Author Topic: i hate to stir the witches pot  (Read 2281 times)

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Offline joshco84

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i hate to stir the witches pot
« on: October 20, 2006, 06:31:29 PM »
i am just curious on a personal level since i just replied to the post about our current postition in iraq, what are the differences in opinions between age groups on our position/standing in iraq.   what i am asking is what is your standing and how do you think your beliefs are now or will be in say twenty years or vise versa. i understand that for a young man like myself it is easy to talk big and walk soft, but how about from some of the older men who used to maybe do the same??  like my subject says i hate to stir the pot, but i wonder how some of you felt at my age and how you are feeling now. 

p.s. i would really appreciate the replys in this guys

thanks a lot

josh
Smells like country, Tastes like rock and roll...... Want to find out more??? www.crosscanadianragweed.com  The all time greatest band ever.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2006, 12:16:32 AM »
I am 65 and retired.
I was  very for Viet Nam. A man I respected very much was not.
He told me i would see things differently one day.
It took me about 3 years to see what this was really all about and who was involved.
I changed my view.
I was skeptical of the motives behind the first gulf war.
I think I found enough evidence to understand my skepticism.
I was not in favor of this second intrusion.
I did not, nor was I given any good evidence too, support it.
I think if we have not understood that man cannot be controlled by another we have missed a big picture.
Cultures are stronger than armies.
If we want peace we need not make war--there is only one exception to this.
Again--who is behind this and who is making the money. Show me the money! Trail the money!
We have failed to understand that nations today do not make war in traditional methods and if it was my country being invaded I also would retaliate in the same method as they have.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2006, 01:52:53 AM »
I'm a retired guy mostly,,,and I was all gungho for going into Iracq and stomping on the ant hill, get wmd, free people, kick terrorist butt, etc. Then credibility and cronyism problems came up. Then and all out assault on our Constitution occurred. Then oil company exploitation was allowed. Then the prosecution of the warseemed questionable, profitable but questionable. Then lieing and misinformation issues came up while apologist worked overtime to fix things. Then it appeared that a faction of internationalist seized control of the republican party. Then economic, domestic business and labor policies, and global free traderism conflicts arose. Then the defacto open border and apparent secret creation of the N. A. Union appeared. And several other things like emminet domain, ammesty, etc. came up. Pretty much turned me off to both major parties. Aside from that everything is just fine... :)

...........TM7

Yep......couldn't have said it better myself.......It amazes me how much liberty we've given up over the years.......
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline magooch

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2006, 04:22:25 AM »
I'm a seasoned citizen and like many of us, I was in the service at the time of the Vietnam War.  I thought that it was foolish to engage in a land war with anyone at that time and I still feel that way.  That isn't to say that I think that we should walk away from our friends and allies in the face of agression, though.  We had a pact with South Vietnam and I'm not going into the wisdom of that, but I do believe we should honor our commitments.

It's how you go about dealing with countries and other entities that makes all the difference in the world.  First, if you're going to enter into a conflict, you must do it with the intent to win, no matter what it takes.  I believe it is only right that you give fair warning of your intentions and then if the opponent persists, you nuke the bastards off the face of the earth--period.

It is my belief that if we had done this to North Korea and then followed up with North Vietnam (if necessary), there would be no doubt about the wisdom of messing with the USA.  Some would say, well, what do you do in the case of terrorism, when no particular country can be blamed.  Simple, just pick the ones you think are the most troublesome, give them 48 hours to gather and kill all the suspects they can round up, failure to do so would result in very bad news.

I do not believe in using ground troops to conduct war.  I believe war is about killing people and breaking things and right now the most efficient device we have for doing that is nukes.
Swingem

Offline Mac11700

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2006, 01:54:27 PM »


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I believe war is about killing people and breaking things and right now the most efficient device we have for doing that is nukes.

Truthfully...we do have something better than convintional nueclear bombs...it's called the X bomb...It just kills living organisms and doesn't leave the ground un-inhabitable nearly as long (something like 3 years ) and no large amounts of nuclear fallout to worry about...It was developed during the Reagan administration as part of the Star Wars program...and yes this one does exist..

Turning these areas into a parking lot would certainly seem logical....but...not very practical...and besides...the big oil companies wouldn't allow it ;)

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline joshco84

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2006, 03:13:51 PM »
it wouldnt be a parking lot, just one big sheet of glass since that is what sand turns into when it is that hot.  but either way, sounds good to me.
Smells like country, Tastes like rock and roll...... Want to find out more??? www.crosscanadianragweed.com  The all time greatest band ever.

Offline hardertr

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2006, 04:38:43 AM »
I guess I'm relatively young compared to some of you (34).  I'm headed to Iraq in June/July and am trying to convince myself that I care about the outcome.  At this point, I am not willing to die so a terrorist nation can have "free elections".  The outcome of that will undoubtedly be : "Thanks USA...now get out....we owe you nothing"

We see a lot of training videos of the situation over there.  I find it very hard not to hate.  Throw the press (the one disease I absolutely despise the most) into the mix, and it gets even worse.  To be honest, I am more scared of the press than insurgents.

I think we should have left the oil alone (there is no other reason we went in, except maybe to cover up the fact that WE supplied Iraq with CHEMICAL WEAPONS during the Iran Iraq war).  Now that we're in, it's too late to pull out.  Wonder what kind of promises the Democrats are going to make when they win the elections?  If we pull out, the country will be worse off than when we went in, if we stay...the Dems lose support and credibility.
The problem with troubleshooting is....sometimes it shoots back!

Offline ironglow

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2006, 09:56:37 AM »
 JOSH ;

     I am a senior citizen and I was in the military in the 50s & 60s (Vietnam era). Generally speaking, unless some other issue (good or bad) intervenes,a person with age and seasoning (wisdom) gets more conservative as the years go on.

   " if you are not liberal at 20 you have no heart; .if you are not conservative by the time you are 40..you have no brain !"
                 
           ....Winston S. Churchill
   
  We are involved in the war on terror..including Iraq..whether we wished to or not..we were brutally attacked on 9/11/01..and those terrorists will not stop..unless we stop them.
 
    Their clearly stated aim is to destroy western civilization..and replace it with a midieval caliphate..

   Either we fight them... or deny the REAL God and learn to bow and scrape 5 times daily and teach our little girls to wear a bag over their head and body...!

   You will hear all kinds of "conspiracy theories" as to why we are involved in the war on terror, oil, money, hegemony etc .  I think some folks really believe these myths..
    Others, whom I know personally...in order to easily back out on what they know is their or their offspring's civic duty..use these conspiracy theories as a "way out" of honorable service..

   Why Iraq ?
       ...WMD is a "straw man" used by the "cut and run" crowd to justify their failure to really back our troops. The Vice Air Marshall of Saddam's forces has written a book , outlining how Saddam disposed of his WMD when the conflict started.
 
    In any case, there were many reasons, not the least of which was Saddam's horrible, torturous dictatorship and his harboring of Al Queda.

  Why Iraq ? 
     
    ..After 9/11, it became clear that the middle east needed to have a democratic state deep in their area, if democracy were to flourish there.

   Now; take out your map of the middle east..if democracy were installed in a lonely corner of the middle east where it could be bypassed (e.g. Afghanistan)..it may well wither and die on the vine..
 
   Looking at your map..see where Iraq is !   Yup !..right smack-dab in the middle..too big and oil rich to be ignored..

      Needless to say, as a seasoned (and hopefully sagacious ) senior citizen, it is heartbreaking to see how quickly some folks are ready to desert our troops in their mission..

   I am sure you can recall sports in high school...

  Suppose your team is involved in a very important (state championship) game..You are the coach ( president) and you are doing your best to win the game.
  Meanwhile, there are some students from your own school that are in your own bleachers, complaining about your coaching..even though they have no idea of their own, on how to win the game...they shout that you are a liar, are only coaching for the money, your team doesn't even belong on THAT FIELD, that you are cheating , being "unnecessarily rough" and not playing by the rules...and in many other ways encouraging the opposition on..
   
  Now understand that this war on terror is more important than a state championship..and when the opposition (enemy terrorists) are encouraged by "our students" ( anti-war on terror advocates)...our team members (Soldiers & Marines) are killed...

   As the president said a couple days after 9/11 when he stood upon that destroyed fire engine..this will be a long, hard war..it will take decades, and there will be losses.
 
   My own grandson (also Josh) when he considered 2&1/2 years ago, joining the USMC ..he spoke with me. I knew he wouild be facing the enemy..probably one-on-one..and he did.
 
    Yet; in no way could I counsel that he behave in a cowardly way..and shrink from what he considered his duty.

  He is Marine Spec Ops with a tour in Al Anbar behind him..and he need not be resentful of his gramp . Gramp did not counsel cowardice !
 
  He is a proud, Marine combat veteran...

    Do not be so impatient as some are...the president as much as told us that we must have a bit more patience than the average soap opera watcher...who gets their answer in a half hour segment...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nabob

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2006, 01:57:07 PM »
On the contrary, WMD's were the reason we WENT to Iraq. Then we found out they didn't have any. Oops. Far from being used by the "cut and run" crowd, the excuse of WMD's was used by the neoconservatives that got us into this war. It is hilarious to now see people actually try to rewrite history by claiming that the focus on WMD's are the fault of those that didn't want to go to war.

We are in a war against terrorists but Iraq didn't attack us on 9/11 so that dog won't hunt.

A stable democracy in the Middle East would be a good thing. It isn't going to happen in Iraq any time soon. Spending more money and lives on this mission is not supporting the troops, in my view.

The direction taken by this "coach" is not getting us any closer to the goalposts. Time to run some different plays.

Offline ironglow

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2006, 02:31:10 PM »
TM7;
  
 Even with a re-reading of Josh's post, I see nowhere where it says he is headed into combat directly, or even in the military at present....I know he did speak of it earlier but  this post seems to only be asking what our present stance is and how we arrived at that stance.
  Some, including Wm and yourself seem to have answered him with your opinions..and I with mine..
 
    ( You will note:.. my post was directed to Josh..the original poster.)

  If you are referring to Hardertr; I didn't address any answers to him..because he didn't ask any questions. In fact, he seems to have his own answers figured out...and it was not "fate" that led him there, each of our military is a volunteer.
  
   The only advice I would offer him now, is the same advice I gave my grandson..
  
   Hardertr:
  
   Don't fall asleep during instructions, pay close attention to your trainers..especially the NCOs that have "been there , done that"..they have a wealth of knowledge they are willing to impart to you.

    Much advice depends upon your actual job status and/or MOS...

   If not in combat arms or esp Spec Ops..your odds are much improved. My grandson is Spec Ops and expects to be back in "Indian Country" before you are due there.

               Anyway Harder, as TM7 suggested, find a strong faith and keep it.."there are no athiests when the IEDs start popping"..or very few.

   Hint; ..you seem to have a very negative view of the task you are about to enter into..try to find the positive aspects..better for your own health and safety when you can set off with a "mission" instead of a dismal task.

  Read my post to Josh..you will find a few good reasons for fighting this war on terror.

   In any case, thanks for your service..soon you will come home, proudly wearing your combat ribbon...
  
    
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline DWTim

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2006, 02:50:29 PM »
Here's how I feel:

* We don't have a good record with foreign policy. We've had some success, but it generally comes after the military straightens out the situation. We're better at war and business than we are at diplomacy. I don't mean that as an insult. If you want me to clarify, just ask.

* At the outset of the war, I still retained an isolationist policy. In a nutshell: The federal government should be protecting and preserving the union. Foreign countries are for trade, not for global games of chess.

* My position changed over the past several years when I realized that we probably aren't going to be able to trade with Islamic and leftist dictatorships. We should support (truly) liberal political movements that want personal and economic freedom. I'm not sure I want to live in a world where are borders are surrounded by fascist nations that either behead, starve or imprison their inhabitants.

* I still wonder why we brought in our own companies to do most of the rebuilding in Iraq when we could have trained and paid the locals. Maybe that is different now, I don't know.

* I did NOT think the invasion of Iraq was a wise choice, but we are there.

* The right time to invade Iraq and clean out WMDs would have been in 1991.

* The propaganda war is now raging at the same level as it was during the Vietnam era. As in the past, the enemy is winning this war with a lot of help from the inside.

* I am becoming increasingly impatient with the loss of life, but I have to admit that the flexibility and survival rate of our military is amazing.

* The cost of the war and rebuilding effort concerns me, especially when I hear about civil projects that are done, and re-done, and re-done again because they keep getting sabotaged.

* I wonder if anyone has considered the consequences of a sudden withdrawal followed by a complete collapse of government in Iraq. We would be flooded with refugees. We will be good world citizens and let them in. There will be no way to tell a refugee from a terrorist.


Various other opinions addressed in point-counterpoint format:

P: We don't have enough troops over there.
C: Larger operations means our soldiers are easier targets.

P: Our intelligence shortcomings stem from depending on technology more than human intelligence.
C: Neither is a magic bullet. The enemy is making decisions and communicating instantaneously with wireless phones and through the Internet. Technology needs to be a larger part of the equation.

P: We're creating terrorists / Bush is creating terrorists.
C: No, the "Wahabi" movement started in (what is now) Saudi Arabia in the 18th Century. This is the reverse reformation, i.e. the radicalization that is responsible for producing charming personalities such as Usama bin Laden. The militant take-over began in the mid-1920s. Since then, we've seen lots of me-too groups sprout up.

P: Let's bomb / nuke them.
C: Personally, I don't want nukes going off anywhere near our troops, plus I think nukes are a waste of money. Bombs have their place, but first there needs to be someone to bomb. I know some folks advocate flattening various Iraqi cities, but if those cities aren't chock full of terrorists, then not only are we wasting ordnance, we're also not killing the enemy.

P: We supplied Iraq with WMDs / We propped up Saddam Hussein's regime
C: That makes it sound like a foreign policy decision. It was more like US companies sold technology to just about any country that waved around a stack of cash. Yes, we war profiteer, along with many other countries. In fact, US companies are probably selling all kinds of export grade technology to unsavory characters all over the world as I type this. For what it's worth, here's an incomplete list of who sold what: http://www.thememoryhole.org/corp/iraq-suppliers.htm . Some countries, like the Soviet Union and China, sold to both sides of the war. As far as supporting this regime or that, it's common knowledge that our intelligence agencies play both sides of the court, just like everyone else.

EDIT:
On the contrary, WMD's were the reason we WENT to Iraq. Then we found out they didn't have any. Oops. Far from being used by the "cut and run" crowd, the excuse of WMD's was used by the neoconservatives that got us into this war. It is hilarious to now see people actually try to rewrite history by claiming that the focus on WMD's are the fault of those that didn't want to go to war.

Actually, the reasons Bush cited were Saddam Hussein's defiance of the UN resolutions pertaining to his weapons. If you will recall, Hussein agreed to certain concessions with regard to his arsenal after his 1991 Gulf War defeat. He complied up until the late 90s, then decided to kick out the UN inspectors. This is difficult for "our side" to argue, because whenever we attempt to corner "you guys" on this issue, the UN resolutions are conveniently forgotten, and a straw man put in place. Usually it's the chemical weapons (a lot which were destroyed), or his attempt to restart a nuclear program.

Truth is that there was biological weapons research going on, and that the WMD classification covers other things, such as long range artillery shells and modified Scud-C platforms, both of which were disallowed from being able to carry non-conventional payloads, and the latter being "illegally" modified to increase its range. The idea being that Hussein could defend his country, but not drop non-conventional payloads into places like Saudi Arabia and Israel, like he did previously. As for the remainder of the arsenal, a lot of them are certainly turning up as IEDs around the country.

Since then, we have also learned that Hussein was scamming the oil-for-food program, putting the whole UN connection in a bad light, using his dirty money to fund terrorist activity covertly.


Quote
We are in a war against terrorists but Iraq didn't attack us on 9/11 so that dog won't hunt.

Oh come now, that's disingenuous. No country attacked us on 9/11. A terrorist cell attacked us. They represent no nation in particular, but instead an idealogical movement. Even if they had the official support of certain nations, those nations would never admit it, because the name of the game shockingly sudden and surprising destruction.

Offline nabob

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2006, 04:04:11 PM »
Colin Powell's speech before the UN wasn't about violating UN resolutions - it was about Saddam having WMD's. Let me quote:

"What you will see is an accumulation of facts and disturbing patterns of behavior. The facts on Iraq's behavior demonstrate that Saddam Hussein and his regime have made no effort -- no effort -- to disarm as required by the international community.

Indeed, the facts and Iraq's behavior show that Saddam Hussein and his regime are concealing their efforts to produce more weapons of mass destruction."

"Numerous human sources tell us that the Iraqis are moving, not just documents and hard drives, but weapons of mass destruction to keep them from being found by inspectors."


That was from Powell's Feb 3, 2003, speech in front of the UN. It wasn't about noncompliance with UN resolutions. It was about Iraq possessing WMD's. This war was sold on the premise that Saddam had the goodies and was hiding them. Turns out he didn't have them. Oops. Now, the argument is "he had them, but got rid of them." Kinda convenient argument, relying as it does on a lack of proof as proof.

"You guys" conveniently forget that the war was sold via WMD's but the cache hasn't been found in over three years and even the US has stopped looking. I call that a major oops.

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Since then, we have also learned that Hussein was scamming the oil-for-food program, putting the whole UN connection in a bad light, using his dirty money to fund terrorist activity covertly.

Yeah, but that isn't why we went there. And since when are we the protector of the UN's image? When did we get so concerned about the UN that we'll go fight a war for it?

The world isn't going to miss Saddam, but the reasons on which Bush sold the war just were factually incorrect.

Quote
Oh come now, that's disingenuous. No country attacked us on 9/11. A terrorist cell attacked us. They represent no nation in particular, but instead an idealogical movement. Even if they had the official support of certain nations, those nations would never admit it, because the name of the game shockingly sudden and surprising destruction.

Baloney. Al Qaeda attacked us on 9/11. Iraq had no links to AQ that anyone could find. Now, the argument is "of course we can't find any links. That's because they are secret, so no evidence will be found." Call me crazy, but I need a reason to go to war, not a fantasy.



Offline rockbilly

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2006, 06:20:12 PM »
Late sisties............Viet Nam re-visited. 

Offline DWTim

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2006, 06:45:41 PM »
Colin Powell's speech before the UN wasn't about violating UN resolutions - it was about Saddam having WMD's. Let me quote:

"What you will see is an accumulation of facts and disturbing patterns of behavior. The facts on Iraq's behavior demonstrate that Saddam Hussein and his regime have made no effort -- no effort -- to disarm as required by the international community.

That is basically what I just said, but with different words. The "international community" refers to the UN. The "as required" means "as required by the resolutions" that Hussein conceded to following his defeat in 1991. ...Unless there is some other world organization that I don't know about, with which Hussein agreed to concessions (requirements if your prefer) following his 1991 defeat.


Quote
That was from Powell's Feb 3, 2003, speech in front of the UN. It wasn't about noncompliance with UN resolutions. It was about Iraq possessing WMD's. This war was sold on the premise that Saddam had the goodies and was hiding them.

I need to take an English class, then, because "to disarm as required by the international community" seems to be a clear reference to the requirements set forth by the resolutions adopted by the UN. So to complete the full circle of logic: The UN made Hussein sign some resolutions following the 1991 Gulf War. The resolutions set forth requirements to destroy and prevent the re-aquisition of barred weapons (aka WMDs). Saddam Hussein was only partially compliant, and finally decided to throw out the weapons inspectors, according to Powell. (I neglected to mention this in my first post, but the true account is asserted that the inspectors were withdrawn by the UN after it was reported that Hussein was being uncooperative.) The job was not done when the inspectors left, and Hussein would not permit unrestricted access to all sites. In other words, he had the goodies and was hiding them.

The time between when the inspectors left and Powell's speech was approximately five years. During this time, we did some bombing, and a lot posturing before the UN. When the oil-for-food scandal went public, it illuminated the situation somewhat. Hussein was bribing his "jailers" with oil in exchange for barred technologies from places like France, Germany and Russia. He was attempting to buy delivery materials for chemical or biological weapons from a German company, remember? During this time, Hussein was buying (somewhat inaccurate) intelligence from Russia.

So he had five years to prepare, he had Russian intel about our activity, and we know he was attempting to acquire materials and weapons in violation of the UN resolutions. We know that there were sites where he would not allow inspectors. Yet we had some ex-inspectors running around telling us it was almost all gone; how that is possible to know without having a complete inventory is beyond me. Were did the stuff go? Did he continue to destroy it on his own? Maybe he sold it on eBay.


Quote
Baloney. Al Qaeda attacked us on 9/11. Iraq had no links to AQ that anyone could find. Now, the argument is "of course we can't find any links. That's because they are secret, so no evidence will be found." Call me crazy, but I need a reason to go to war, not a fantasy.

Well, by your own example, Al Qaeda isn't a country, either. That is a narrow perspective on the Mid-east. It has a lot of problems, and Wahhabists are just one of those problems. There is also a lot of inter-mingling between the "forces of evil", if you will, in that region. We cannot touch one without disturbing the others. The taliban fell, but they did not attack on 9/11, either.

Iraq was aiding islamo-fascist movements, including jihadis in Israel. Iran is likely aiding Hizbollah. The Iraq problem is its own issue with a separate timeline. It predates 9/11 by a decade. The two issues probably converged when Bush realized that having troops in both Afghanistan and Iraq would be a strategic advantage. Benefits were the removal of Hussein and settling the issue of the UN resolutions, of which he was in violation.

All this for the price of a preemptive attack. This is probably where our own opinions on the situation converge. As I said originally, I did NOT initially support the Iraq invasion, but we are there. I'm not sitting here proclaiming that our government is full of perfect angels, either. The difference is that the media swept the shenanigans under the rug during the previous administration, but they jump on any claim about Bush's, even the unsubstantiated.

I hope we can agree that something must be done when we are attacked in our own country. When the enemy has no national preference, and moves freely about the Mid-east, we need greater freedom to pursue him. It's either that or we sit here and hope that we are lucky enough to not be in the wrong place at the wrong time. We are not trusted to defend ourselves, our politicians are unwilling to secure the borders and remove illegal aliens with some semblance of urgency, we do not wish our intelligence agencies to cooperate within our borders. That leaves us in Iraq, with the default solution of swatting away terrorists like angry bees.

Offline nabob

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2006, 11:21:02 PM »
Maybe you DO need to revisit English class, my man. You conveniently left out the part of the quote you didn't want to address. Let me refresh your memory:

Quote
Indeed, the facts and Iraq's behavior show that Saddam Hussein and his regime are concealing their efforts to produce more weapons of mass destruction."

"Numerous human sources tell us that the Iraqis are moving, not just documents and hard drives, but weapons of mass destruction to keep them from being found by inspectors

Tell me again how it was all about enforcing UN resolutions? It was about our assessment that Iraq had WMD's, pure and simple. We based the war on that and we were wrong. If you don't like Powell's speech before the UN, how about the Senate resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq. It has language such as this:

Quote
Whereas in 1998 Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security

And this:

Quote
continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations;

Any way you slice it, the war in Iraq was sold on the supposed fact that Iraq had WMD's. Guess what? We were wrong.

Quote
The taliban fell, but they did not attack on 9/11, either.

Nice evasion. The Taliban hosted AQ, had ties to AQ, provided bases of operation and war materiel to AQ. Show me where that was happening with Saddam. You cannot, because there was no link between AQ and Saddam. Using your reasoning, we should have invaded Canada. There wasn't any link there, either, and at least Canada is closer with good beer.

Don't try to pass the Iraq war off as having anything to do with what happened on 9/11.



Offline hardertr

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2006, 08:31:21 AM »
  Hardertr:
  
   Don't fall asleep during instructions, pay close attention to your trainers..especially the NCOs that have "been there , done that"..they have a wealth of knowledge they are willing to impart to you.

    Much advice depends upon your actual job status and/or MOS...

   If not in combat arms or esp Spec Ops..your odds are much improved. My grandson is Spec Ops and expects to be back in "Indian Country" before you are due there.

               Anyway Harder, as TM7 suggested, find a strong faith and keep it.."there are no athiests when the IEDs start popping"..or very few.

   Hint; ..you seem to have a very negative view of the task you are about to enter into..try to find the positive aspects..better for your own health and safety when you can set off with a "mission" instead of a dismal task.

  Read my post to Josh..you will find a few good reasons for fighting this war on terror.

   In any case, thanks for your service..soon you will come home, proudly wearing your combat ribbon...
  
    

Ironglow - I have been in for 16 years, I AM "the trainers".  I have my own feelings about the war, why we are there, the folks that put us there, our OWN people who don't understand that a lot of us don't want to be there..but will give a 100% because our buddies' lives depend on it.  I have to keep my own feelings completely separate from my military obligations.  My wife and I (both SFCs) volunteered last month to go to a unit that will deploy.  We have no kids, and we will be able to go to Iraq together...and maybe even see each other once or twice a month.  We volunteered for it, in part, because I am sick and tired of seeing guys go back for a 2nd or 3rd tour...when we haven't done ONE yet.  You hear the story about guys wanting to get back to Iraq just after they return home (or not leave Iraq at all).  99% of the time, this has NOTHING to do with saving Iraqis, it all about going back to protect our "family".  I think you would be pretty hard-pressed to find a single soldier (officers with their own political agenda excluded) that wouldn't be happy if a complete military withdrawal were announced.

Part of my job is to train new recruits how to survive in a country where no one can be trusted.  A lot of these kids are convinced (by recruiters) that they can spend 4 years at a posh assignment like Ft Meade, San Antonio or Hawaii, then get out.  I usually get to see their orders before they do, and a majority of them end up assigned to units that will be in Iraq within 6 months.  It's MY job to try make them see that a deployment is NOT necessarily a bad thing; I think everyone should have at least one.  Mine was Kosovo...a COMPLETELY different situations - that "conflict" was actually winnable.

Bottom line, I disagree with the US acting as a world-police force (it's no one's fault but our own), I strongly dislike the folks that put us in the Middle East (and their motives), and I think the only thing we accomplished was stirring up a hornet's nest.  HOWEVER, the military is my life, the soldiers are my family, and this war is not going to go away on its own.  Kind of ironic I guess.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2006, 12:55:52 PM »
  HarderrTr;
  First off; thank you for your service..I know it is especially tough on families having been there myself. That is why I didn't stay there..

  I  Apologize for confusing you with a trainee...but your post did sound a bit conflicted and without a firm conviction...

   It is rather hard to accept the idea that recruiters can convince young people that they are going to just take a bumper car ride down the yellow-brick-road..when they can see the job being performed by guys just like themselves in the war zone.

  It has been many years since I wore the Army green, in fact my first hitch was in the "brown boot" Army...so I have very little connection with the Army, except for neighbors that either as regulars or NG have served in the war zone.
  One particularly, a son of my next-door neighbor, is NG..He served as guard in the wreckage of 9/11, 2 tours in Iraq  and more recently was called out for work during the blizzard in Buffalo...I hear no complaining from him..and he is the father of two small children.
  He is proud to have served..
   
    Another..a son of a neighbor truck mechanic, got back from Afghanistan about 6 mos ago...he served with the 82nd Airborne there  and was pleased/proud to have done it !
 
   My nephew, a career soldier with an engineer unit served in Balad until a few months ago..came home, and he is now in Tikrit, Saddam's old home town . I spoke with him in August at my family's reunion..he is not conflicted..he is proud to serve. He will more likely spend time more time in an FOB than he did during last deployment..he was often very likely to face IEDs last tour.
 
    I never heard any complaints from him..although I did from his dad..my brother is "politically disposed" toward complaining about the war...LOL
   
 
 
  Yes; I understand that things have changed since I was on Army active duty..and I don't know how the Army recruiters work..but my grandson and his fellow Marines had NO delusions of "homesteading" at Lejeune, Quantico, Twenty-nine Palms or any other place !   They were well aware there was a war on and knew that fighting in war is part of their job description.
 
  If my grandson had fallen for a featherbed story, I would have been ashamed of him !

  As I said, I am not in tune with Army attitudes today, but I am somewhat familiar with the Marines, since I make it a point of socializing with my grandson and his NCO friends every time I visit .
   
  If the picture you painted is typical of Army NCOs..then they differ greatly from today's Marines...Today's Marine NCOs are fit, ready and willing.. They do their 7 mile run each morning (for starters) achieve martial arts belts and stay in shape to back it up with continuous field operations....but then, he is Special Ops..I cannot speak for support units..
 
     Somehow, they are really positive about their job, their service... and the Corps.

  Yes, ask any one of them..they would be glad to see the war over... WITH HONOR...but the Marines have no desire to "cut and run"..

   I tend to assume that most of the Army feels the same way..
 
   My grandson did train at Aberdeen for a time a couple years ago and I did notice a great difference between the Army and the Marines when I visited him there...there was a real difference in attitudes, discipline and especially in their civilian dress & conduct. I could see why the Marines were billeted in a separate detatchment at Aberdeen.

   I still ( as an old man) advise you to practice looking for the positives..and for Heaven's sake, don't put your trainees to looking at their country as wrong..that would be a diservice to them.

   I can understand you disapointment and despair at having to separate your family again..but remember, it is part of the job and it will be only months.
 
   My nephew, a section chief sgt. has a wife and 3 kids at Fort Drum..but still maintains a positive outlook in Iraq..

   Thank you for your service and may God bless your family...

     
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2006, 02:13:14 PM »
DWtim;

   Thank you for an intellectual, balanced and sensible post.
 
     Like many of us, you acknowledge that the U.S. and the current administration are not perfect, but one would be hard pressed to find a better nation to live in...

    You have covered very succinctly, many points that show why most of us back the U.S.... rather than the terrorists !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline WmRoy

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2006, 12:48:38 PM »
 JOSH ;

     I am a senior citizen and I was in the military in the 50s & 60s (Vietnam era). Generally speaking, unless some other issue (good or bad) intervenes,a person with age and seasoning (wisdom) gets more conservative as the years go on.

   " if you are not liberal at 20 you have no heart; .if you are not conservative by the time you are 40..you have no brain !"
                 
           ....Winston S. Churchill
   
  We are involved in the war on terror..including Iraq..whether we wished to or not..we were brutally attacked on 9/11/01..and those terrorists will not stop..unless we stop them.
 
    Their clearly stated aim is to destroy western civilization..and replace it with a midieval caliphate..

   Either we fight them... or deny the REAL God and learn to bow and scrape 5 times daily and teach our little girls to wear a bag over their head and body...!

   You will hear all kinds of "conspiracy theories" as to why we are involved in the war on terror, oil, money, hegemony etc .  I think some folks really believe these myths..
    Others, whom I know personally...in order to easily back out on what they know is their or their offspring's civic duty..use these conspiracy theories as a "way out" of honorable service..

   Why Iraq ?
       ...WMD is a "straw man" used by the "cut and run" crowd to justify their failure to really back our troops. The Vice Air Marshall of Saddam's forces has written a book , outlining how Saddam disposed of his WMD when the conflict started.
 
    In any case, there were many reasons, not the least of which was Saddam's horrible, torturous dictatorship and his harboring of Al Queda.

  Why Iraq ? 
     
    ..After 9/11, it became clear that the middle east needed to have a democratic state deep in their area, if democracy were to flourish there.

   Now; take out your map of the middle east..if democracy were installed in a lonely corner of the middle east where it could be bypassed (e.g. Afghanistan)..it may well wither and die on the vine..
 
   Looking at your map..see where Iraq is !   Yup !..right smack-dab in the middle..too big and oil rich to be ignored..

      Needless to say, as a seasoned (and hopefully sagacious ) senior citizen, it is heartbreaking to see how quickly some folks are ready to desert our troops in their mission..

   I am sure you can recall sports in high school...

  Suppose your team is involved in a very important (state championship) game..You are the coach ( president) and you are doing your best to win the game.
  Meanwhile, there are some students from your own school that are in your own bleachers, complaining about your coaching..even though they have no idea of their own, on how to win the game...they shout that you are a liar, are only coaching for the money, your team doesn't even belong on THAT FIELD, that you are cheating , being "unnecessarily rough" and not playing by the rules...and in many other ways encouraging the opposition on..
   
  Now understand that this war on terror is more important than a state championship..and when the opposition (enemy terrorists) are encouraged by "our students" ( anti-war on terror advocates)...our team members (Soldiers & Marines) are killed...

   As the president said a couple days after 9/11 when he stood upon that destroyed fire engine..this will be a long, hard war..it will take decades, and there will be losses.
 
   My own grandson (also Josh) when he considered 2&1/2 years ago, joining the USMC ..he spoke with me. I knew he wouild be facing the enemy..probably one-on-one..and he did.
 
    Yet; in no way could I counsel that he behave in a cowardly way..and shrink from what he considered his duty.

  He is Marine Spec Ops with a tour in Al Anbar behind him..and he need not be resentful of his gramp . Gramp did not counsel cowardice !
 
  He is a proud, Marine combat veteran...

    Do not be so impatient as some are...the president as much as told us that we must have a bit more patience than the average soap opera watcher...who gets their answer in a half hour segment...

I can add nothing to this........... God Bless the USA!!

Offline ironglow

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2006, 11:17:00 PM »
  Thanks Wm...

   Some folks just "don't get it "..truly, I think they just don't WANT to get it..because that might require some type of small sacrifice or small effort to back their own country.

  Some are so political and filled with the same kind of hate that J Kerry & Co are..that they would rather see the nation go down the tubes, than to have Pres Bush succeed...

    Is the president perfect ?...Not by a long shot ! Has he and his administration made mistakes ? They sure have..just as all administrations before them  !
   
 Is the administration made up of basically decent people, trying to do what is best to keep our people safe from terror and slavery ?...I believe they are...

   About the only question we each have to ask ourselves is..." Do I honestly want our team to win ? "

    ....And we can each ask ourselves that in silence, without further comment..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nabob

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2006, 11:39:59 PM »
As Samuel Johnson remarked, patriotism is often the last refuge of a scoundrel. By declaring their actions to be patriotic and their opponent's as unpatriotic, they wrap themselves in the flag in a hope that their position is thus unassailable. Now, according to the hyperconservatives on this site, to even voice one's opinion that a policy of the US is headed in the wrong direction is to be playing politics, hoping that the "goes down the tubes", etc. Notice that the war in Iraq and its merits or demerits are cleverly ignored and the issue is posed as one of patriotism, not costs/benefits. Wrap that flag around you, ironglow. Maybe no one will notice that you've tried to change the subject from Iraq to politicians.

Which is more patriotic: wanting to send more of our soldiers to fight in a war so botched that victory is not even recognizable or someone who says "keep doing what we are doing, even though it isn't working?"

And we can each ask ourselves that in silence, without further comment.

Offline ironglow

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2006, 11:53:03 PM »
Nabob;


    ....So "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"..can you imagine how many times we have each heard an unpatriotic person quote Johnson..simply to justify his position ?   NICE TRY NABOB !
   
    We do know that "cut and run".. and pander to the aggressor NEVER works..

    Ask Neville Chamberlain..

    Ask Ethelred the Unready ( of the Danegeld fame)

    Ask Jimmy Carter about the consulate hostages

    Ask Clinton and Les Aspin about Mogadishu (and how that inspired the terrorists we fight today)

  Ask anyone that ever tried to appease fanatics bent on conquest...



    And again..everyone review our posts and...Ask who really wants to WIN the war on terror..and who thinks the US is still the best nation..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nabob

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2006, 12:14:18 AM »
Everyone review our posts and ask yourselves which position is truly Christian. My guess is that it will not be one that says it is OK to get our jollies by engaging in a little "called-for humiliation".

Everyone review our posts and ask yourselves which position is truly patriotic: one that wants to bring our troops home from a botched war, thanks to the Bush Administration, and one that wants to keep them dying on an unwinnable foreign battlefield.

Everyone review our posts and ask yourselves if you are happy with the way Bush has botched this war so totally after winning a stunning battlefield victory. Then ask yourself if an idiot like Kerry could have done any better.

Then ask yourself if this is the best we can do? It isn't about "love of country", though hyperconservative apologists who think in two dimensions would love that to be the case. It is about getting a better crop of candidates than the ones we are presently getting. Kerry would have been a disaster for this country. Bush has been. And this is something you support, ironglow, because you march in lockstep with the Republicans?

Try thinking for yourself sometime. It will be a novel endeavor, but worth it.


Offline ironglow

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2006, 02:01:15 AM »
  OK Nabob...here's your chance..

   Nominate your choices for the following offices and the appointments to be made:

     1   President____________

     2   Vice Pres ___________

     3  Secy of State ___________

     4  Secy of Defense __________

     5 Chmn joint chiefs ____________

      


    Now do iot or get off your cheesebox...

        It is easy to take potshots at other folks choices, when you have not shown the quality (or lack thereof) of your choices.

       Let's go..show the courage of your convictions..

   

   Yes TM7 most of us understand the Liberals doctrine of "moral equivalence"..but few here endorse it !

   Flash for poor, benighted Sinclair Lewis ( he IS out of date you know)..Facism will not come to America wrapped in a flag and wearing a cross..more likely, facism will come to America wrapped in a turban, pinned with a crescent and cutting off heads...
     
      Time for old Sinky admirers to WAKE UP !

   
    
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline prairiedog555

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2007, 11:41:08 AM »
WMD's, morals, Saddam's tyranny aside, the Iraq's don't deserve freedom, if they did they would fight for it.  they deserve Saddam.
Instead of killing him we should have made a deal with him.  Sure he is a no good thug. But A smart administration would have known how to deal with him.  Saddam is quoted as saying that he is the only one who can rule Iraq.  Hell, his sworn enemy is Iran.  When it hits the fan with Iran we will wish we had him as an ally. 
He killed around 1m of them and sacrificed 500,000 of his own men because he was contracted to do so by US and Kuwait, & Saudi's.  When he was not paid he attacked Kuwait. 
Just like in Vietnam, the South did not fight, I would not mind supporting a people looking for freedom, the Iraq's need a new dictator.

Offline sparsons

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2007, 01:53:05 PM »
I think the question was about our ages and our views over the past 20 or so years. I personally have not changed my view of Islam and the middle east since before 1970. Having studied world history, world religions, and false cults in college I knew at a very early age what was going in in the middle east. Years ago I asked myself what would pull the world into a conflict based in the middle of countries full of sand---one thing oil. Based upon my thelogical veiw of things I see no end to problems in that part of the world. Having said that I support our troops 100% I was for the war but am not happy with the way it has been carried out. Sure the truth has been withheld from the people but every president has been quilty of not telling the real reasons for their actions.  If our country had known what FDR was doing they might have called for his head on a platter. I think the older I get the more "hawkish" I have become. I do not agree with everything Bush does or says.  If I did one of us would be useless and it would not be me  :D.

Offline Sourdough

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2007, 02:08:23 PM »
First of all we should have finished it the first time, before the insurgents got organized.

Second we really screwed up by firing the trained Iraqui army.  Most were not loyal to Sadam, they would have been loyal to a new Iraqi government.  They were fired and took all their weapons with them.  Putting that many people out of work is going to cause problems and hatred for the people that fired them.  Those are the insurgents we are fighting today.  They are well trained and do their job well.  And the radical groups are more than willing to pay them well to continue being insurgents.

We're in a real pickle.
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Offline hardertr

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2007, 02:20:37 PM »
We're in a real pickle.

No we're not.....we're sending 20,000 more troops AND attacking 2 more countries.   ::)

I see now why we (the Army) had to get rid of our "Army of One" slogan.  GW wanted his to be "A Country of One"
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2007, 02:48:47 PM »
   I really hope the talking stops and the war starts. The problem we are having is people trying to talk to these animals. I just hope the troops are sent to do what they do best, kill people and break things. I'm tired of the talk it is a time for action. I want to see the people of Iraq crushed, then Iraq made into a base where we can launch attacks on the rest of the muslime world.

   They are vicious rabid animals and deserve no quarter. If anyone thinks these animals are out for nothing less than total control of the world they are fools.

  It makes me ill that anyone can think we can have talk and dialogue with the cult of islam animals. Why don't they go there and personally try to have a talk with them. They will force you to convert or they will kill you.

   What we need is a total war againt these animals and to end this cult now.

    More soldiers I say yes. Expand the war I say yes. Kill every man, woman and child that will not free themselve from this cult I say yes.

   The only problem with this war is that it is being run by weaklings. The repubs are weak and the dems are even weaker.

   I would imagine that if the people of the revolutionary period would be as cowardly as the average American is now we'd still be British subjects.

  I'm sick of seeing good American soldiers brought up on charges for abusing or killing the muslimes. President Bush needs to pardon them and give them all medals. War is he!!. I wanna see it be made he!! for these murder cult animals.

  And I don't wanna hear any "well if we do that we're no better than the terrorists". We are better than them we're american and we're right.
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Offline powderman

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Re: i hate to stir the witches pot
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2007, 03:48:43 PM »
Dang it BILLY, there ya go making sense again. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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