Author Topic: New 44 mag Handi Rifle and Range report (Read 5408 times)

Wolfgang · « **Reply #30 on:** November 13, 2006, 01:53:46 PM »

Back again,

Finally I've managed to get a fairly good load for the 44. I finally got a chance to cast some more 250gr. LSWC bullets and then rather than size them I just lubed them by hand and loaded them over 22grs. of H4427. 100yard group was at just over an inch for five rounds but there was one well out of the group for some reason (I fired 6 rounds). Not bad though. My mould drops the bullets at around .433" and they appear to be just slightly out of round but the rifle didn't seem to mind. Now I have to sit down and cast up a batch and figure out a way to lube them other than pressing the lube into the groove with my fingers! I tried to get hold of some Liquid Alox but nobody had any. Maybe there is a way to use something as a cookie cutter and set the unsized bullets into some melted lube. Anyhow, thanks to all again for a great forum.

Wolfgang

jbtazgrabber · « **Reply #31 on:** November 13, 2006, 05:47:55 PM »

glad you got the bugs worked out........i quinch my bullets it cool water when i mold and it make them harder.and can shoot faster without laeding or gitting the fliers.........if you cant find the lee bullet lube the gunshop in town sells it ill get you a tube if you cannt find it neer you.....i use it on all my bullets including muzzy bullets ....sometimes it takes a couple of coats................jb

Ranger J · « **Reply #32 on:** November 14, 2006, 04:15:01 AM »

Glad to see you are beginning to get some good results as your experience has so closely followed mine. What mold are you using to cast that last batch of bullets? Not to throw cold water on it but that one flyer worries me as I have run across this same thing. I will get a combo that pleases me but will constantly get a flyer every five or six shots. These are in addition to the strays that I know I pulled off on, the ones that I say ops on as soon as I fire them. Hopefully this will not happen. Load up about fifty or so and then let us know. I had decent results from 180G XTPs with a full load of H110 but it wasn’t a load that I really wanted so I am still looking. I loaded up five 300G XTPs, heavy load of H110, crimped at the first channelure from the rear the other day. Even at that length they did not engage the riffling but I did get a decent group at fifty yards. I am not going to get excited until I run a bunch of them through the barrel. Still it would be nice to find a low speed cast load that I could shoot cheaply.
If NEF is now putting barrels out at .430 I’ll order one tomorrow…but I think I’ll wait a while and let some more of you fellows try them first. Once fooled, twice shy sort of thing
RJ.

Cottonwood · « **Reply #33 on:** November 14, 2006, 12:09:29 PM »

Greetings all its been a while posting on the H&R Forum.... Just an FYI on the matter of over board barrels for the .44 Mag. Beartooth Bullets has .432 dia bullets on hand as Marshall Stanton has told me for the Ruger Super Redhawk needs these same dia bullets.

I hope this helps.

Wolfgang · « **Reply #34 on:** November 14, 2006, 12:12:08 PM »

Hi RJ,

I'm casting with a double cavity Lyman 429421. My other .44 mould is a Lyman 429360 which has a much wider flatpoint but hasn't shot worth a hoot in anything that I've tried it in. The 429421 though is a rendition of Keiths creation and it shoots well in anything that I've used it in and great in some things. I was sizing to .431" but the last batch was not sized at all and then lubed by hand. I noticed that they seemed to be just a bit out of round but seemingly that does not matter. As for the flyer, I'm worried about that too as it was about six to eight inches or more high and out of the group but the shot felt right. I'll have to make up another batch and try it again and this time check each bullets weight and cull out the possible bad ones. I also bought a box of the 300gr. XTP's and loaded theim up with the max load of H110 that Digger had talked about and I was pleased with the group though it was still not what I think of in terms of accuracy from a rifle. I also noticed that even with the length of this round it was not near the rifling and just to check I chambered a round that had been left way long and then closed the action. The bullet was still up quite a bit from the second crimping groove. I even went so far as to use that as a dummy round and shorten it just a bit and loaded up another batch to see if that would help anything and just gave it a firm crimp into the jacket. The accuracy was about the same as crimping it in the groove no better, no worse. I'll keep playing and see what happens. I had to run to the gun store last night and pick up more powder both H110 and H4227 and after reading that Hogdons is going to quit making their version of 4227 I may have to go get a bunch more as my 629 really likes a combonation of that and a Sierra 210gr. JHP. That one shoots under 3/4" at 25yrds. off of a good rest if I do my part. I'll keep you all posted as this project progresses.

Oh, jbtazgrabber, thanks for the offer of the Liquid Alox but I can get some its just that this particular store didn't have any as they don't handle casting equipment or supplies. They have a really good stock of powder and just about everything else though and I had gone there initially to just get powder and the alox was an after thought. I've got a friend who has a small bussiness and he has some Lee Liquid Alox that I can get but again thanks for the offer.

Best to all,

Wolfgang

safetysheriff · « **Reply #35 on:** November 15, 2006, 11:42:07 AM »

i recommend you check the base of all your cast bullets before lubing them. if the base of the bullet did not fill out properly in the mold you can easily get a flyer, or two, or......

just a suggestion,

ss'

Uncle Ji · « **Reply #36 on:** November 16, 2006, 08:57:21 AM »

I don't have a 44 mag Handi but have been shooting a micro-groove barrel 1894 Marlin for 30+ years and in order to get any kind on accuracy with cast bullets from a micro-groove barrel the bullets have to be .002 larger in diameter than the barrel so with your bore at .432 you'd get better results with a .434 diameter bullet though the .433 you are currently using is deffinately a step in the right direction. There have been several group buys of 6 cavity .434 molds at castboolits.com of LEE moulds and maybe you can get together for the next group buy.

Wolfgang · « **Reply #37 on:** November 18, 2006, 11:52:27 AM »

Hello Again,

I've got a question on this rifle. I will try and post a pic of the target but no promises as I am no photographer. The question is this... I've got a really good shooting load which does all I'll ever need it to but the problem is that from a cold barrel the first shot flys about a foot high and out of the group. I thought maybe it was me but I tried four separate loads which were all the same (22.2grs of H4427, CCI 300 primer Remington Cases) All were loaded with one of the following: 250gr. LSWC sized .431", 250gr. LSWC that I hollow pointed and sized .431" then the same bullet left unsized one hollow pointed and one not. I would fire a group then then let the barrel cool and it would consistantly throw one about a foot high as I said. The photo, if I can get it to post was the unsized and hollow pointed version. Can anyone tell me why this would happen? Please let me know if you have any suggestions.

Thanks,

Wolfgang

safetysheriff · « **Reply #38 on:** November 18, 2006, 12:29:19 PM »

i recommend you fire your groups s-l-o-w-l-y, so that the barrel doesn't warm very much. more importantly: always have a DRY barrel when firing that first shot. a wet/oily bore will throw flyers.

i don't clean my barrels immaculately........leaving some powder fouling in the bore on purpose because it helps with accuracy. firing a powder-fouled bore is a BIG help with my rifles.

see if those tips help.

ss'

Wolfgang · « **Reply #39 on:** November 18, 2006, 01:21:58 PM »

The barrel was fouled and after the first round flyer, the rest of the bullets landed in a fairly tidy group. I can understand that the the first round from a cold barrel could depart from the rest of the group but a foot or more? And as far as that goes I didn't fire all that fast and I can't believe that the barrel would be able to heat up that fast to cause such a drammatic change of impact. I don't remember this happening with the jacketed bullets that I shot but then again most of those groups were so bad that it would have been hard to tell!

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #40 on:** November 18, 2006, 02:33:40 PM »

Wolfgang I understand your scratching your head and wondering what went wrong with this thing.It's a wonder that I,Fred and lot of others have any hair left at all.They can sure drive you crazy sometimes,but there still fun to hunt with.

Digger

Wolfgang · « **Reply #41 on:** November 18, 2006, 04:05:57 PM »

Digger,

I thought that some of my revolvers were temperamental! This thing is driving me nuts! I must admit that it wasn't a very far trip though.

I think that the most consistant load so far has been the one that you provided to me with the max load of H110 and the 300gr. XTP's. It's been fun playing with the thing but I'm not sure that I can keep going along burning up so much powder and lead. I may put it up for sale and try to pick up a 45-70.

JPH45 · « **Reply #42 on:** November 18, 2006, 04:45:39 PM »

Handi's are notorius for throwing the first shot from a cold barrel wild. I don't know how to tell you how to diagnose the gun, but I do wonder what primer you are using. It is possible that the primer is not up to the task (cold) change primers around. Also it sounds as though you are loading the XTP's longer than the first cannalure, perhaps in an attempt ot get closer to the lands. Forget that. Seat in the cannalure, and give the load a good crimp, consistant ignition is far more imprtant than bullet jump. This ain't no rifle cartridge, it is a pistol casrtridge and should be treated as such. 44 Mags commonly have a long jump across the cylinder and barrel throat in revolvers. Don't affect accuracy as much as you would think. Many other guns have long throats and shoot very well, the Weatherbys are just one example. Seating to the lands is not a hard fast rule. In this case by seating long, you are increasing the case volumn and altering the pressure curve. This may well be the cause of the flyer. Powders like H110/WW296, AA1680 will brun best in the 44 slightly compressed and with some good resistance that gets the powder charge burning completely.

Also, good 100 yards groups from a 44mag rifle look different than 100 yard groups from a 308. 2" is quite good. The measure of a good 44 Mag rifle group is not how small but how consistant. If your load will always put 5 shots in 2" you have a very good rifle. !" groups will be more the exception than the rule. Remember, this is a hunting rifle, not a bench rifle. A different set of rules apply.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #43 on:** November 19, 2006, 11:36:47 AM »

your powder, H-4227, is relatively slow for a pistol powder. maybe you ought to try a somewhat faster powder like Alliant 2400 or maybe even IMR HiSkor-800X. work up a load with either one, using standard primers in both loads.

regardless, i can tell you that i've seen rifles shooting first-round flyers tamed with proper loads.

keep trying,

ss'

Ranger J · « **Reply #44 on:** November 20, 2006, 03:55:34 AM »

You know that 1-foot flyer out of a cold barrel while hunting would probably ruin your whole hunt. I just don’t have any faith in this barrel putting every shot where it is supposed. It is one thing to be shooting at paper and having the luxury of warming the barrel up and then nursing decent groups out of it and it is another thing to be setting in a cold deer stand for three hours and seeing the deer of a lifetime out in front of you and having the first shot go

After all I keep hearing that these guns are hunting guns. Stick the darn thing in the closet and get the 45/70. Mine came out of the box shooting great. If I could find a .44 barrel that shot decent I would probably wear it out, as it seems to be the perfect compromise. It would be cheap to shoot and still have the ump to take deer size game consistently. These barrels just aren’t cutting it!

RJ

Wolfgang · « **Reply #45 on:** November 24, 2006, 03:03:05 PM »

I know that I am just about ready to give up on this thing. I say that and then it does something to make me feel better. I was out with it again today and the same thing started to go on. I had four different loads with faster powder, W231, Unique, Universal, and I started to shoot. The loads were all near max execept for the last one I tried which was a relitivly light load (10gr.) of Unique. All were loaded with my cast 250 gr. LSWC and all loads used CCI 300 primers. I shot each load in a five round group and had nothing but vertical stringing with each. First shot very high, next down from that, next down some more and so on. It was starting to get comical. Between each course of fire I let the gun sit and the barrel cool and then back to shooting another group. I then got to my last group with the 10 gr. Unique loads which were really loaded to shoot out of one of my handguns as a moderate 44mag load and the first three shots landed one right on top of another at 100 yards.

The next two hit about 3 inches below the first three and right next to each other. I have to start believing that with anything much hotter than a mouse fart load that the barrel heats up much more quickly than I would think and the vertical stringing starts. When running hot loads of slow burning powder the first shot strayed high then the next four would hit point of aim. With the hotter loads of quick burning powders there was almost a perfect vertical string. With the lighter load of Unique the first three were touching about 3 inches high at 100 yards and as I said the last two were down at the point of aim.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #46 on:** November 24, 2006, 03:08:42 PM »

Have you checked to see if the latch or latch shelf has oil on them? Try it dry if they're oily.

Tim

Wolfgang · « **Reply #47 on:** November 24, 2006, 03:12:26 PM »

Thanks Tim,

I'll have to check this. Not that I really want to show my ignorance but why would this have such an effect?

Wolfgang

quickdtoo · « **Reply #48 on:** November 24, 2006, 03:20:25 PM »

An oily latch can cause vertical stringing, but it's also been reported by some that oil on the latch will cure vertical stringing....so try it the other way, which ever is the case!! H&R gunsmiths will tell you to shoot it dry, that's the way it was designed, it's the number one complaint from them for the cause of inaccuracy, with a very simple cure, dry the latch.

Tim

safetysheriff · « **Reply #49 on:** November 24, 2006, 04:02:23 PM »

i think that 'quick' is on to something. but....besides the oily latch i learned that Handi's need to be closed energetically without worrying about stretching or hurting the frame or barrel. i take the forearm off the rifle, remove the barrel and lube the hinge pin and extractor/ejector housing with a good grease and then close the barrel to fire the rifle with a good amount of strength on it.

that has helped my accuracy.

ss'

quickdtoo · « **Reply #50 on:** November 24, 2006, 05:46:16 PM »

ss makes a good point too, closing the action the same way and firmly each time will insure consistent lock up.

Another issue is trigger pull, due to the transfer bar, the trigger must be pulled fully to the rear at the break, if you don't, the firing pin strikes may be inconsistent which can lead to inaccuracy and possible vertical stringing. Just something to be aware of.

Tim

Wolfgang · « **Reply #51 on:** November 25, 2006, 06:12:51 AM »

Thanks Quick and Safetysheriff,

I'm getting ready to take off to the range right now. I'll try these tips as well as running a few more loads through it and see what happens. If I can keep the first three shots to the same point of aim I'll be happy with that. This is basically a walking around rifle that I want to use for just kicking about and I don't think that I'll ever really have an occasion to fire more than three shots at anything in a row anyways. We'll see how it does today and I'll let you all know the outcome. I hate all the headaches that the thing has caused but every time I pick it up I'm in love with the overall size, length and weight of it. It's... well it's handy!

Best,

Wolfgang

Wolfgang · « **Reply #52 on:** November 25, 2006, 07:00:59 PM »

Well I finally got back to the computer. Had to go shopping with my wife after getting home from the range.

I think I've got it good enough to suit me. A load of 12.5 grains of Unique and a 250 grain LSW sparked by a CCI 300 primer. It will keep three shots within an inch and a half at 100 yards if I do my part and then let everything cool off for about ten minutes. That will work for what I need. I chronographed the load and it averages 1570fps with a extreme spread of only 16fps so it doesn't get much more consistent than that.

Another plus was while I was at the range the friend of mine that owns it and also runs a little gun store and also a fur trading business gave me a twenty gauge barrel for the handi. Said he picked it up with some other things and I'm the only one he knows that has a handi. I want to thank everyone for their time and advise on how to get this thing to shoot. I think I will still play some more but I at least have a load that I can hit something with. Next up is a 45-70 I think!

Best to All,

Wolfgang

quickdtoo · « **Reply #53 on:** November 25, 2006, 07:16:57 PM »

That's great to hear!!

Tim

Ranger J · « **Reply #54 on:** November 26, 2006, 04:38:14 AM »

Glad to hear you have got it shooting well. I can understand the attraction of a single shot .44 mag and that is what keeps me tinkering with mine. I haven’t found that ‘magic’ cast lode for mine yet although it does shoot Hornady 180G and 300g bullets reasonably well. My problem is that I don’t cast so I now have several about a thousand Laser cast bullets that this barrel won’t shoot well and I can not shot in my Deerfield. I guess I can keep all my friends with lever action .44s and wheel guns in shooting material.
RJ

nomosendero · « **Reply #55 on:** November 26, 2006, 07:41:19 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on November 24, 2006, 03:20:25 PM

An oily latch can cause vertical stringing, but it's also been reported by some that oil on the latch will cure vertical stringing....so try it the other way, which ever is the case!! H&R gunsmiths will tell you to shoot it dry, that's the way it was designed, it's the number one complaint from them for the cause of inaccuracy, with a very simple cure, dry the latch.

Tim

For some weird reason I believe I would run with what the NEF guys have felt was best from the beginning.
They have not wavered on this subject & I tend to believe them over some arm chair guy in Cleveland or somewhere.

Wolfgang · « **Reply #56 on:** November 26, 2006, 04:22:37 PM »

Hello again,

I spoke too soon! The darn thing is now opening up its groups with the above load.

Not horrible but not as good as yesterday. Can't tinker with it anymore as Gun season for deer opens up in the morning. Can't use the handi for deer in Ohio anyway. I'll try it again with the S&W 629 and if that goes well I'll take the second one with either the Redhawk in 45 Colt or I'll use my Savage 10 ML.

Catch you all later,

Wolfgang

Wolfgang · « **Reply #57 on:** December 02, 2006, 01:29:35 PM »

Hello Again Everyone,

Well I concluded my deer season this morning at 8:40 A.M. This post is not really about the Handi but since I've been conversing with you guys electronically I just thought I'd let you know about this deer season. It was a typical Ohio season with day one being in the mid fifties and sunny as was day two but it got up to the mid sixties. Wednesday brought clouds and rain but still warm weather and then Thursday cooled down a little with heavy (about three inches) of rain. Friday the winds started to blow at a constant 30 to 40MPH with the occasional 50 to 60MPH gusts. It's now Saturday and the morning started out at a balmy 22 degrees and then it got really hot(35 degrees

) As for the season, my brother took a button buck on opening day with a shotgun, on Tuesday he shot a doe again a shotgun, his daughter shot a doe also with a shotgun and I shot a doe with my Savage 10 ML, all within about one half hour from each other. The doe that I harvested was at a measured 207 yards. My brother witnessed the shot and could not believe that it could be made. When we dressed the deer I found the Hornady 45 caliber 240 grain Mag XTP just under the hide on the off side of the deer. I will try and get a picture of it to post as it was truly amazing performance out of a bullet designed for a handgun. The thing looked as if it had been fired into test media and recovered for use in an add. My brother told me that I should send a picture or the bullet to Hornady and see if they wanted to use it. Finally we get to this morning and 8:40 A.M. I really wanted to take one with a nice set of antlers but as it is there are way too many does and when I was presented with a walking broadside shot at about 40 yards I took another doe with the S&W 629 .44 mag revolver. Seasons over for me as we have a two deer limit in my part of the state and I couldn't use anymore than that anyhow.

Sorry to be so long winded but it was a good season and I wanted to share. The 200+ yard doe is the one closest to the camera.

Best to all,

Wolfgang