CRAP I MEAN RAP from the house. PERIOD! Young girls and boys today go to school and town and yes, church, dressed like prostitutes, unmade beds, or like they are going to a holloween costume party. And parents buy the clothes. They (the kids) are immatating what they see at home or TV, or Videos. You know what rolls down hill. Put the responsibility where it belongs (90% of the time). The parents aren't doing their job. As far as the gun issue. They can do whatever they want about that. I made my decision on that issue long ago.JMTCW.

[nabob]

Nabob,  I take it then you would have no problem if they put out your kitchen fire with a bulldozer.

That's the problem - people viewing this as a "kitchen fire" when an entire section of the city is burning. Making the analogy that you have indicates that you are very much unaware of the extent of the problem. It is exactly this sort of minimization of the problem that allows people to make such statements as "we need responsible gun ownership". Baloney. The people with the guns didn't go through the safety courses and they aren't likely to.

Brett, it doesn't matter to the people of my city HOW it gets put out as long as it is out. You and others can worry about the implications later. What counts now is keeping our kids safe. Ban cars and swimming pools? Well, there aren't a lot of people that can afford cars in these areas. That's one of the problems that keeps them in the poverty that breeds this kind of thing - they can't get to where the jobs are. Ban swimming pools? Are you kidding? NOBODY has a swimming pool down in this neighborhood. The very fact that you bring up these examples shows you really haven't got the first clue about what's going on. If people had enough money to buy a car or put in a swimming pool, they wouldn't BE here!

You are all so enamored of guns that you can't see beyond your own prejudices. We've gone way past the time for debate about how best to do it and have gotten into "do it at any cost." My city resembles Baghdad some days, with sirens all night long and people being shot up randomly. And you think that "let's talk about responsible gun usage" or "let's blame the parents" is going to make any difference? That's bringing a cupful of water to the fire. Won't make any difference.

I love the "blame the parents" routine. Great. Now that you've got that off your chest and have pointed the finger of blame, do you now feel better? If we can find fault in the people themselves, then we've managed to absolve ourselves of having to do anything about it, right? And since the people themselves are maybe black or Hispanic, well, so much the better. Now we've confirmed for ourselves that it is their own fault for being the way they are down there and we can wash our hands of the problem.

I heard Bill Bennett say about Baghdad that the first thing any successful society must have is an exclusive control on violence, that unless the government can provide a secure environment, it will fail. Everything flows from that first need - security. I wish he'd talk to the people in my city government. You all are outsiders, telling people how to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, how it is all their own fault, how bad a job they've done parenting, blah blah blah. Try living and bringing up a child in this environment, when you are working three jobs at minimum wage to try to make ends meet for the family (when you can FIND a  job) and get off your high horses. We need to find a solution NOW, not make ourselves feel good about being superior.

[Dee]

Well, I tell ya what. I have three kids all grown and 8 grandchildren. So I know a little about raising kids. When my kids said they wanted to go some where THEY ASKED PERMISSION FIRST. Then if given permission to go they went with the full knowledge that I might just show up to make sure they were where they said they were, AND if they were with whom they said they were with. IT'S CALLED PARENTING! Do you think your neighborhood is the only one that has problems? I worked kids that would kill you over a pair of tennis shoes, or a perceived insult. I worked kids that done drivebys on houses where they didn't even know who lived there. So I'm cluesless? I don't think so.
How did I keep my kids out of this mele of drugs, gangs, and drive bys. Control of the home AND "ENFORCEMENT" OF THE RULES THERE.
Parents AREN'T taking an active role in their kids lives, they ARE leaving the raising to the schools and TVs and Video games, and when they get into trouble they blame someone else and have a PITY PARTY for themselves.
As we are finding out in Iraq, revolution comes from within, and cannot be imported. Parents need to be HELD RESPONSIBLE and if they refuse then a system needs to be implemented which will encourage them to FIND OUT WHAT THEIR KIDS ARE DOING.
I have been in some ruff neighborhoods, and served warrants in SOUTH DALLAS in Tx. I doubt yours is any worse.
As far as your city being like Bagdad. What a crock! I have a 22 year old Son who is a SGT. with the 82nd Airborne who just got back from there and before that he was in Afganistan. With my own experince as a tactical officer (retired) and his description of Afganistan and Iraq, (he fought in Bagdad, Tequrit, and others) I hardly think your town resembles Bagdad.
As far as high horses and jobs. Police pay is legendary for being low. The first 5 years of my career I qualified for wel-fare in my state. Did I apply? Hell no, I went out and found part time jobs. I drove a truck on weekends, I worked security, and ran a home gunsmithing business, AND STILL FOUND TIME RAISE KIDS. PLUS! I was on call 24 hours a day for swat and K-9.
Your solution is to quit whinning, get your neighborhood involved, talk to city goverment, report crime you see, FIND OUT WHAT YOUR KIDS ARE DOING if you have any, OR MOVE. This is not a gun control issue anyway. It's a not getting involved issue, where everybody sits back, complains, and waits for someone else to do it. As far as placing the blame? When kids are shooting up your neighborhood, WHERE ARE THE PARENTS? WELL???
By the way. In the very first post of this topic, Zimmerman the superintendent of the school in question, said the same thing. "PARENTS" AND COMMUNITY LEADERSHIP are going to HAVE TO GET INVOLVED. The ATF used the opportunity for recognition as pro-actrive. Just what we need. More goverment in schools, instead of parents doing their job. JM3CW

[nabob]

I don't think you know squat about raising kids in the environment I'm speaking of. You don't live in the neighborhoods you police. What you do is come in, blame people, and leave to go back to your nice safe neighborhood someplace else. Unless you lived here and tried to raise kids here, you ARE clueless.

All you are doing is patting yourself on the back and saying that if you could do it, anyone could.

Albert Einstein discovered the theory of relativity. Hey, if he could do it, anyone could, right?

And when you are done feeling superior about how wonderful a parent you are and how that can solve everything, ask yourself what good you've done to solve this mess. Besides blaming people for their own problems, you haven't done anything useful at all. All that allows you to do is wash your hands of the problem and walk away with a clear conscience.

Folks like you ARE the problem.

[Dee]

I don't feel superior. I did live in the same neighborhood I policed. I just kept up with my kids instead of dumping them off on society, and running around hollering the sky is falling. Once again I ask the question. When the kid is doing a drive by. WHERE IS THE PARENT DRIVING THE CAR SO THE KID CAN SHOOT? When the kid is dealing drugs on the corner. WHERE IS THE PARENT BEING THE LOOKOUT?  When the kid is skipping school. WHERE IS THE PARENT DRIVING THEM TO THE LIQUOR STORE? As I said in my last post. Even the superintendent said PARENTS NEED TO GET ACTIVE.
Perhaps what we really need is more goverment. Yea, I'll bet that would solve everything. God forbid we take responsiblity for what our kids are doing.
You tell me, people like me are the problem.  I say people like me go out and clean up people like you's messes. People like me supervise your kids while people like you sit at home and have a pity party on the internet. I say people that don't take responsibility for their own kids is the problem. Stand up! Say I'm mad as hell and ain't gonna take it anymore. Get something going in your neighborhood. If it's as bad as you say, surely others are tired of it too.
I know some kids are gonna turn out bad no matter what. But most are unsupervised by THEIR PARENTS!
If your city has a ride-a-long program for the police dept. Go sign up, and find out who is more Polyanna. Me or you. Get in the patrol car and see the attitude of the parents when their kid gets busted.
This is not rocket science, it's lack of moral parenting.

[nabob]

People who enjoy blaming others for not living up to their standards ARE part of the problem, Dee. People with smug, self-righteous and superior attitudes don't lift a finger to help and then scoot back to nice safe neighborhoods to tut tut about "those people". Yeah, parents need to get active but guess how many families in my neighborhood have a two parent family? One is usually in jail and the other is holding on best as she can. And those with attitudes of moral superiority blame everything on the one left around to try to raise the kids?

It is easy to condemn when one doesn't have to actually deal with these problems. The view from on high must seem pretty clear. Down where the rubber meets the road, things are bit tougher. Try walking a mile in someone else's moccasins before condemning them. And if the reaction is "I was there and I made it out" then how about sparing the time for two thoughts:

1) Not everyone has the same strengths or advantages as everyone else and
2) Blaming the parents only allows one to assuage one's conscience for not doing anything to help change the situation.

[Dee]

Nabob. How involved could I have been? I worked gangs for 13 years. I wasn't a counselor. I was a tact officer ON THE STREET. I know everyone is not the same. HOWEVER, the problem is the parents are not stepping up. I ACTUALLY DELT with these problems EVERYDAY for 20 years. I'm the guy who rolled around on the ground with a 17 year old trying to take his StarFire away from him before he shot me. Trust me. That's pretty involved. 15 or 20 people that lived in the neighborhood stood on the curb and cheered me on, but know one came to help until I was able to hit my remote and punch my dog out of the car. He helped.
This is a social problem no doubt, but its like you said. Some of the parents are in jail. When I would come home at night my wife would ask if I was involved in something on the news or in the paper, and then say boy, those gangs are something else aren't they. My reply was always. WAIT TILL YOU SEE THEIR KIDS.
We have to place the blame where MOST OF IT BELONGS, on the parents. Think of it. If every parent said; You know what? This Saturday, I am not going to let my kids go out. It would be a pretty quite Saturday huh? When you have an unruly child you bust his butt. When you have a unruly teenager, you kick his ass, and tell him there's more where that came from. If your no hoss enough to do it, CHEAT, or call the police. America is turning upside down because Americans are pre-occupied with being entertained. It's too much trouble to entertain your own kids. Let someone else do it, and then complain. I taught my three that if you want your business taken care of right, do it yourself. If you let someone else do it, they'll screw it up, and you'll be the one to loose. One of them has figured this out. The other two constantly stumble because they don't take care of their own business. This country has let a bunch  of yoyos run its' business the same way. They haven't taken care of our business and now look where we are. Parenting is the same way. By the way. I don't enjoy pointing this out. I don't like gangs, drugs, theives, murderers or child molesters any more than you. I once suggest to an Lt. that the answer might be doing our own drive bys. We were better shots. This was after they did a drive by on us. This opinion is coming from hands on for 20 years. JM4CW

[nabob]

PART of the problem is the parents.

There is a LOT more to it than just blaming the parents. Blaming them allows people to wash their hands of the problem with a clear conscience.

What does being a cop have anything to do with solving the problems? You guys show up to sweep up the mess these jerks make down here. Great, but how exactly does that help keep the mess from happening in the first place? It doesn't. The same thing people say about the police when discussing the Second Amendment (that they don't keep anyone safe, they just take the reports from the survivors) is true here as well. Coming down here to put the arm on someone doesn't do a thing to change the situation. We live here 24/7. When you guys leave, the folks down here are still here and so are guys that you didn't take with you when you rode back out of the neighborhood. The drugs are still here, the rest of the gang is still here, the pros are still here, the jobs are not here, the hopelessness and helplessness is still right where it always was.

And if a teen-aged boy standing 6 feet tall wants to go out and hang with his buddies and maybe get into trouble, you expect a 130 lbs. woman to stand in his way?

Cops with big attitudes, that look down their noses at the people they serve aren't going to get a lot of respect, so don't expect anyone to jump off the curb to help you. No one I knew of didn't have a story to tell about being mistreated by the police and it became pretty clear pretty fast that we were viewed as nothing more than animals by the constabulary. You expect help when you don't give any respect? The reaction, while as unfortunate as the attitudes the police often have, is understandable.

The problem is a lot bigger than you seem to think and blaming the parents is just another way for people to let themselves off the hook for helping clear up the problem. It involves stupid welfare programs that lead to illegitimacy, drugs in a flood, pros sticking juice in their arms, winos sleeping in their own vomit, burnt out houses where the crackheads live on pissy mattresses, broken glass and nothing to look forward to except more of the same. So kids see that they can have a little power and respect, maybe, and maybe a little money, too, and belong to something bad and they join the gangs. You come down here and leave. Folks down here walk past that every stinking day. And it is all the parent's fault if the kid turns out bad?

Give me a break.

It isn't all the parent's fault. Putting the entire blame on them is just another way to absolve one's self from having to do anything.

I got lucky. I had a few more advantages than some of the folks and found my way out. I don't live there anymore, so I shouldn't use the present tense when discussing this. For that, I'm profoundly grateful.

[Brett]

Your right Nabob, It's not all the parents faults.
They can share the blame with a government that pays capable individuals to sit at home and do nothing.
They can also share the blame with their neighbors who tern a blind eye toward mischievous kids instead of calling the law or just grabbing the younger ones by the neck and dragging them home to their parents where they should receive a sound beating.  In the neighborhood I grew up in everyone 'policed" each others children and either set them straight themselves or reported their misdeeds to their parents who then dealt with them.  And the parents were grateful for their neighbors intervention instead of getting all up in their faces and defending their brats.
They can also share the blame with an education system that teaches to the lowest common denominator or just pushes students through whether they have learned anything or not.
They can also share the blame with organizations like the ACLU and NAACP that tell them that they don't need to be responsible for themselves because the world owes them a free ride just because they are _______. Fill in the blank with whatever nationality or group that you would like.
I'm sure there is plenty more blame to go around but it all comes down to individuals are responsible for their own actions whether it be saying no to drugs, raising their own children, earning a living, staying out of trouble with the law, etc.  No one can do these things for them they must do it themselves.   

Would removing guns solve all of the troubles in you old neighborhood?  If guns were not available do you think these little darlings might just pick up a knife, a piece of chain, a ball bat or a brick?   You blame crime on the lack of jobs.  Why do you suppose it is that there are no businesses in these neighborhoods for these people to find jobs at?  Could it be because the crime has driven them out?

I used the swimming pools and automobiles analogies because both account for more injuries and deaths than firearms, I wasn't implying that the people we are speaking of own them or not.  I was pointing out the absurdity of blaming inanimate objects for doing harm to people.

Nabob, Since you accuse us of living in our own little Camalott, tell us what are you doing to change things in your old neighborhood?   Oh... that's right your sitting at home on your computer pointing the blame on evil guns to anyone who will listen.   

[nabob]

They can also blame racism that keeps them getting a decent job. That's the big 800 lbs. gorilla that folks don't want to admit to.

They can also blame the flight of money out of the city, leaving them to have to cope with crumbling schools that are in war zones. Who goes to these schools? Not white kids.

There's lots of blame to go around and when you put it all on the shoulders of the parents and say "OK, yeah, 51 out of 52 cards in the deck are stacked against you but none of that matters. What counts is that you accept personal responsibility and if you aren't strong enough to overcome all that, well tough."

Does it make you feel good to be able to cast judgment about people, Brett? It is easy to say "just say no to drugs" but I'm guessing you don't live in a world where you walk past people openly dealing, right? You have a job, right? Guess what unemployment is in the part of town where I grew up? And we didn't have cars to make it out to the 'burbs where the jobs were. I know people who travel 2.5 hours on each end of the day on public transportation to piece together a few part-time minimum wage jobs with no benefits and here you are saying "just get off your lazy butt". That sort of self-righteousness shows a complete ignorance of just what folks face every day. So Mom (Dad is in jail) leaves the flat at 5:30 in the morning and doesn't get home until maybe 9 at night and you say "just work harder at raising your kids and stop whining". Great advice.

I don't think you have the first clue about just what some folks have facing them every single day.

Why are there no jobs? Because the white folks have gotten out of town, that's why. Crime moved in when those that could leave left and took their money with them. You want to blame the lack of jobs on the people who STAYED? Because they DROVE the jobs out? Man, that is the KKK talking so far as I'm concerned.

Would Jimmy pick up a knife if he didn't have a gun? I dunno. When we get drive by knifings that spray blades all over the neighborhood, I'll worry about it. If nothing else, it will be quieter.

You don't know the first thing about me, Brett, or what I'm doing in my old neighborhood, so that dog won't hunt. Unlike you and others, I'm not content just to blame the people themselves and wash my hands of the problem. Over the past years, I worked with a neighborhood organization that is involved with physical cleanup, grant writing for housing and repairs and a religious group that brings a meal to people to people who live on the streets.

Besides blame people and point fingers everywhere else so you don't have to worry your conscience about the problem, what have YOU done?

[Brett]

"Blame racism that keeps them from getting a decent job."

Try telling that one to my friend Logan, a retired VP with IBM, or my friend Kathy, a marketing excec. with Bell South, or George, who owns and operates two funeral homes, or my other friend George who is a maintenance foreman for another big company or His wife Fran who is a personnel trainer with another phone company.   What do they all have in common besides good jobs?  Oh yeah... they are all Blacks.     

Like I said there is plenty of blame to go around and I guess any excuse to fail is a good one if you just don't have what it takes to persevere. 

So tell me, who let the thugs and dealers move into the area to begin with?  Turning a blind eye toward criminal activity or even helping it to prosper by becoming a customer sure isn't going to make the problem go away.   You don't think there were any drugs available in my neighborhood of Brockton, MA where I grew up. You cry that the cops don't do anything or don't even show up if you do call.  Well maybe if the boys in the hood didn't throw rocks and bottles, or even take pot shots at them when they do show they might be more willing to do their job.  So why did 'Whitey' take his money and move out of the hood then if it wasn't to get away from the crime?   What makes you think that these problems are unique to black neighborhoods.  I could show you some pretty rough white neighborhoods with low unemployment, high crime rates and prolific drugs.  I believe the problem stems from peoples attitudes towards themselves and less to do with their race.  Gee, that sounds like the KKK talking doesn't it?   

And by the way you know me about as well as I know you Nabob. My wife and I volunteered our time at an inner city soup kitchen in New Brunswick, NJ. I've given Blacks and Hispanics the same employment opportunities I give anyone else.  I'm currently helping refurbish houses in low income neighborhoods and help low income families get financing to buy them.  I've bought food for homeless or needy individuals out of my own pocket.

I'm glad to help those who are willing to at least try to help themselves, but I'm not going to force my help on anyone who is content to be miserable. My conscience lets me sleep at night just fine.
 



 

[nabob]

Oh, please. Everyone has some specific example that somehow, to them, disproves a general trend. Give it a rest. Denying racism exists because you personally half a dozen successful blacks is ridiculous. Tell me how many more never made it out of the inner city. Six successful blacks and you conclude there is no racism? That IS the KKK talking.

I love the "blame the people themselves" routine. Way to go, Pilate. Wash those hands. Find an excuse that allows you to not only feel superior but also dismiss the issue and presto! Whitewashed conscience.

So who allowed the thugs to move into the area? You want to go into a complete sociology course on a discussion board? Show me where poverty exists with high concentrations of population that there isn't also a fair amount of crime. Or are you blaming the people themselves for allowing crime in their neighborhood? So not only is it their fault that they are poor, it is their fault their neighborhood is full of low lifes? What's next? Blaming them for global warming? Have you ever found ANYTHING you aren't willing to blame on the very people who are suffering?

Yeah, maybe if the guys down in the hood didn't throw rocks and bottles, the cops would come down more often. That would be great news: more racist cops that think everyone down here is a low-life scum coming down to spread their contempt of everyone around and roust people around to show how tough they are. If cops showed respect, they'd GET respect. But too many cops have the same attitudes you seem to and they, like you, become part of the problem, not the solution.

Who said this problem is unique to black neighborhoods. White, poor neighborhoods have their own problems, sure. How does that have anything to do with why black neighborhoods have problems? The Nepalese also have problems. So do the Palestinians. None of them are the subject here, either.

I figure if you are allowed to make up stuff about me, I should get a turn as well. If you don't like it, don't start it.

Based on the whitewashing your conscience seems to get on a regular basis, I can readily believe you sleep quite well.