Author Topic: 454 vs 500s&W (Read 7133 times)

mk454 · « **Reply #30 on:** November 03, 2006, 03:34:12 PM »

my response is more towards many responses on this forum, not necessarily this thread, and from the "idiots" i mean gunwriters. anyway, i wasn't implying anyone was saying something "bad" just showing how when something bigger comes out what was once acceptable and adequate suddenly isn't. it's hilarious to me. to see the linebaugh seminar one year where all the big bore pistol calibers best loads varied by all of 2 inches was something i paid attention to. i didn't care which one was 2" further than the next, it just showed me that whether it's a fast as all hell 320 grain 454 (or faster .460 for that matter) or a slower big .500 or .475, they all did enough to get the job done. period. and to me, my 6" FA is much much smaller than my bud's 8 3/8" .460. nice gun as well. also like the BFR's in the biggies. almost bought a .500 today.

to illustrate what i mean, tell a bunch of gunwriters that a 30/30 will still kill an elk and you'll get a shrug and a "well......yeah, but" however, you just gotta have the latest ultrashort mag.

i'm all for the bigger the better, i want a .500 for no other reason than it's size and that it's the biggest but i'm sure not gonna kid myself one is suitable for a bear and the other isn't. the garrett's in .44 mag have been responsible for stopping brown bear charges so i fell confident they'll all do the job.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #31 on:** November 04, 2006, 12:01:05 AM »

I must have missed that seminar. Ive been to a few and ive seen drastic differnces in penetration. Not that a 500 or 475 did a bunch better but more then anything proper bullet alloy and velocity. Given all are proper a heavy .45 bullet will come pretty close to a big bore. But for the most part a .500 or especially a .475 will about allways come out on top. A heavy for caliber bullet in a .45 is 350 grain. Before you argue that you can go heavier Im talking practical weights here. By practical i mean bullets that can be stabilized in the rate of twist that most guns are made in so that they will not only be able to be shot at a decent velocity but will be stable enough for long range flight. In a 475 i put the practical top end at 440 grain and about 480 for the .500s. Now at those weights and pushed at about 1200 fps which is about optimum for cast bullet penetration my moneys on the .475 with the .500 pretty close behind. The 45 will do some serious penetration at that level but it will be lacking by probably 20 percent agianst the big ones. Mostly due to the bullet weight differnces. I wont argue that there isnt some exceptions I shot my 44 bilsey one year out there with 340 ballistic cast lfns at 1200 fps and it ran right with the big boys. But keep in mind that was for two shots. If i would have averaged 20 it probably wouldnt have. Honestly they all do a great job if the bullet is right and the speed is right. Some bullets do better then others. IF your bullet fails in anyway such as fractureing or even mushrooming in the smallest way penetration will suffer drasticaly. Weve done alot of handgun penetration testing and have about standardized on a 5050 ww/lyno alloy its tough enough to stay together and it a little more ductable then lynotype or water dropped bullets. Ive seen water dropped bullets crack but honestly have never seen a lynotype bullet do it. Another advantage to the 5050 bullets is they carry a tad more weight then lynotype and im sure that helps a bit. If you want to see real penetration Try some of kelly shlepps punch bullets. There made from brass and are so tough you could reload them and use them over after the most severe testing. They will drive deaper then about anything and im sure its due to the fact that they stay so uniform when driving through tough testing material. Another neat thing about them is there not limited by my 1200 fps rule. You can push them at rifle velocitys and they even drive deeper. Shot out of a 50 alaskan at 2000 fps theyve came right out the back of our test box and are probably still going somewhere!! I guess my point in this ramble is that heavier bullets do better on average and it gives some superiority to the real big guns. But properly loaded a 44 or 45 caliber gun will give some serious performance. Im not a fan of the .454 or .460 but if i could afford to shoot punch bullets Id say in either at 1500 fps theyd put the 45s on equal ground with the big guns shooting cast.

mk454 · « **Reply #32 on:** November 04, 2006, 09:45:05 AM »

i certainly wouldn't accuse myself of keeping track of all the linebaugh pen. seminars but the results i was referring to some results i saw a few years back where difference b/w the best .454 load and the best .475 load was all of 2" which was essentially meaningless and certainly less than 20% and i'd certainly agree that bullet design factors into it more than size/weight in many instances. until there's something a bit more reliable as far as test medium than wet newsprint i'm just not buying the huge difference. not saying there isn't one, just arguing as to what's adequate in the field and what's not. the results they've gotten leave a lot of room for interpretation on the seminar results i looked at. several .454 and even a fairly slow .45 colt outperformed a .500 load on one seminar that differed from one of the best .500 loads tested only by velocity, same bullet if i'm not mistaken. so velocity does play a role. not to mention, and i've not attended one, but on the first few seminars results it was quite obvious that there were vastly more types of bullets and various loads shot out of the .500 and .475's than out of the others. there were several big boy rounds that were outpen. by the smaller pistols but i get your point.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #33 on:** November 04, 2006, 10:01:34 AM »

you did make a good point as the validity of penetration tests. Nothing is scienctific when it comes to testing. One bullet can find an old ones hole in the paper and go farther then it should. The only way to do it fair would be to change paper every time and that wouldnt be practical. I guess in the real world an animal isnt a very consistant target though either. Bottom line is they all will penetrate pretty well. What you get with a bigger cast bullet is a slightly bigger wound channel. I can preach how my linebaugh shot through two bison like butter but i saw a kieth loaded 44 special do the same.

mk454 · « **Reply #34 on:** November 04, 2006, 10:15:15 AM »

certainly not practical to change the paper after each cylinder or load, but if i'm not mistaken hasn't the .475 done a bit better than the .500 smith thus far, now the results i saw were a bit older than what's current but i'm pretty sure that's due to better bullet design as the smith 500 should, with an over .500 grain bullet at a higher or equal velocity outperform the .475 with a 440? saw some results somewhere that had a .500 smith with the velocities hitting somewhere around 1400fps with a bullet over 500 grains barely breaking 40" on the pen. tests? you've been there, i'd be interested on your input.

corbanzo · « **Reply #35 on:** November 04, 2006, 11:08:11 AM »

I never really cared much for penetration tests... it is true that breaking through bones is important if you want to stop and animal from running, but when hunting and going for vital shots, most animals just aren't that tough.

Take two buckets, fill them with fine sand, and shoot one with a bow and one with a .30-06. What is the result? That the bullet from the 06 will get stuck in the sand and the arrow will go through the bucket. An arrow penetrates better than any bullet ever will, but it doesn't drop an animal quickly. The reason that bullets drop animals is because of energy expansion upon resistance from the hide and flesh. Getting hit in the heart with a 250grn bullet from a .44mag is going to kill anything that walks the face of this fine earth. It is true that there are extreme cases (elephants) where more weight and speed is necessary to carry this bullet to the heart, but these as said before are extreme cases. If I shoot a brown bear in the vitals with a .454 or a .500 without hitting large bones, the bullet is going to end up in the same place, out the other side. If I hit him in the shoulder with the same two, it will break his shoulder very well, limit his movement, and kill him a little more slowly, but still kill him.

There are different actions by these bullets which can give them distinct advantages.

Large caliber bullets carry more energy (inertia) than smaller grain bullets, which means it takes more resistance to slow it down. That more resistance comes with the larger size, energy transfered, damage done.

Smaller caliber faster moving bullets slow more quickly because they dont carry as much inertia when hitting a relatively motionless target, and therefore have a very fast expansion of energy, causing damage and killing animal.

Due to these characteristics there really won't be a huge difference in the penetration of the bullet. The faster bullet is going to do more damage upon impact, and the slower will have a more even energy transfer.

It is pretty east to figure out though, if you take a gun like the .460Mag, you can have a heavy bullet going really fast, meaning lots of energy, more energy transfered, and more damage to the target.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #36 on:** November 04, 2006, 12:45:51 PM »

the .475 will usually out do the .500 line to. As a matter of fact it will usually outpenetrate about anything. I cant explain totaly why but it has been proven over and over. Cobonzo what your not factoring in is in reguards to cast bullets anyway all the velocity does is deform the bullet and when it does penetration suffers. Look at all the testing and youll see with cast bullets out of the best alloys penetration peaks at about 1300 fps and even less with softer alloys. I know of a couple cases where light for caliber 400 grain .500s pushed fast failed to put down bison because the failed to penetrate through the shoulder to the vitals. The bullets deformed (one actually broke) and they only went in a matter of inches. Now if that same shot would have been taken at 1000 fps i have no doubt the bullet would have shot through the buffalo and a good long wound channel would have been the result. With any caliber its a balancing act of bullet weight speed and alloy and to get good penetration more thought has to be put into it then just kicking in the afterburners. Thats why I will stand behind my believe that with cast bullets a properly loaded 6 shot 45 colt will do anything a 454 or 460 will. If you want more power you need to go up in caliber not speed.

mk454 · « **Reply #37 on:** November 04, 2006, 01:45:03 PM »

that's why it's more an issue of bullet design, according to what is known physics wise, with the proper design the .500 will outdo the .475 with the proper bullet, whether that's been put together or not yet i don't know. i shoot the corbon 320 penetrators and they give me better trajectory than .475's and still offer plenty as it's been used to take elephants, cape buffs and brown bears so i guess i much don't care beyond that and if i truly thought i would need more i'd buy a .475 then again i just might cuz it's one of the great calibers for pistols. now, i spend much more time plinking ram silhouettes at 300 yards and that's where the .454 shines to me, if i were in front of a buff i'd go .475 though either would do either job if i'm making any sense. i fully intend on owning all the above.

this is where the garrett's shine, the .45/70 hammerhead, i believe 530 grains or whatever doesn't deform much at the speed it's launched and it's performance as far as penetration goes leaves those shooting big doubles rubbing their heads however, take the big double and if they'd eventually figure they don't need those round nose solids and start using 900gr lbt's out of those .600's things would look interesting. i've always wondered why the .50 alaskan, when ordering bullets from WW guns doesn't offer a flat nosed big meplat hardcast load? makes no sense to me.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #38 on:** November 04, 2006, 10:37:44 PM »

weve done quite a bit of testing on the .50 alaskan and the trouble with it with cast again is speed. It will shoot a 480 lfn to fast if shoot at full power level to avoid bullets deforming with about any alloy. In most cases a 500 linebaugh handgun will outpenetrate it. I witnessed my buddy shoot a 600 lb red stag with his using 480 balliticast lfngc cast by me out of 5050 ww/lyno shot at 1800 fps. The bullet broke the near side shoulder and came to rest under the skin on the far side. Not spectactular penetration by a long shot. We cut the bullet out and its nose was riveted pretty bad. Ill say it over and over Once a cast bullet deforms in anyway penetration suffers drastically and thats why ive allways preached the fact that theres a sweetspot for cast between 1100 and 1300 fps. Now if you want to see something impressive load that .50 alaskan with punch bullets and run them at 1800 to 2000 fps. Id about bet theres not an african big game stopping rifle that could compare to the penetration that load will give. I think it would shoot through a t-rex stem to stern!

RLB · « **Reply #39 on:** November 05, 2006, 05:17:46 AM »

I want a freedom arms in .50AE with a 4 1/2 barrel...just can't swing that much money..I sure wish ruger would chamber there superblack hawk in .50AE..

Robert...wanting lobster on a catfish budjet..

corbanzo · « **Reply #40 on:** November 06, 2006, 09:52:22 AM »

look at the magnum research BFR, they make a .50AE model, good gun, and doesnt break the bank.

If bullets are breaking, then the alloy used in the metal is too hard, too much deformation and it is too soft, got to have a good balance, mk454 is right about the design. I also agree that speed does make a consideration with penetration, but with the right bullet design, faster is usually going to make more penetration. There are more considerations than just how big and how fast that go into penetration. If you use the wrong bullet coming out of a .500 smith you can have penetration problems, and I am in agreement that the bigger calibers will outperform smaller ones in putting down an animal.

It is interesting to talk about the .460 SW, with a factory 200 grn bullet, they are getting just over 2200fps. Hornay makes a 240grn .454 which breaks 1900fps, some loaders out there I'm sure could break that 2200fps mark with a 200 grn out of a .454, safely? Who knows. The 500SW is hitting 1900fps with a 350 grainer though... thats just pure power, nobody can argue that.

Casull · « **Reply #41 on:** November 06, 2006, 11:04:52 AM »

Quote

An arrow penetrates better than any bullet ever will

I seriously doubt that. My .454 with 300 grain hardcasts will completely penetrate a 10 inch diameter live pine (I was bored). I've yet to see an arrow do that.

Casull · « **Reply #42 on:** November 06, 2006, 11:09:21 AM »

Quote

It is interesting to talk about the .460 SW, with a factory 200 grn bullet, they are getting just over 2200fps. Hornay makes a 240grn .454 which breaks 1900fps, some loaders out there I'm sure could break that 2200fps mark with a 200 grn out of a .454, safely

I agree with you on that one. I remember reading an article in Gun's and Ammo a long time ago, where they were actually getting close to 2100 fps with a 240 grain bullet out of the .454 (7 1/2 inch barrel Freedom Arms revolver). My Lee loading manual also lists top velocity of 2045 fps with a 240 grain.

corbanzo · « **Reply #43 on:** November 06, 2006, 01:25:58 PM »

With penetration, I was talking in regards to vital shots, an arrow is always going to pass through the animal, and keep going if it doesnt hit big bones. The arrow doesnt have the energy or speed to go through hard stuff, why you dont take shoulder shots with a bow as many do with guns. I have cut down trees with my .454, my .458, 12gauge, 7.62x54 (I play a lot) It would take looooooong time with a bow, takes 4 shots to cut down a 10" tree with a .458 lott, just in case anyone needs this info.

mk454 · « **Reply #44 on:** November 06, 2006, 04:15:16 PM »

of course, you can look at the big smith and see it's obviously on paper got the most power, and with the proper bullet design it'll be the most devastating on game. this is why it all boils down to what do you want to carry, how much power vs. recoil vs. gun size do you want. if you want to just get crazy and end this debate, handload the heck out of a .45/70 with over 500 gr. of cast bullet to similiar pressures to a low pressure .454 round and voila, you got something nothing else in a factory revolver is gonna touch, you just might not be able to shoot it and control the recoil so the question is what's adequate.

well, there's been several documented cases where the .475 and .454 have penetrated through a cape buffs shoulder and penetrated through the body cavity. there was also an incident where a garrett hammerhead .44 mag penetrated straight through and broke a brown bears front shoulder on it's R-side and continued to break through the L rear hip, obviously killing the bear as the bullet did a wonderful job of tearing through the body cavity as well. the garretts are wonderfully designed and cast to a proper hardness to not be too hard or too soft. this tells me that any of these will do the job with the proper bullet. my cousin loves a .44 and shoots it well, he does not handle the full bore .454 or anything above the .44 well but is lights out with his .44. when we hog hunt for big texas hogs, there's no way he's undergunned b/c he's got a cylinder full of garrett's and the results are just awesome. i'm sure they'd be awesome on a .500 as well, but with certain loads terminal performance will not, and we've seen this, not be up to the level of his .44 so.........................................

in regards to the .454 vs. the .500, decide what you want to carry, large gun or larger gun, decide if you want to handload and how much you want to spend on rounds, then decide what gun you want, if you want the precision of a FA, go with the .454 or .475 or even the .500 wyoming express, if you want the most variety and readily available factory bullets, go with the .454. it's all really personal choice.

also....................do not fear the BFR. they took a hit on quality control b/c of the first couple years out having some issues. the ones i have seen in the last 2 years have been by far nicer than rugers. a local gun store has a .500 smith there and i'll tell you, it's one nice gun with fit and finish far beyond the rugers in the store. balances much better than it looks like it would. i'm getting very tempted to jump on it. i think the .500 will be around for a long time and once there's an appropriate reasonably affordable lever action chambering it i think it's popularity will explode.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #45 on:** November 12, 2006, 06:40:56 AM »

Wow guys this has been an excellent read...

I carry either one of my 2 5.5" barreled cons. serial #ed 45 Colt s/s Ruger Bisley Vaquero's with 330gr Jae-Bok Young WLNGC's @ 1260fps average velocity or one of 2 Super Redhawks in 454 Casull with 360gr CP WLNGC's @ 1520fps or their 395gr WLNGC's @ 1520fps in the 7.5" barreled gun and I haven't had a chance to chronograph the velocities in my 4.25" barreled gun yet.

I also just picked up 200 405gr Beartooth WLNGC'd that I am going to load in the 454 Casul's and 200 of his 345gr WLNGC's in my 45 Colt's.

I would love to have one of my Bisley Vaquero's converted to 475 Linebaugh and the other one in 500 Linebaugh but just can't afford that right now. Till then I will defend my life and the lives of others with 45 caliber guns.

Also I find any gun larger than the SRH's to be just to big to carry around all day so the S&W's or the long cylinder BFR's will never be part of my collection for this reason.

corbanzo · « **Reply #46 on:** November 12, 2006, 10:12:33 AM »

I need to start loading so I can get over 400gns in my .454... jealous equals me.

454Puma · « **Reply #47 on:** November 18, 2006, 05:41:48 PM »

I can agree with why! Just can't understand why anyone would want a pistol that weighs as much some rifle's? Can't be worn a your hip in a holster! That's what a pistol are for, to be worn on the hip! All 454's I know of are worn on the hip in a holster and I don't consider T/C's pistols they are rifles without a butt.

RANGER RICK · « **Reply #48 on:** November 19, 2006, 12:26:28 PM »

Quote from: 454Puma on November 18, 2006, 05:41:48 PM

I can agree with why! Just can't understand why anyone would want a pistol that weighs as much some rifle's? Can't be worn a your hip in a holster! That's what a pistol are for, to be worn on the hip! All 454's I know of are worn on the hip in a holster and I don't consider T/C's pistols they are rifles without a butt.

Guess I better send my hip holster back since they do not make any

?
I do prefer to use a shoulder holster most of the time . I had a custom one made for my S&W 500 PC HUnter with the 10.5" barrel .
You are right about the revolver being heavier than a lot of rifles .
When I have mine loaded with a half pound of lead , five rounds of 700 Grain WFNGC bullets it does make for a heavy revolver but that has not stopped me from taking it on hunting trips here in Alaska .
My next custom chest holster is going to be for my S&W 460 XVR Hunter with a 14" barrel .The special holster will need a pouch to hold my quick detachable bipod .
I very seldom use a rifle anymore for hunting since I got the 500 and 460 .Thank you Smith and Wesson .

RR

Prebanpaul · « **Reply #49 on:** November 20, 2006, 11:40:16 AM »

JUST GET ALL THREE GUNS A AND CARRY THEM IN DIFFRENT AREAS. YOU KNOW ONE ON THE ANKLE, UNDER THE SHOULDER, ONE ON THE HIP. SHOOT TWO HANDED AT THE SAME TIME, DONT WEAR EAR PROTECTION ITS OVER RATED. DONT WORRY ABOUT ACCURACY YOU WILL STILL HAVE ANOTHER GUN TO GO WITH. GOOD LUCK

EdK · « **Reply #50 on:** November 21, 2006, 10:57:21 AM »

Myself I'd like to see more work done with heavies in the 454 (maybe it has & I just haven't seen it yet). I understand the 454 has a bad reputation for sharp recoil with light bullets loaded fast. I didn't really buy mine for that purpose - more for medium/heavy bullets loaded moderately. You see, I wasn't looking for all out power in the FA. I just appreciated the fine craftsmanship in the FA and did not want to pour money into customizing Rugers to try and mimic a FA83.

My hat is off to all of you who own and shoot the 475 & 500 calibers in FAs, BFRs, S&W x-frames and such. We all understand some do because they need the added power for either the game hunted or for protection or maybe they just plain want to shoot them for whatever the reason - it doesn't matter. Understand that all I want is a handgun that weighs 50oz or less and is capable for whitetail 90% of the time and black bear or moose the remaining 10% - nothing more - no griz, no bison, no big 5. I don't want to have to pack any more steel than is necessary for this particular purpose. The 6" FA83 in 454 is almost exactly the same size and weight as a 5.5" Ruger Bisley in 45.

I noted it was mentioned a Ruger in 45 Colt can do almost anything a 454 can. Perhaps so. But then by extension we'd have to conclude a 480 do everything a 475 can. The case relationships are almost the same (1.285" vs 1.383/1.4")

I just came in from working on my truck before checking this post. I had to loosen a 1/2" nut earlier. I chose to do so with a 3/8" drive socket. I could have done it with a 1/2" or 3/4" drive socket or even an impact wrench but I did not. Why? I believe in "the right tool for the job" Would it have been wrong to choose something else? Of course not.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #51 on:** November 21, 2006, 08:25:45 PM »

Well said EdK.

RollTide · « **Reply #52 on:** November 23, 2006, 08:16:08 AM »

I am really interested in the "punch" bullets Lloyd is talking about. I thought it was illegal to make solid brass bullets. Can you give me more information on these?

Roll Tide

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #53 on:** November 23, 2006, 08:41:11 AM »

I need a 600 Nitro Express revolver!

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #54 on:** November 23, 2006, 12:01:49 PM »

they are not truely solids. When he first made them they were and we tested a bunch of them. NOw they have the base drilled and filled with lead and a very tiny hp cavity to make them legual but for all of that they act the same as the originals As a matter of fact they seem a little more accurate probably because of the added weight in the base due to the lead.

Quote from: RollTide on November 23, 2006, 08:16:08 AM

I am really interested in the "punch" bullets Lloyd is talking about. I thought it was illegal to make solid brass bullets. Can you give me more information on these?

Roll Tide

RollTide · « **Reply #55 on:** November 23, 2006, 03:20:30 PM »

Lloyd,
Thanks for the info. I would really like to try some of those. Could you hook me up with the contact info on where to obtain them. It sounds like those would be just the ticket for cooking up some dangerous Game protection loads for my 445 Supermag. I was seriously contemplating buying a 500 or 460 for dangeroius game protection (the 445 will do everything I need for hunting with a revolver), but I am now thinking that it will do anytihng I need in the lower 48 for protection as well. I might still consider a 460 or 500 for a protection sidearm if I ever get ot hunt AK, but that may never happen. I really appreciate the knowledge that you and the others contribute in threads like these.

Thanks to everyone.

Roll Tide

454Puma · « **Reply #56 on:** November 24, 2006, 05:59:11 PM »

RollTide
Na save your money get a Ruge SRHr 454 for way less than a S&W. And the 454 will kill anything you want dead just as well!!

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #57 on:** November 25, 2006, 01:30:02 AM »

Quote from: 454Puma on November 24, 2006, 05:59:11 PM

RollTide
Na save your money get a Ruge SRHr 454 for way less than a S&W. And the 454 will kill anything you want dead just as well!!

Let him get what he wants. It is his decision not our's. Unless you are going to get it for him.

S.B. · « **Reply #58 on:** November 25, 2006, 02:47:29 AM »

Quote from: RollTide on November 23, 2006, 08:16:08 AM

I am really interested in the "punch" bullets Lloyd is talking about. I thought it was illegal to make solid brass bullets. Can you give me more information on these?

Roll Tide

Try typing in" Barnes Bullets" in the search engine on your computer?

Scott T · « **Reply #59 on:** November 25, 2006, 04:01:32 AM »

I have nothing against the .454 Casull. I just could never work up to the point where I could shoot it well. The blast and recoil simply were too much.

I moved to the.500 Linebaugh and could not be happier. You can increase the power of a pistol in two ways. You can raise the velocity level up and try to compete with the rifle cartridges. This works and everything that can be killed has been killed with hot loaded .45 Colt and .454 Casull rounds.

Or, you can raise the caliber and bullet weight and get similar results with lower velocity and less muzzle blast.

The new S&W .500 seems to do both. In my Linebaugh, I stick with 400 plus grain bullets at around 900fps and I don't really think there is anything out there that I cannot take. My wrists and ears take this load much better too.