Author Topic: Question for Jim  (Read 1698 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Question for Jim
« on: October 24, 2006, 10:08:17 AM »
Jim, not that I'm sure I'll ever be able to make it to Africa but I do have a couple of things working either one of which IF it goes as hoped for should allow me to so I'd like to start thinking on what to bring "just in case" it all works out.

What is the minimum in your area for cape buff which is really the only one of the big five I'd have an interest in? I can't see me going to Africa and not trying for cape buffalo, kudu, gemsbok, wart hog, impala, zebra, wildebeast at least.

I know folks generally toss around the .375 H&H as the minimum but is it really?

I understand that at least in some countries/areas the 9,3x62 is also allowed. Is this the case in your area?

If not is it the .375 H&H or just a .375 something?


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Offline JJHACK

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Re: Question for Jim
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2006, 04:25:41 AM »
Been away on business, and hunting for a while, sorry for the delay in replying.

9.3's are fine but the 375HH is really a better choice with a 300 grain premium softpoint like a Swift Aframe. The real issue is not so much the legal minimum but the thought of another guy poking holes in your buffalo. If you go with the right stuff and make a solid hit that shows significant impact and proper animal reaction to the shot the PH will know that it was a good hit and you will follow up and find the bull.

If you go with anything remotely marginal the thought of follow up shooting will have been planted in the mind of the PH before you ever strike out on foot to begin the hunt. Some important issues here are that when you shoot free hand very well at the practice range in front of the PH at 50-75 meters and use a gun that has well known and respected  power to do the job, the PH and the outfitter will just let the chips fall where they may unless an obvious wounding  issue comes up.

Speaking from my experience only, I have a very good feeling when a guy shows up at camp with a rifle he shoots well and that's got the power for the work ahead.  I have had a couple kids hunting that brought over a 243 to shoot with. Instantly I knew there was not going to be any quartering away shots taken and nothing at extreme distance, or where any thick bush was going to pose a problem. Those limitiations and the minimal cartridge set the parameters for the hunt. Buffalo would be no different.

So when you want to go on the hunt of a lifetime you should plan for the worst most difficult situation and then everything else will be covered. I very much like the 375HH with a 300 grain softpoint, or the 416rem with a 400 grain SoftPoint bullet. Less then those make me a little cautious but not afraid or nervious I just have to be aware that the level of "crumple" power is not the same. So follow up shooting might be more likely.

The Buffalo does not have "Nine Lives" but it might seem like that from time to time. Of the buffalo hunts I have been the primary or secondary PH for very few have been more complicated then shooting an American Bison from a herd. Most have been uneventful, and somewhat routine. Certainly hunting Kudu in my expereince is far more entertaining and complicated. Buffalo are the most available of the big five, or what are considered dangerous game species. They are way overpriced for the hunting value they provide in my opinion. I would sooner hunt 10 more animals of various species, or spend that money in the parks touring. 8-12K for a single trigger pull on what might be like shooting a bison is not my personal idea of a wise investment of hunting funds.

For every hunting adventure with a Buffalo that has a dangerous event there are probably many thousands that end like shooting cattle. As an example all of my PH's myself included have been charged multiple times by Gemsbok, Wildebeast, bushbuck, wartbuck, Nyala, but none of us have had any close encounters with Buffalo where death or injury was likely. Guys like Capstick and Mark Sullivan have made a living telling stories about the danger of Buffalo. There is no question they are dangerous. Everything wounded in Africa is dangerous. These are not like NA game that will lay down and die. They all come for the predator when they are cornered.

Buffalo has always been a funny thing to me. So many people willing to spend a small fortune on a single animal, rather then shooting 10 animals  or doing the parks tour for the same price. If you only go to Africa one time in your life you have got to drive across Kruger Park for a 4-5 day trip. Those sights and thoughts  will be with you for the rest of your life
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Question for Jim
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2006, 06:30:31 PM »
I figured you were likely off hunting.

I must admit I'm a bit surprised at your response tho even tho I am familiar with the high regard in which you hold the .375 H&H. I was under the impression that the 9,3x62 is just about as well thought of in Africa and European hunting circles as is the .375 H&H.

In comparing them I find the difference to be so small I just can't imagine it being significant. Now that in context that I've never seen anything shot with either of course. But looking at the hard numbers I find this.

Bore size .375" vs. .366" : I just can't see .009" amounting to much.

So I take the area as I've seen you reference that as a comparison that makes the larger bores so much superior. Here the .375" shows us an area of .5887 sq. in. and the .366" shows us an area of .5746 sq. in. or a difference of .0143 sq. in. That is an increase of 3.9%. Again I just cannot see that as having significance purely from a numbers stand point.

The 9,3 286 grain bullet is only 14 grains less than the 300 grain you can get for the .375 that you favor. Again I just cannot fathom those 14 grains being noticed by the animal that takes either bullet. The velocity difference in the Nosler Manual is 100 fps in favor of the .375. Even factoring that 100 fps and that 14 grains I just cannot see it mattering. That's sorta like what a .22 caliber air gun pellet would have from a pump air gun pumped one time rather than the normal eight times. Ballistically it's just not significant.

But as I said I've not seen anything hit with either. I was just operating under the assumption based on a lot of reading of both that most folks who have used both see no noticeable difference in their effectiveness.

Have you seen enough use of the 9,3x62 to have noted a significant difference or is it just that you've seen the .375 used effectively so much you just lean toward it?

I can get one as easily as the other obviously and can't imagine recoil would be any different with one over the other. I just don't really like belted rounds and don't like the magnum name attached to rounds as a personal bias.

For now I'm just trying to figure this all out "just in case" either or both of those things we have working actually come to fruition. Should they then the money for such a hunt will be available to me and I'd sure like to come hunt with you. Now if neither does I don't honestly think I'll be able to put it together. For now I'm just in a wait and see mode but am also in a preliminary planning mode as well.




Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline JJHACK

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Re: Question for Jim
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2006, 07:31:41 AM »
For some reason the date within my computer was wrong when the time change took place over the weekend. Becuase of that I could not log onto this site. It did not seem to effect anything else except that a number of sent Emails did not show up in logical order when I was looking for them. In anycase this was the intended reply now a bit late since it took me so long to figure out the problem
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There are a number of 9.3's out there. not all have the same case capacity. The 9.3X62 is the middle range case size, there is also a 9.3X74. As you point out, it's very much like a metric 375HH. But now here's the crux of the situation.
 
Few Americans come with a 9.3 but most Europeans split the choice with a 9.3 using a misc case size, and a 375HH.  Another part of the puzzle is that in most cases the PH you have with you will have never met you before and knows nothing of your shooting skills or firearm knowledge. Something that is a bit strange to many American hunters is the low level of experience with ballistics that most African Professional hunters have. I've met less then a handful in my whole career that reload, or really care about the cartridge differences. They know cartridge X works with Bullet X and they use it on everything without another thought. It's not something they dwell on or give any time too. 99% of their experience is from first hand hunting time with clients shooting game and using the rifle, and ammo they bring. Not a bad level of experience, but you certainly have to dig deeper into the science of ballistics and loading ammo to make some fair comparisons.
 
So keep this thought in mind when I spill the next bit of detail.
 
Most of the hunters that arrive from Europe with a 9.3 will have Factory ammo. Reloading is no where near the common event in Europe that it is in the USA. Factory 9.3 ammo is much like factory ammo in the USA. Loaded for function in any age rifle from 1906 through today in the case of a 30/06 for example. Getting Factory ammo in many European countries does not involve Swift A Frames, BarnesX Partitions, TBBC, etc Etc. They can come loaded with typical Cup and core European generic Ammo loaded to some limited liability level for any rifle chambered in this cartridge. There are some Premium Euro bullets, but it's a roll of the dice whether they are used!
 
Now the PH see's you arrive with this cartridge and has the past history of seeing it used by a dozen or more prior hunters.
 
He's also seen several dozen hunters from America show up with a hot handloaded 375HH's using a premium bullet.
 
This is where the mind set comes from on the performance he's seen. He has no idea what has gone on inside that case, or what the details are on the loading. He simply does not care and has no functional knowledge of the ability to create additional performance in a case, or with a bullet choice. ( Hence the reason so many PH's still prefer solids, they have seen way to many cup and core bullets break up)
 
Now compare the basic load from a factory cup and core 9.3 to a custom tuned handload with a premium bullet in a 375HH. It's not that the handloaded 9.3X62 will not work. It's the mind set and the knowledge of the past events that put this PH into this mental state or backup shooting mode. It's not at all that the 9.3 loaded as well cannot work equally, it's the past experience that he's going on.  It also will not matter what you try to explain to him ahead of time with your loads and bullet choice. He's heard the line's from countless hunters in the past about how great they shoot, and how fine their rifles are. The great majority of hunters coming to camp have this need to boast about the rifle, scope and ammo they have as if it were their own child.
 
Shortly after these amazing stories about skills and equipment the first shot at 80 yards freehand is a miss. No credibility is given to a single hunter until the game is dumped 3-5 times or so. Then he may ask about the rifle, scope or load. Prior to that he's heard the same line of crap about handloads and equipment 100 times before.
 
So at the end of the day the credibility of the hunter is only known after the hunt, never prior to seeing him shoot.  Raving about custom handloads is not going to impress or sway the opinion of any PH. They only know what they have seen in the past.  You and I and many readers here may know what is possible, and we know what the results will be. ........But,....... It's being averaged against lots of others with the same choice that may not have had the same exact load or equipment.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Question for Jim
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2006, 07:42:30 AM »
Thanks Jim, that was an interesting dissertation. I guess I'd not thought of it that way but certainly can see the point of view of such PHs. I guess I had a somewhat incorrect impression of how African PHs viewed the various 9,3s based on multiple magazine articles I'd read on them in years past. I had sure gotten the impression from those rags that the 9,3 was very highly thought of. I guess not huh?



Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline JJHACK

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Re: Question for Jim
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2006, 08:15:37 AM »
I'm not too familliar with anything written by an African PH about the 9.3 in American Magazines. I am with American "gun writers" who have hunted in Africa, but not an actual PH who has written something.

If these African PH's have the skills to write about the firearms then they are likely in the minority of PH's that really have a good grasp of the loads and potential. I have had a number of hunters with the 9.3 and never saw a reason to worry. But a few other PH's I work with seemed to prefer the 375HH much more then the 9.3's.

As you say not much difference on paper but when the averages are considered in real life opinions change. I would not hesitate to shoot anything on earth with a 9.3 using qualtiy bullets and a good load. It's legal and quite functional. Remember also that when Guys like Taylor were using the 375HH and the 300HH with great success (taylor claims over 3000 buffalo with the 375HH) the loads were well below todays potential. The 30/06 today far exceeds the original loads for the 300HH when it was introduced! Combine that with an X bullet or a bonded core bullet and imagine the difference.
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Offline deltecs

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Re: Question for Jim
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2007, 07:40:27 PM »
The 9.3x62 Mauser according to Taylor was thought of as equal to the .375 H & H on Plains Game.  Kevin Robertson's book "The Perfect Shot" lists a group of African classic calibers, approved if you will, by most PH's.  Mr Robertson is a PH and veterinarian.  His book confirms what your posts say about the African game anatomy and American hunters shooting too high.  Anyway, he highly recommends the 9.3x62 for plains game hunting and lightly criticizes the .375 H &H for too much penetration.  I'm not in disagreement with anyone, just posting additional info.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd 2009. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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