Interest poll - LBT tool for making free gas checks

[Veral]

I'm sorry friends, but I've had to put this gas check maker project on a back burner for the forseeable future, but haven't had time to delete it from the forum or notify all you have have responded with interest.  One reason for laying it back was not enough interest, which may change in time.   Please see my last post on this topic.

I have been debating the manufacture of a gas check maker which mounts in and is powered by a standard reloading press and uses the new 24 oz beer cans for material. (They are thicker than the smaller cans, with work fine but are a bit dainty.)

  To make checks with this tool, strips which are cut from the side metal from the cans, is fed through a slot, the checks being punched out and formed in one stroke of the press.  The checks are colledted in the hollow punch, which is removed from the press just as you'd remove a sized cartridge case, and the checks poured out into a container.  The prototype which I made, produces close to 1000 in an hour after the strips are cut and ready, and the tube of this unit hold about 10 checks.  This means, remove and dump the checks that often.  I may be able to up capacity of the tube some.

  Ideally the customer would purchase a mold specivically for these checks.  This means the base band would be cut about .004 smaller than sizer diameter, so hard bullets can be checked without shearing the checks.  Or the same checks will fit any plainbase mold of the caliber and will size on without shearing if sizing is done while bullet hardness is below about 16 bhn.  This means those using the most popular alloy today, whcih is water quenched wheel weights, would have to remove bullets from the water, blow them dry and size within a maximum time of about 2 to 3 hours after casting, or any time shorter.  Also the checks will not give full performance if an existing plain base mold has a base band which is wider the the checks will cover.  Performance increase will be very worthwile, but the base band must be a pecise length to get optimum performance the these thin aluminum checks, with a grease groove forward of the check to collect lead scrapings.

  If interested in such a tool, please email me at      LBTisAccuracy@Imbris.net.  I expect the price will have to be at least $150 per tool, which will be high quality heat treated tool steel, capable of very long life.  And I would only produce the most popular calibers, at first at least.  38 44 45   One body will make (maybe 41), 44 and 45, both  rifle and pistol, but will require two extra internal forming  parts for each caliber., which would raise the price some.  Ditto the other calibers.  In other words, probably 4  to 6  bodies will cut blanks for all calibers from 22 to 50.  This body is the part that screws into the press.  One of the forming parts will be inserted  like a cartridge into a reloading die, taken out and dumped when full of checks, the other will be locked into the top of the body and would be changed to switch calibers.   I will experiment with feeding multiple layers of metal through to see if it will produce stacked checks which will fit standard gas check shanks.  Performance has already been proven with the free check makers, but production with my tool is the concern here.  If you email me, I'll respond after perhaps three weeks with an answer of whether demand warants production.

  I've sat on this idea for approximately 20 years, my friends.  I was already busy then, and not really excited about the thin aluminum stock.  Business is slack enough now to consider it, and the new, and very abundant 24 oz cans make the concept quite attractive.

  I made a serious typo error above yesterday, when I originally wrote this, by leaving a 0 off the price!  And got quite a flood of responses!  $15 would certainly be an attractive price but at todays prices, tool steel, heat treatment and the precision grinding required (which I don't have the equipment for) to make what I'm promising will cost me probably $40 each at least, plus all my own machining time, as I'll be doing all the rest.  So I can't appoligize for the price.  It is a Rolls Royce tool that will be a pleasure to use and FAST.

  I believe it will be workable to ream the check shanks on customer molds to suit a single check.  Probably all  molds except  Lee, if they don't have too short a check shank.  I'll ruin a few molds for friends before I take this on for sure, because I don't sell anything that isn't tried and true..
 

[R J Talley]

I'm going to copy this to the cast bullet and Lever Gun sites. There has been loads of talk about this so the time may now be perfect.

[454-hunter]

AWESOME WOULD BUY ONE IN A HEART BEAT VERAL

[Woodbutcher]

 H-mm!! Might go from my wish list to the get list.  Woodbutcher

[ND Sharpshooter]

Am definitly interested, Veral.

[georgemu]

I'm interested in 357, 44, 308 gas check makers.

[fowler]

Would it work with appropriate thickness copper? I think it might just be easier to get sheets of copper sheared to strip thickness in bulk that to hand cut beer cans.....

[Veral]

  The big problem with using copper is the cost, which will be almost as bad as buying checks.  Aluminum roof flashing happens to be available at very low cost.  The tool will work with about any stock of appropriate thickness, and cutting the strips is real easy, with whatever stock is used.  In fact a row of holes (gc blanks) is punched along one edge, then the holes trimmed off with tin snips.  It gives minimum waste this way.

[Smokin7mm]

Veral,
My questions are,
1) Would this tool make checks that would be the same thickness as a standard hornady gas check thus eliminating the need to modify the mould?

2) Would these be a crimp on check like the hornady or like the old Lyman check?

3) How would the aluminum check perform compared to a standard gilding metal check? (any fouling in the barrel?)

My reason for asking is that I af access to aluminum sheet from a surplus store in varying thicknesses at a pretty reasonable price.

Bret

[Veral]

  It will make checks from most any material one can obtain.  With the two standard thickness's of  Aluminum roof flashing from your local building supply it will make the two thickness's of checks which Hornady makes.  And they will crimp on but perhaps slightly less secure than Hornady's, but they do lock and will stay on during flight.

  Aluminum doesn't foul the bore any more than guilding metal or copper checks that I can tell, and performance has been  identical in my testing, when using thick checks.

  When using beverage cans, which are much thinner, the new 24 oz beer cans being .001 thicker than smaller cans, in my original testing performance was slightly inferior to Hornady checks, but I learned from the maker of the Free Check tool which was available at that time, that I wasn't making them right.  Mine were fitting over a base band but not covering it completely.  To get optimum performance, the base band and inside length of the checks must be the same, so scraped lead can gather into a grease groove.

  To word that differently.  If one were to buy a check maker for a mold he already has and the base band is wider than the checks will cover, he will get excellent performance but not equal to factory checks.  If I cut a mold to suit the checks, or if he's lucky enough that the base band of his mold is right for the checks, performance will be so close to factory checks that the different isn't worth talking about. 

  An excellent material is aluminum printing plates, but most printers try to use the cheaper paper plates, so you'll have to look around to find the aluminum ones.

  With any speical material one might be able to find, the only requirement to make checks is a small inexpensive internal punch change, and that the stock thickness is suitable to the bullets check shank, or a mold be made suitable, or the check shank enlarged a little if a material is found with a thickness somewhere between that of standard checks and beverage cans.

  If you don't drink beer, the cans can be found along most country roads and the neighborhood will be thankful if you take a walk for a few miles and pick them up.  I'm going to guess that one of these larger cans will make in the neighborhood of 300 gc's.  They can be easily cut with short Fiskers sissors, to sheet metal snips.  The ends are cut off and the side ripped lengthwise.   

[Trout Bum]

I am interested.

[Veral]

  Trout Bum!  I never got deeply into fishing because I could never figgure the best caliber to use, but I am convinced that velocities don't need to be high enough to make gas checks necessary, unless your trout are a lot bigger than ours!

  Hope you don't mind the attempted humor!
  You'll have to email me so I can contact you back when I'm ready to run. --  There has been a lot of interest, so I feel quite certain that I'll get into setting up  the manufacturing equipment  soon after old man winter makes it a lot nicer in the shop than outside!

Email address again is    LBTisAccuracy@Imbris.net.  Write to tell me you are interested in the check maker or to ask any private question about orders, getting performance, etc etc.

[alamogunr]

  It will make checks from most any material one can obtain.  With the two standard thickness's of  Aluminum roof flashing from your local building supply it will make the two thickness's of checks which Hornady makes.  And they will crimp on but perhaps slightly less secure than Hornady's, but they do lock and will stay on during flight.

  Aluminum doesn't foul the bore any more than guilding metal or copper checks that I can tell, and performance has been  identical in my testing, when using thick checks.

  When using beverage cans, which are much thinner, the new 24 oz beer cans being .001 thicker than smaller cans, in my original testing performance was slightly inferior to Hornady checks, but I learned from the maker of the Free Check tool which was available at that time, that I wasn't making them right.  Mine were fitting over a base band but not covering it completely.  To get optimum performance, the base band and inside length of the checks must be the same, so scraped lead can gather into a grease groove.

  To word that differently.  If one were to buy a check maker for a mold he already has and the base band is wider than the checks will cover, he will get excellent performance but not equal to factory checks.  If I cut a mold to suit the checks, or if he's lucky enough that the base band of his mold is right for the checks, performance will be so close to factory checks that the different isn't worth talking about. 

  An excellent material is aluminum printing plates, but most printers try to use the cheaper paper plates, so you'll have to look around to find the aluminum ones.

  With any speical material one might be able to find, the only requirement to make checks is a small inexpensive internal punch change, and that the stock thickness is suitable to the bullets check shank, or a mold be made suitable, or the check shank enlarged a little if a material is found with a thickness somewhere between that of standard checks and beverage cans.

  If you don't drink beer, the cans can be found along most country roads and the neighborhood will be thankful if you take a walk for a few miles and pick them up.  I'm going to guess that one of these larger cans will make in the neighborhood of 300 gc's.  They can be easily cut with short Fiskers sissors, to sheet metal snips.  The ends are cut off and the side ripped lengthwise.   

Veral, I'm a little confused.  Does your proposed tool crimp a pre-formed gas check to the base of a plain base bullet, or form the gas check to the base from a punched out disc similar to the Free Check?
Or conversely, does it require a reduced diameter (gas check) base the same as Hornady checks?

I have a lot of aluminum sheet, .004 tk on hand, but it is half hard and wouldn't form too well.  It can be annealed.  I have done that in the wife's oven (when she is not home) and it left it fairly soft and formable.  Would the use of this material require a different punch?

[Veral]

  It will preform gas checks which are similar to commercial checks if the same thickness material is used, to be used with molds cut for gas checks.  Or, for plain base bullets, the checks will look similar, and are made  from thin sheet like you have, which is about the same as the large beer cans.  16 oz beverage cans are .003 thick I believe and work just fine also..  In either case the same check maker body and blanking punch will be used, with the correct forming  punch  required to get the inside diameter right.  The latter a very inexpensive part.

[gypsyman]

Veral, I think you have a very good idea. Didn't somebody years ago have a punch and die set that a person could hammer out a disc, and then form it in a die. I like your idea better, as you can control the pressure to form the check on a press, much better than slamming a punch with a hammer into a die. What with all metal price's going thru the roof, I think you will see a dramatic increase in reloading, and especially casting. Good luck-gypsyman

[Veral]

  Yes, and it was called a free check maker.  Last sold by Paco on Leverguns I think, but first offered by Hanned Precision in California.

  Pressures to cut and form checks on a loading press are so light that control of pressure is not a factor, and my tool won't wear out or wear the operator out.

[GregP42]

Veral,

So are you still in the planning stages right now, or have you decided to make them?

Hope you have a good Christmas,
Greg

[Veral]

  I haven't decided for certain yet, because interest hasn't been the greatest, and the project has to cover to tooling costs plus some profit, of coarse.  I promised to make a decision sometime this winter, as I expect to have time to spend on something new, but so far weather and some other problems has kept be busy more than I can handle and stay healthy! 

[mdatlanta]

E-mail sent, Veral.

Is there anyone else out there who would like one of these tools in .35 caliber?

[Veral]

  I've had interest for every caliber.  If you are thinking to produce checks for others, that's a very valid option to anyone purchasing one, as production speed should be at least 500 per hour. Without hurrying,  I produced 1000 per hour with the prototype one I built way back when, AFTER the strips were cut, which took maybe 20 to 30 minutes with hand shears.  A paper cutter will speed that dramatically with aluminum can material, or a small sheet metal shear for heavier material.

   Cut me some slack so far as a decision on making these this winter.  A HUGE "fly in the ointment" hit yesterday.  I definately won't make a decision till at least late January.  The "Fly" is big brother striking again, if you understand my almost 8 year battle with them to keep LBT alive.  If you know nothing about my battle, it is against attempted progressive gun control, by the IRS who is the mother of the monster.  All guns need to be collected or they will have to quit increasing taxes!.

[elkhunter1983]

Hi Veral,

I certainly hope that you decide to make the gas check making tool.  I have three of your molds for .41 Mag.  When I started casting, I bought 4000 Lyman gas checks.  I'm down to only a couple hundred left and have been trying to find more, unsuccessfully.  I called and e-mailed everyone I could think of, but no luck.  I just got an answer to my e-mail to Lyman and the very snooty relply said they don't make gas checks anymore and neither does anyone else for the .41 caliber and furthermore no-one ever will again.  Well, they've lost a customer "forever" as he/she put it.  So if you don't produce the gas check tool, I'll have to go to Corbin and spend a whole lot of money to buy a swaging press and their gas check making tool.  For what they're charging, I could have bought a lifetime supply of gas checks and still had a bunch to spare. 

[Veral]

  Stay mad at Lyman, they deserve it, but otherwise relax pal. 

  Both Bullet Swaging Supply (Gator checks) and Hornady make 416 gas checks of a thicker material than Lyman used, which means they won't fit on the check shanks of all older 41 moulds, including the ones I made before Hornady started making their 416 checks.

  The solution available to you is to spread 416 checks enough so they slip on bullets from your mould (s) easily.  You can hand grind a punch by shortening a center punch which is large enough in diameter  to give the spread you need, adding a tiny blunt taper at the end so they get started into the checks easily.  One light tap with a small hammer will fix each check. 

  If you have a lathe available, it is a simple task to turn up a punch and die to fit a standard reloading press, so you can spread them a bit more precisely.  Though precision isn't important, as they will close back down perfectly true when sized onto the bullets.

  This trick is mandatory for several calibers when larger than normal bullets are required.

   If you have some 44 checks on hand, try them.  I think you'll be pleasantly supprised to see how nicely they wrap on!  However your sizer die may need to be beveled a bit more to let them start smoothly.

[GregP42]

Veral,

Gator makes two sizes of .41 gas checks, I have gotten checks from him that are the correct size for the older lyman molds. I found this out about a year ago when I was part of a group buy of gas checks from Gator.

But I am still waiting to see if your going to be able to do the tool your talking about.

Greg

[Veral]

I'm sorry friends, but I've had to put this gas check maker project on a back burner for the forseeable future, but haven't had time to delete it from the forum or notify all you have have responded with interest.  One reason for laying it back was not enough interest, which may change in time.

[GregP42]

I'm sorry friends, but I've had to put this gas check maker project on a back burner for the forseeable future, but haven't had time to delete it from the forum or notify all you have have responded with interest.  One reason for laying it back was not enough interest, which may change in time.

Veral,

Sorry to hear this, but keep my name on that list of people wanting in on this if you ever do get enough interest.

Greg

[Veral]

  OK, I'll keep everyones name who responded, and leave this post in place, rather than delete all as I promised.

Look it as information regarding what is possible, in that high quality gas checks can be easily made from a varity of materials if a proper and high quality tool is made.  If some of you with machining talent attack the project you may come up with a better idea than I have for making them.  If you think so, let me know and I'll gladly share my input.  There is room in this country for someone to set up and make such tools, but it will be quite involved, which is the main reason I can't tackle it.  I can't bear up to more than I have on me right now, nor stand hiring labor and training them, all while running the mould business and dealing with the Fed attack.  If you 'invent' on it, understand that it is easily possible to make checks in one stroke of a loading press.  Two strokes and extra handling makes the venture worthless, as does pounding them out.

  If someone comes up with a good unit that I can recommend after test running it, I'll give all the names I have to that person and name you in this post you as the supplier.  I'd feel real good about helping in any way to get such a tool out to the public, and have no interest in any profit from it.

[Paladin56]

Veral,

Email sent to add my name to the list. I didn't list caliber. Doesn't make any difference since I shoot most of them. How much interest do you need to tackle the project?

Thanks,
David

[Veral]

  In all honesty if I were 46 or 56 instead of 66, my interest could be pumped up a lot easier, but finances and the Federal pressures are my main deterrent.  I'd have to be dead certain it would pay off quickly to dare take the project on. and interest was far below that level.    I must say that I've have never been concerned about the amount of interest in any other project I've offered to the public, but have just gone into any project that I thought would be of interest and offered it when I had it working.

  Someone with a screw machine shop in need of work could take it one most successfully.  This if the crew had a few broadly skilled machinests to take on the parts of manufacture where the production  machines don't have it.

  I'm receiving a few email inquires from interested parties and hopefully one will take it on.  I would dearly love to see the nation have these units availble.

[243winxb]

Aluminum doesn't foul the bore any more than guilding metal or copper checks that I can tell,

What solvent is made to remove Aluminum fouling?

aluminum oxide is quite a lot harder than even very hard tool steels (like over 70 Rockwell C hard, AKA "Hard as Hell").

I would look for a dramatic reduction in barrel life, especially when shooting bullets that have been setting for some time after being swaged.

Aluminum will oxidize in dry air, and most forming grade alloys will harden with time (even at room temperature), so not only is the jacket getting harder with age, it's being coated with a super abrasive oxide at the same time.

I wouldn't run those bullets through anything I liked, that's for sure.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5773885

[Veral]

  I've never seen ANY fouling deposit from aluminum checks, but if it should happen, the cleaning would be easy with JB bore paste, which is a very mild abrasive.

  If checks are made from beverage cans there will be no aluminum oxide to worry about.  They are coated with a very thin application of something like a varnish on the outside.  Inside, I don't know, as they do load whatever drink they contain with aluminum.  (Refuse to EVER drink from an aluminum container of any kind, with any kind of drink, for this reason.)

  If concerned about the aluminum oxide which MIGHT be on the inside of your aluminum check cans, just install the metal in your check maker so the painted side is the outside.