30-30 AI ?

[Levergun 94]

Anyone here use a Handi in 30-30 AI?  Is the rechamber worth it, in Your opinion?
Thanks for the input.


Tim

[Swampman]

You'd be better off going with the .30-40 Krag IMO.

[Fred M]

Levergun94

The 30-40 Krag would not be a 30-30AI. If you want to do that you may as well go for a 308 or 30-06.

The 30-30AI is perhaps one of the finest AI's. It has a near perfect expansion ratio and produces super accuracy. It is well known in Hunter Benchrest under various names and designs.

I will shine with the lighter 30 cal bullets like the Barnes 130 TSX at 2700ft plus and with that bullets it will be a about as good a deer rifle you can get.

If I ever can find a 30-30 Handi for sale in Canada that is what I would do with it.
There was plenty of talk on this forum about the 30-30AI some time ago, and a few people have made the conversion. Some have done it by hand, but I would have it done on a lath.

I do not recommend it in a leaver gun for several reasons, but in a Handi it would be fine at 56kpsi or so. Remember there are no SAAMI specs for wildcats.

[Levergun 94]

Hello Swampman, Fred!

I've found the 30-30 is about all I need in this dept.  Been curious as to a little more oomph though, hence the AI.
There are quite a few rounds I'm interested in, but to be honest will probably never get.  I really don't need much.
Besides my Cowboy Gun project, I think these little Handis will suit me fine.  I just REALLY want to see what the 30-30 will do in a single shot, and after all, the 30-30 AI IS a 30-30  .  Thanks for the input guys. 


Tim

[Swampman]

With a very slight increase in case volume.  Not worth the expense IMO.  There was a .30-30AI barrel on ebay with dies about a week ago.  I'd rather have a .30-40 Krag.  I don't like rimless cartridges in single shots.

[Levergun 94]

With a very slight increase in case volume.  Not worth the expense IMO.  There was a .30-30AI barrel on ebay with dies about a week ago.  I'd rather have a .30-40 Krag.  I don't like rimless cartridges in single shots.

The 30-30 IS a rimmed cartridge.  Curious Swampman as to whether you have firsthand experience with the 30-30 and/or the 30-30 Ackley Improved?  The 30-30 has been a family & Personal favorite for years.  I know the limitations of the 30-30, and am interested in that 'mere nudge' than the AI would bring.  I know to some it's not much, but I'm sure it might fit my personal needs.  Thanks for the imput.



Tim

[jason280]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about Swampman's comments.  I ordered a set of .30-30AI earlier in the year, but still haven't gotten around to getting a barrel reamed.  Its funny how new projects seem to keep falling in my lap!  Personally, I would want to go with the .30-30 simply because loaded ammo and brass is so much easier to buy. 

There have been several "discussions" on the .30-30AI over the last year, and in all cases there were quite a few posters commenting who had no experience with the .30-30AI.  I've found this is quite common on the internet, where everyone becomes a self-appointed expert!

[Levergun 94]

Hello jason280!


I'm just trying to get some real world information is all.  There are a few cartridges I am VERY familiar with, from a shooters experience, and there are even more I am not.  There are just as many I am enamoured with, from a 'daydreaming I want one' perspective as well.  Personally, I absolutely adore the 30-30 round, but want to hear from actual shooters of this, AND the Ackley Improved version to decide whether or not the AI round is all it's been said to be.  If I was just going by gun 'journals' and magazine articles I would buy the .308, or the 30-06.  BUT I guess I am just trying to get some folks that are in the know to talk me into something I have been wanting to do for a very long time .....  I just want to hear from those who shoot it, and can appreciate (and can TELL) the differences between the two, enough to tell the TRUTH as apposed to paper facts.  I stopped buying gun rags years ago because of this.  Ranting aside  , I just want to know how the darned things shoot     


Tim

[Swampman]

I have experience with the .30-30 and I like it.  I have experience with the .30-40 and I love it.  I will never have any experience with any AI cartridge.

[luv2shoot]

let's  not be close minded

[Levergun 94]

Hello Swampman!

Thank you for clarifying.  I have no experience with the 30-40 Krag, so I do not have a basis for comparison.  ALTHOUGH it does give me another round to study up on   !  Thank you for your input.  I'm wondering if I can't find a like minded shooter with a 30-30 AI Handi nearby to see what I think of it.  It would be nice to be able to see the difference first hand.....
May I say Sir, you're almost as hardheaded as me about your favorite caliber  .  As long as your having fun out in the field, yes?

Tim

[JPH45]

The 30-30 AI's greatest advantage over it's 30 WCF parent is improved case life. The 5%-6% gain in velocity can only be weighed in it's usefulness by the user. The ballistic numbers don't add up to a "Wow look at that!" transformation. Any velocity gain beyond that comes from increased pressure, not just increased powder capacity. Lot's of folks swear by it, lots's at it. There are several good articles on the net about the 30-30 AI, written by people who use it. Do a Google or ask.com search.

[nomosendero]

Yes, the 30-30AI is a great round & it DOES offer a sizable increase over the 30-30. I have one in the Contender & it is super!!
You can buy one of those for a Contender (factory chambering).

However, to rechamber a Handi is a VERY BAD idea. Anytime that you "Ackley" a rifle, the barrel shoud be set back to give the round proper headspace & "crush fit". Because of the underlug arrangement & other factors, it is just not feasible to do this. Ask any competent gunsmith how to AI a chamber in general terms for a bolt gun & he will tell you what is involved. Then tell him it is for a Handi & see what happens!

[Fred M]

nomosendero.
The 30-30 is a rimmed case and head spaces on the rim. No crush fit needed nor wanted. Besides most of the newer 30-30AI designs moves the shoulder forward by about 2/10" for a .300 neck length. This will provide max volume with a plenty grip on the bullet. No need for a .500 neck length

Even if you did institude a crush fit of 4 thou a Handi wont close with that much sticking out past the chamber.

A modern rifle like the Handi is not restricted to 42kpsi like the leaver guns. So a psi of  60k is no problem. Yes the 30-30AI should operate at about 56k for good performance and case extraction.

Please measure your neck length and let me know what it is. I make the difference in case volume about 7%. compared to a standard 30-30.

[mt3030]

OMG, deja vu!!!
I think rechambering a Handi to 30-30 AI is a great idea. The rules about setting the barrel doesn't apply to the rimmed cases. The cases headspaces on the rim, not a data line, like a rimless case. Just as we can rechamber a 22 Hornet to 22 K Hornet, or 22 Remington Jet to 22 Super Jet, or a 30-40 Krag to a 30-40 Krag AI, there is no "setting the barrel back" issue. When was the last time you heard of setting a barrel back for the three rechamberings I have listed? Rechamber it, and fire factory loads, and you have the improved cases. Handload as desired.

[Levergun 94]

Hello again Fred.
Thanks for the input mt3030.

BTW mt3030.  Saw your little 30-30 in a different post.  Purdy little rifle it is, in my opinion  .
Taking all advice into account, and I do apologize if I re-visited an older thread.  Just getting a new rifle in my favorite round, hopefully soon, and wondering about improving on it.  Same with the little Hornet.  Perhaps that one will become a second favorite pretty soon  .
Thanks again,


Tim

[mt3030]

Levergun 94:
Don't worry about visiting old subjects. It's just that on one of the previous times this was visited things got heated and we lost several very experienced members.

I think the H&R Toppers/NEF Handis are perfect for rechamberings. I have done 22 Hornet to K Hornet, 30-30 to 30-40, and then to 30-40 AI, 357 Mag to Max, 22 Hornet to 225 Winchester. The 225 Win was my first, done in 1970. The 30-30 is still my favorite with my 30-40 a close second. If I fall over another 30-30 it will be AI'ed too. Best of luck with your ideas. Please keep us posted.

[Levergun 94]

Best of luck with your ideas. Please keep us posted.

Thanks.  I think I already know which way this idea is going.  Should have the rifle, and 'extra' barrel in a month or so finances allowing, then I'll see from there.  Hope to start handloading soon after that, if I can decide on equipment .....
Been a LONG time since I had a rifle, since having to sell off my old ones.  Want to make sure I do it right this time  .
I'll definitely keep ya posted.  Thanks again,


Tim

[nomosendero]

Crush fit or not, observe the case dimensions of the two rounds relative to the shoulder. Yes, it headspaces on the rim, but with the
diff. in length to the shoulder, you will have case life & ejection problems. Case life will suffer & stuck cases are invited.
 
Never said that the pressure was a problem as the Handi is chambered for the 30-06 cased rounds, where did that come from?  Do it yourself or use a "quack" gunsmith, (the only one you will find to do it), & go ahead & have the problems is what I suggest. You will
not have a 30-30 AI, but a Wildcat with a slightly longer configureation that you use 30-30AI dies for.

Good luck!

[nomosendero]

Tim, don't you have any input in this matter? I think it has been covered a couple of times.

[quickdtoo]

This may not be what you want to hear, but my opinion on the matter is that there have been several that have done .30-30 Ackleys that have not had any problems shooting them, case life may be an issue tho, but if that's the only issue compared to a normal spec Ackley chamber, I see no reason to not take advantage of the little extra performance it offers, if case life is extended some, that's even better.

As I see it, because the chamber isn't a true Ackley spec, they aren't Ackley imrpoved, but are ackley improved-improved chambers. I just had my .280 Remington Handi rechambered to .280 Ackley Imp-Imp by Wayne York who is certainly not a "quack" gunsmith.

His opinion of the .280 Ackley in a single shot is that it can be done safely, but factory ammo can't be shot in it, which he told me up front, it's strictly a handload only option. I'll be using Nosler Custom .280 Ackley brass, so it won't be too much extra effort to do the fire forming, which will probably still have to be done, I won't know until I get the barrel back this week to see how much headspace is there, loading the bullet into the lands with start level charges should do the trick to completely fire form the cases to my chamber.

He has done many, many .35 Whelen Imp-Imp rechambers for Alaskan hunters that want the extra case capacity, by not setting the barrel back he creates the Imp-Imp chamber.

Because the .30-30 is a rimmed cartridge, fire forming isn't the problem that a rimless case presents, but since there are several here that have done the conversion, some even by hand, it seems doable, although not ideal.

Tim

[nomosendero]

Well Tim, as you know the Imp. Imp. is not the same thing as merely doing the 30-30AI, which is not a valid comparison. Is it not true that with your Imp. Imp. will have dies properly set up for your chamber, therefore not the same situation at all. You might want to mention why the rechambering you will get is not just a plain 280AI for those who don't yet know.
And please don't imply that I would be calling Mr. York a quack gunsmith, since this is not the same thing, wow! I plan on using him soon myself for a 338-06. Since you mentioned Mr. York, why don't you ask him about merely re-chambering a 30-30 Handi to a AI
& post his reply?

In a rather weak way you have proved my point. As you said, the case life is an issue. And since we are talking about ejector barrels,
what about the possibility of stuck cases with rounds fired in a chamber not cleaned up properly.  Npw if instead you can get a 30-30
Imp Imp chamber with dies to match, great. This is not almost a good conversion, it either is or it isn't in my view. As was mentioned before, the Krag would be nice, as well as other rounds.

So no, I am not into getting answers I want to hear, I am not the PC type. It either is good or it is not.

[Fred M]

Tim.
The subject 30-30AI  was reluctently answered by me. I knew that I would get an ear-full by knowledgable detractors. I am becoming more and more reluctent to answer any questions on this forum and defend what are known to be estabished facts and common procedures.

Recently I was accused to provide handloading advise that would blow up guns and bodily harm the shooter.

It is not unusual to have an AI chamber that does not handle the factory ammo.
I desgined a 280AI reamer and had it made by PTG. This chamber did not even handle the 280 brass without modification. This design was used by target shooters in Australia with a great deal of success in long range competition.

I did not know Nosler made 280AI cases, what a good deal. Eh man, try the Reloder 22 in that 280AI.

[quickdtoo]

Nomo,

You asked my opinion on the .30-30AI, I told what I know about it, and how it applies to the .30-30. As far as I'm concerned, I have 3 other .30 cal rifles that have far more power than a .30-30AI, so I don't feel the need to rechamber either of my .30-30s as they are fine just the way they are.

You might want to mention why the rechambering you will get is not just a plain 280AI for those who don't yet know.

Not setting the barrel back makes the chamber an Imp-Imp by Wayne's definition, plain and simple, that part isn't hard to comprehend as far as I'm concerned.

A .30-30 reamed to Ackely without setting the barrel back, certainly sounds like an Imp-Imp to me according to Wayne. What it's called is irrevelavent as far as I'm concerned, if it works, it works. It could be named a .30-30 whatchmacallit for all practical intents and purposes, and whether factory ammo can be fired in it, that would depend, I don't think I would do it, but I'm not interested in it and the reason why I never offered my opinion on it in the first place as I have no experience or interest in it. Certainly those that have done it see no problems, so who am I to tell anyone that they shouldn't do it, as long as they are aware that's it's not ideal. As long as they're aware of the caveats, let them make their own decision.

But for someone who wants a little more performance out of their existing rifle, I don't see that it is all that big of a deal, it obviously works, albeit there are some caveats. If someone is interested in rechambering their .30-30 to ackley, let them be the ones to contact their smith, I don't recommend doing a hand reaming even though there are those that have done it, since a reamer rental is almost as much as the cost of a rechamber done by a smith.

My .280AII reloading may involve die modification, I don't know yet, that remains to be seen, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, I'm starting with a .280AI Redding neck sizing die set, and also have a .280AI body die if I need it. Wayne certainly wasn't concered about it, specially starting with .280AI brass.

Fred, the brass isn't cheap, but available, I think it's the only Ackley brass they offer.

Tim

http://www.noslershop.com/cgi-bin/virtualcatalog/CatalogMgr.pl?cartID=b-8702&template=Htx/sample6.htx&SearchField=category&SearchFor=280+Ackley+Improved+Brass&hdr=280+Ackley+Improved+Brass&displayNumber=55

[nomosendero]

Tim, nice dance!
You said "not setting the barrel back makes the chamber an Imp-Imp by Wayne's definition, plain & simple, that part isn't hard to comprehend as far as I'am concerned". So, if it is plain & simple, does that mean that Wayne is using a true 280AI reamer & not cleaning up the existing chamber?

If not, then the Imp Imp is not an Ackley. And no, fireforming the 280AI brass in you chamber
would not be a problem as it is close for fireforming, but you could not use the factory 280 brass, right? Just the same, you can fireform 30-30 Fact. ammo in a PROPERLY re-chambered AI. But the 30-30 Handi would be Imp Imp. I have more powerful 30's also,
but that is irrelevant, but I do have a 30-30AI Cont., hand reamed & I got a good deal on the gun with the barrels & scope. This barrel is accurate, but the cases are good for 2 loads after fireforming, not good at all. Brass on ALL cartridges flow from the web.
With the case wanting to flow to the slighty longer than AI chamber, case separation is rapid, you could load down, but then you are back to 30-30, so why.

With the 30-30AI factory chambered barrel like the Custom shop offer, case life is absolutely great & it is a great round. I just wanted to point this out because most people want to shoot factory rounds at times or have the ability to do so in an Ackley. I think that newbies should know the ins & outs of this, but I will not point it out again, not ever!

Fred
I was also reluctant to answer, but for the opposite reason & as stated before, I never will again.
If you designed a reamer & changed the specs. ANY from Ackley, then it is not Ackly Improved. The same way if we change the specs. of a 300RUM, 7X57 or any other cartridge & have a reamer & or die made for it, it is no longer that cartridge. So, it should be called something else & the used should know when he cannot fireform factory in it.

From now on, if I see this AI, belted mag, short mag stuff with Handi's, no comment from me.

I would love to see the names of COMPETENT GUNSMITHS who would re-chamber the Handi to 30-30AI & call it an AI.
 
So, load her up & have fun.

I am done with this thread.

[quickdtoo]

I'm done too, never wanted to start with it to begin with , those that want to do it, let em, they've heard the pros and cons of doing so, whether it's called an Ackley is a moot point, it's still an improved of some sort. It's apparent that those that have done it, don't have problems.

FWIW, Handi35 has three .280 Ackleys done on Handi barrels, so obviously it can be done and without consequence, just don't plan on shooting factory ammo in it.

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,97534.msg1098247458.html#msg1098247458

[Swampman]

Wouldn't factory ammo just fire form to the chamber?

[Levergun 94]

Well folks,


Thank you all for the input.  Contacted a few gun-smiths for their opinion.  Will do a few more thorough info searches on the net, and through my old books.....

Good hunting folks.


Tim

[Fred M]

In the 30-30AI or a constituent thereof, a factory load can be fired or 30-30 case fire formed by other means.

The case is held back at the rim, the walls are expanded and straightened to about
.014" per inch alpha angle or a bit less depending on design, the shoulder is driven forward to a new location, the case shortens about 10-12thou in this process.

Most version have a .350" long neck and a 2" total case length. But a better case length is 2.0239 and .300 neck length minus 0.012 would be better. In a Handi with a standard 2.039" 30-30 chamber length, it should be fully utilized, since you can't shorten the chamber.

A smith should take a chamber cast to see how far in he can ream the shoulder.
A reamer without a rim would be best.

[mt3030]

Wouldn't factory ammo just fire form to the chamber?

Yes, it does very well.