Author Topic: What makes a ML traditional to you?  (Read 2321 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline manofthe45

  • Trade Count: (36)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 834
  • Gender: Male
  • Bucks Hang On The Wall. Does Fill The Freezer
What makes a ML traditional to you?
« on: October 26, 2006, 06:54:43 PM »
Seems like a pretty simple ? doesn't it. Believe me when I say that it is not.  The ? is not what makes a hunt traditional so please no BS about cloths or other noncense.  My ? is strickly about the gun.
    If you go out and buy a flintlock with a syn. stock shoot RB with open sights is it still traditional?
    If you shoot conigals does this nullify the traditional name?
    What about percussion sidelocks are they still considered traditional?
    If I put a scope on it whether brass or no higher than 1 or 2 power made out of plastic can  I    put the traditional name on it.
I think everyone should be able to get the point of my ? by now.  I could put a million examples out there, but I shouldn't need to.  This is not a traditional Vs inline ? so lets not let it become one please.

   The ? again "what makes a ML traditional to YOU"


P.S.  Lets all play nice so that GB doesn't have to come spank any of us.  Posts should be about what traditional means to you, not attacks by LOUDMOUTH FOOLS on those that are disabled or have an impairment!!!!!!!!!
NRA Member

Offline KW

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 54
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2006, 09:29:58 PM »
That's a good question manofthe45. And I like to repeat that this discussion is only about the weapon and nothing else. Like man said no clothing, lube, moulds etc.. just the weapon.

I would think that a good cut off date for what would be considered "traditional" would be the end of the American Civil War. The reason for this was that this was the last time that muzzleloaders were advanced technically and mass produced for profit and after the Civil War technologies left the muzzleloader and focused on cartridge or other breech loaders. Yes I am sure at least one person will point out the ever so popular "Well they had inlines and bolt action in the 1800's" and if those people want to use a replica of those that would be awesome. It would be neat to see those out in the field, but to put those in the same league as the replicas.....yea right.

The same time frame applies to scopes and projectiles. Conicals are cool for traditional because the use of elongated projectiles were known in the 1700's, but once again these are not sabots. And no a patched round ball can not in anyway be considered a sabot. Strange yes, but people do think that way. And traditional scopes are avialible for the same price as the ever popular modern ones, so scopes are ok to as long as they fit in this time frame.

So to recap I think that to be considered a "traditional" MUZZLELOADER (remember we are only talking about muzzleloaders here) It would have to be based in design, function, and shoot projectiles that were created before the end of the American Civil War.

Offline victorcharlie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3573
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2006, 01:40:48 AM »
I consider my Thompson Center Renegade traditional.  It's a percussion.

I'm not really sure how to define it, but one thing for sure, synthetic stocks I wouldn't consider traditional.

From Webster:

tradition
One entry found for tradition.
Main Entry: tra·di·tion
Pronunciation: tr&-'di-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English tradicioun, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French tradicion, from Latin tradition-, traditio action of handing over, tradition -- more at TREASON

1 a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom) b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable <the bulk of traditions attributed to the Prophet -- J. L. Esposito>

2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions

4 : characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition>

To me it's the style of muzzle loader my ancestors might have used.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Wolfhound

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2006, 01:42:16 AM »
Seems like a pretty simple ? doesn't it. Believe me when I say that it is not.  The ? is not what makes a hunt traditional so please no BS about cloths or other noncense.  My ? is strickly about the gun.
    If you go out and buy a flintlock with a syn. stock shoot RB with open sights is it still traditional?
    If you shoot conigals does this nullify the traditional name?
    What about percussion sidelocks are they still considered traditional?
    If I put a scope on it whether brass or no higher than 1 or 2 power made out of plastic can  I    put the traditional name on it.
I think everyone should be able to get the point of my ? by now.  I could put a million examples out there, but I shouldn't need to.  This is not a traditional Vs inline ? so lets not let it become one please.

   The ? again "what makes a ML traditional to YOU"


P.S.  Lets all play nice so that GB doesn't have to come spank any of us.  Posts should be about what traditional means to you, not attacks by LOUDMOUTH FOOLS on those that are disabled or have an impairment!!!!!!!!!

Original or replicas made the same way only. Replicas must be in same caliber as originals shooting same projectiles (a R.E.A.L. bullet is not traditional, nor is a Ballett). Replicas of Civil war muskets must use original style minie balls. No mass production rifles (T/C hawken, Lyman GPR for example). Any ignition type prior to the end of the Civil War (flint, percussion, Matchlock etc.) For scopes, original or replicas only (same cut-off as the rifles).

Offline jlbeebe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 102
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2006, 03:16:18 AM »
I have a tc hawkins .54 with a wood stock made sometime in the 70's. It has adjustable sights that look nothing like they had in that era but I still consider it to be traditional.

Offline jh45gun

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4992
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2006, 06:44:07 AM »
To me if it has a percussion side lock or a flint lock or a underhammer it is traditional. Does not matter what the twist is as different makers made different twist. Every one thinks One in 48 is standard as that is what the Hawken Brothers used, but that just happens to be what they used. Other rifle makers that made their own barrels had different twist. As far as projectiles round ball or conicals are fine and I will not get picky as to design of the conical as long as it is cast and made of lead. If you have a REAL fine  Or a Maxi Ball  not all of us can afford custom molds for maybe an origonal  style conical.  As long as it is not an inline to me it is traditional. I mean lets face it guys those that have a TC and consider it traditional in the purest sense it is not. They are a Non Replica according to Sam Fadala in his book "The Complete Blackpowder Handbook" and I think old Sam knows his black powder guns pretty well. So that said lets not get too picky. If it has the traditional style locks then consider it traditional as now days there are so many variations with out counting the inlines. I did not make that statement to cause an arguement but to show that even some guns that look traditional in the purest sense is not they are a non replica yet for all intents and purposes could still be called traditional due to the lock used ect.  One of the forums I go to is strictly traditional no inline talk allowed, but they talk about the CVA Bobcat which has a composite stock so that must be ok with them boys as long as the lock is a sidelock.

As far as the scopes go it would be great if some one made a repo that would only cost a couple of hundred that the average guy could afford. The ones made now cost way over my budget and I would bet a lot of guys could not affored them with out scrimping and saving.  For that fact I am of the mind that even though it is not traditional looking a scope of modern design is ok on a traditional gun if it helps you be able to kill cleanly.  On this I will argue all day long. We are talking hunting here not playing mountain man or Daniel Boone. For the sake of the animal hunted if you need a scope you should be able to use one. Second choice would be a peep sight with a fiber optic front sight as they really work well at low light conditions. No that is not PC either for some I do not care making the shot and killing the animal rather than crippling it because you cannot see the sights well is the consideration here, Traditional gun or not.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline roundball

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 375
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2006, 08:01:16 AM »
For purposes of my answer / opinion, there are two categories to place a ML into...Traditional, or Modern High Performance.

In my opinion, the whole distinction or design point of a "traditional Muzzleloader" has its roots in the "early American traditional muzzleloading era".
One school of thought ends that era around 1820-30 when caplocks were invented, limiting "traditional" to Flintlocks.
Another school of thought ends the era in the Civil War when cartridge guns were invented, and so includes Caplocks.

IMO, I include both Flintlocks and Caplocks as "traditional", but with the Flintlocks clearly being the primary firearm for many decades in our country...and caplocks appearing after 1830 and for a shorter period of time as cartridge guns began appearing soon after.

Therefore:
A traditional muzzleloader is both a Flint and Cap side lock ML, with exposed flint and cap ignition systems, open "iron" sights, designed & styled with a look and feel that anyone from the early American traditional muzzleloading era would immediately recognize as being representative of those rifles commonly used back during that era...and that means no scopes.

A traditionally oriented design of a ML may be a hand crafted expensive custom-built precise replica of a specific model rifle from "back in the day", or it may be a mass produced muzzleloader with a more general traditional design, like a TC, CVA, Lyman, etc.  The custom built precise replica may be more period correct than the other but both are clearly in the category of "traditional design" from that early American traditional muzzleloading era...and that means wood and metal as opposed to plastic.

A traditional projectile from that era would primarily be the lead round ball, with the late period inclusion of a lead bore size conical...and that means no plastic, no sabots, no copper jacked bullets, no plastic skirt bullets, no alternative metal bullets, no modern bullets, etc...if a projectile was not commonly used in MLs back during that era, it would not be considered traditional.

The traditional propellant is real black powder which was the traditional propellant used in traditional muzzleloaders back during that era...and that does not include modern made 'BP substitute' powders or "smokeless" powder.

Our whole country was founded with the traditional muzzleloader as the common firearms technology available at that time, and the whole point of someone acquiring, learning, and mastering the use of more primitive "traditional" muzzleloaders is to accept that challenge and keep that part of our history alive.
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline jlbeebe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 102
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2006, 11:00:50 AM »
I work with a guy who bought a civil war replica called a whitworth. It shoots an octagon shaped bullet called a bolt. Very interesting firearm.

Offline victorcharlie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3573
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2006, 12:47:08 PM »
Because  post 9-11 ATF regulation classifies black powder as "explosive material", it's becoming more difficult to find.  While black powder substitutes are not "traditional", lots of shooters of reproduction period firearms are now shooting other than
true black powder.   To some, there is no other choice.

The discussion of mass produced firearms not being traditional raises some questions as most black powder and black powder substitutes are "mass produced" and under the same defination then not traditional.

The problem as I see it is that if we're not careful we will come up with a "politically correct" defination like what happened with the so called "assault rifles".   Not a good thing IMO.

 



"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Ramrod

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1440
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2006, 06:51:32 PM »
Deleted by Graybeard. Ramrod you're OUT OF LINE once again. If you cannot play by the GBO rules then you simply CANNOT play here at all. I'm tired of having to tell you this. You have a lot to offer here but if you can't follow the rules then we really don't need you. GB

A traditional gun is a what was TRADITIONALLY used. Black powder, iron sights, wood stock. Bullet or ball, both are historically correct. Takes a little more than an IQ of 60 to operate. Inlines, pellets, etc. are not traditional. Good, this is YOUR view and that was what was asked for. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you. GB
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline Ramrod

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1440
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2006, 02:54:51 PM »
Well now I'm one confused SOB. I never expect anyone to agree with me. But my post is deleted with a warning, and then appears with a statement from GB that it was what was asked for? What gives?
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline roundball

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 375
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2006, 04:15:07 PM »
Because  post 9-11 ATF regulation classifies black powder as "explosive material", it's becoming more difficult to find.  While black powder substitutes are not "traditional", lots of shooters of reproduction period firearms are now shooting other than
true black powder.   To some, there is no other choice.

The discussion of mass produced firearms not being traditional raises some questions as most black powder and black powder substitutes are "mass produced" and under the same defination then not traditional.

The problem as I see it is that if we're not careful we will come up with a "politically correct" defination like what happened with the so called "assault rifles".   Not a good thing IMO.

I want to clarify something in your post before too many others read it...there was NO CHANGE what-so-ever to BlackPowder regulations as a result of 9/11...the Patriot Act made no changes to recreational use of blackpowder...and it's available to any / all citizens.

Unless an individual state has passed override legislation, Federal ATF regs allow up to 50 pounds of blackpowder to be stored in a single family dwelling for recreational purposes without any paperwork, approvals, permits, licenses, special storage magazines, etc, etc.

Blackpowder regulations have not changed in years and years...it has always been classified as an explosive (needlessly in my opinion) instead of a propellant due to it's low rigniton temperature.

The modern BP substitute powders have very high ignition temperatures so they're classified as propellants and can sit out on a shelf at Walmart...the same high ignition temperatures are also what has caused the never ending parade of hotter and hotter ingition systems to try and get them to ignite reliably and consistenty every time...no such problems with real blackpowder.
 
While Blackpowder is not available at Walmart it can be purchased from various Gun Shops, and most any of the large sporting goods supply houses that carry muzzleloading supplies, and mail order places like PowderInc, Graf & Sons, Maine Powder House, etc...and Goex can be purchased directly from one of a couple dozen Goex distributors nationwide.

I use a pound of Goex a month shooting every weekend year round, so I buy it by the case (25 one lb cans) from a Goex distributor in Moscow, PA...and bulk purchase is also the cheapest...gets me a delivered price per can of only $10.75/lb.....it's sitting on my front porch a few days later in a simple cardboard box...I keep it in the closet of a spare bedroom that I use for my hunting things, etc.

Goex is outstanding powder...fast, clean, accurate, totally reliable...best price / performance american made black powder there is, made right down in LA.
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline duke21

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2006, 04:26:16 PM »
now i have a 50 cal percussion sidelock gun made in spain with no other  names on it.   it originally had a brass blade front sight and a screwy buckhorn type rear site that was not worth a hoot.   I visited a local gunsmith to see if he had a different rear site taht would look good and i could use.   when i got the gun back it had the modern glow sites on front and back.   i will admit these are great for seeing what you are aiming at,  but wonder if i have wandered a bit off the traditional path too far.    otherwise the gun is very similar appearance wise to our" pre civil war" ideal.    so because i have a supposedly mass produced gun made in the 1980's or 90's with glow sites, am i not in the traditional club anymore?

duke21

Offline Slamfire

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1028
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2006, 04:36:17 PM »
Ill agree that conicals during the 1700s looked more like acorns than ballets, but they were found to be less accurate than the riflemen desired. Successful conicals during the 1800s looked much like round nose pistol bullets, although grease grooves were progressively more prevalent. I'm willin' to accept the ballets and R. E. A. L s in the shorter lengths as close enough to traditional. I'm also willin' to accept percussion, even though it was the preferred ignition system for less than 40 years, just like the fellahs that had their flintlocks converted. I'm also willin' to accept underhammers as I know they were in full scale production at the time of the Texian War of Independence. So wood stock, iron/steel barrel, flint or percussion ignition is pretty much traditional in my mind. And should some fellah show up with a 1/2" brass tube, barrel length telescope, I'd let him use it, you can't hardly see through the danged things.  ;D
Bold talk from a one eyed fat man.

Offline victorcharlie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3573
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2006, 05:46:20 PM »
Black powder regulations have changed, or at least the law is now being enforced.    From the ATF's web site:

17. What activities are covered by licenses and permits?

Licenses are issued to explosives manufacturers, importers, and dealers. Any individual or business entity intending to engage in any of these activities must first obtain a license. A permit allows acquisition and transportation of explosives in interstate and foreign commerce. [§ 55.41]

A separate license is needed for each premises where an explosives business or activity is conducted [but see Questions 29 and 31]. Only one permit is needed by a permittee who uses explosives in more than one location. [§ 55.411

18. May black powder be sold without a license?

No. Anyone who sells black powder, regardless of quantity, must be licensed as an explosives dealer. [§ 55.411

(2) No form is required for the purchase of up to 50 pounds of black powder for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms or antique devices. [§ 55.105]

So, while you and I can buy up to 50 pounds of black powder, if we want to sell black powder we need a license.  The license fee takes a lot of the profit from black powder dealers.  There are also new requirements for the storage of black powder beyond the 50lb limit which also run up cost to the sell who wishes to store more than 50 lbs.  Add the has mat shipping fees and the profit is gone.

While there are still people who deal in black powder, you and I can't find it a walmart, dicks, or most of the other large retail stores.  In some parts of the country, black power is near impossible to find. 
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Graybeard

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (69)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26946
  • Gender: Male
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2006, 05:49:13 PM »
Well now I'm one confused SOB. I never expect anyone to agree with me. But my post is deleted with a warning, and then appears with a statement from GB that it was what was asked for? What gives?

What was DELETED was your personal attack and name calling.

What was left was your opinion. That's exactly what was supposed to be posted.

So bottom line is I deleted what you should NEVER have posted to begin with and left that part that was acceptable. Pretty simple really. Follow the rules and things get left. Break them and things get deleted. Break them often enough or grossly enough and membership gets deleted.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline doegirl

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2006, 06:01:17 PM »
I think it is a matter of aesthetics, as opposed to historically accurate.  I have no idea as to how  "historically  accurate"  my white mountain carbine is.  Have a hunch it's a mutated, dwarf version of a hawken rifle ;).  When I think traditional, I envision a sidelock (percussion or flint), wooden stocked, blued steel gun with a hickory (o.k. wooden)  ramrod.  Iron sights are the standard, but if your eyes aren't that good, hopefully no one gets crucified for having glass ontop the gun. 

Offline bearfat

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 417
  • Gender: Male
  • "Nothin but giant rats with stubby little tails"
    • Deer/Bear hunting Northern Minnesota
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2006, 06:59:55 PM »
This gun has on rare occasions failed to go off. That's what makes it a traditional for me. 
 

bearfats cabin:    http://buckmountainchateau.com/

Offline jh45gun

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4992
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2006, 07:36:37 PM »
This gun has on rare occasions failed to go off. That's what makes it a traditional for me. 
 



Just curious were you using black or a sub? I know folks that used pyrodex when it came out said it did not go off too well in cold weather.  With my side lock after I have cleaned it I shoot about 6 caps to make sure it has dryed off any oil then I shoot a fouling shot to make sure it will go bang. I do not have to worry about my underhammer as that is direct ignition.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline bearfat

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 417
  • Gender: Male
  • "Nothin but giant rats with stubby little tails"
    • Deer/Bear hunting Northern Minnesota
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2006, 08:01:13 PM »
Pyrodex is all I've used. It was 5 degrees above zero in pic. Before I put powder down barrel I spray gun scrubber in nipple, let it dry, and take a blow torch to it cooking out any oil or moisture. My partner has experimented with other powder. We both leave the guns sit outside in the cold for days once we load them. He left one in his outhouse for a couple months before he fired it. Went off ok but not sure what powder he was using then, was not pyrodex.

The night of this pic when I cleaned the rifle I had the brainstorm of using a very small patch to get way down there. Well it stayed down there, unknown to me. I had a hangfire 1 week later when we were hunting again, fortunately, it was at the end of the day when I was shooting the ball out. I still hit the pop can I was aiming at surprisingly.

It took a long time but I finally retrieved that little stupid patch way down in there close to the nipple.

Nipples seem to cause my biggest problem. Too tight and percussion caps fail to go off if not seated properly, too loose and I'll look down to see the percussion cap is gone.
bearfats cabin:    http://buckmountainchateau.com/

Offline roundball

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 375
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2006, 01:34:09 AM »
Black powder regulations have changed, or at least the law is now being enforced.    From the ATF's web site:

17. What activities are covered by licenses and permits?

Licenses are issued to explosives manufacturers, importers, and dealers. Any individual or business entity intending to engage in any of these activities must first obtain a license. A permit allows acquisition and transportation of explosives in interstate and foreign commerce. [§ 55.41]

A separate license is needed for each premises where an explosives business or activity is conducted [but see Questions 29 and 31]. Only one permit is needed by a permittee who uses explosives in more than one location. [§ 55.411

18. May black powder be sold without a license?

No. Anyone who sells black powder, regardless of quantity, must be licensed as an explosives dealer. [§ 55.411

(2) No form is required for the purchase of up to 50 pounds of black powder for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms or antique devices. [§ 55.105]

So, while you and I can buy up to 50 pounds of black powder, if we want to sell black powder we need a license.  The license fee takes a lot of the profit from black powder dealers.  There are also new requirements for the storage of black powder beyond the 50lb limit which also run up cost to the sell who wishes to store more than 50 lbs.  Add the has mat shipping fees and the profit is gone.

While there are still people who deal in black powder, you and I can't find it a walmart, dicks, or most of the other large retail stores.  In some parts of the country, black power is near impossible to find. 

I have no interest in debating anything...I was just correcting misinformation before too many people read it.
The whole focus of my reply was clearly in the context of correcting misinformation regarding the recreational use of BP by individuals.

To reiterate, blackpowder has been categorized as an explosive for decades, and there were no changes to the ATF regs regarding the recreational use of blackpowder...regs for recreational use are still written today as they were before 9/11.

In addition, I also clarified that blackpowder availability is not an issue at all...department stores like Walmart and Dicks sporting goods are just that..."department stores"...not gun shops or muzzleloading supply houses... people simply have to shop at places other than Walmart for real muzzleloading needs.

Blackpowder is available at hundreds / thousands of places nationwide...just have to go get it or order it...a simple phone call puts a UPS/FedEx delivery on a front porch in a few days...done it for years...before and after 9/11.
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline roundball

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 375
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2006, 02:00:36 AM »
This gun has on rare occasions failed to go off. That's what makes it a traditional for me. 
 
Back in the late 80's/early 90's I missed a nice 6 pointer at less than 50yds due to a hang-fire with Pyrodex in a TC Hawken caplock..actually started to relax my hold and was barely starting to bring the rifle off my shoulder when it went off...still safely but over the Buck's back.

Later on when I transitioned to Flintlocks I had to switch to real blackpowder for them and was so shocked at how fast, clean, accurate, and reliable real blackpowder was, I rezeroed all my caplocks with it as well...my self included, I've never known anyone who has gone back to BP subs once they've used real blackpowder...plus, it's far less expensive than non-traditional powers, and is "the real deal" so to speak...if you ever get a chance to try some Goex, I'd sure suggest giving it a go.
 :)
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline victorcharlie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3573
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2006, 02:24:53 AM »
Again, you are correct about the recreational use not changing.

What has changed are the rules for manufacturing, dealers, and transportation.

The homeland security act of 2004 upped the tax, created more paperwork, changed storage requirements as well as transportation requirements.  In short, it ran up the cost of dealing in black powder.

The end result is that most dealers can't make a profit on it and handleing it subjects them to searches and audits at any time.  To much risk for not enough money.

I've had this conversation with several of the small local dealers and the all tell me the same thing.  "I've got to sell a lot of powder to make any money".

Also, Walmart is the number 1 gun dealer in America.  Cabella's, Bass pro, Sportsmans Warehouse, and a couple of the other big chains are major players each selling a significant portion.   IMO, they are the major muzzle loading players, selling far more muzzleloading supplies than any of the local mom and pops.  The fact they don't sell some items doesn't take away from that fact, it just means they either arn't making any money handleing them, or the risk is to high.

The fact is, most guys prefer to buy a propellent off the shelf during there lunch break.  If black powder isn't on the shelf then most will buy one of the others.  The avid enthusist like yourself will always find a way to get it.  Most won't go to the trouble.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Snowshoe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 394
    • http://www.playfarmers.com
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2006, 08:56:13 AM »
My Lyman Deerstalker is not a replica of anything, but is traditional to me. It is a .50 cal sidelock and I shoot a patched round ball. To me traditional is a flint or sidelock, wood stock, and it shoots a lead conical or preferably a patched round ball. Inlines, pellets, and sabots have no place in muzzleloading for me.
Snowshoe

Offline greyduck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Posts: 1
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2006, 04:04:32 PM »
My opinion is that if it has stainless or plastic involved(in any way) then it's not traditional. This is coming from a guy that does have a T/C cougar with stainless hardware. I don't take it out much since I built a trade gun but I keep it around because it's really pretty.

Offline roundball

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 375
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2006, 04:38:09 PM »
Actually, the dulled down stainless on the Cougar is supposed to represent "pewter"...which was used... ;D
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline willysjeep134

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2006, 07:14:07 AM »
1) it can't have plastic or stainless.
2) sabots are taboo, bore size conicals, minies, and prb are all fine
3) Has to use caps or flintlock for ignition. No 209 primers or primed pistol brass
4) has to have a rotating hammer. No inline strikers.
5) no smokeless propellant, substitutes are OK because sometimes that's all you can get

I would say specifically, rifles like the Omega with a falling block to hide the cap aren't traditional. Things like copys of the Remington rolling blocks with nipples screwed into the breech walk a fine line. Scopes, in general I don't like. Anything that tries to create the impression that it could have been made before about 1900 is traditional in my book.
If God wanted plastic stocks he would have made plastic trees.

Offline jh45gun

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4992
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2006, 06:30:02 PM »
I would not call a muzzle loader that is a copy of a rolling block or a falling block traditional as these guns were cartridge guns and while they look old timey they were never a muzzle loader until now. Pope may have used these type of guns in a muzzle loading fashion but they still were not true muzzle loaders.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Plink

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 83
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2006, 11:13:45 AM »
There's a difference between traditional and "historically accurate". A historically accurate gun is a reproduction of a known gun, and in keeping historically accurate, would use the proper bullet and load for that gun. Traditional can be a looser translation. A flintlock, sidelock or underhammer using percussion caps, etc. A sidelock in a plastic stock, while an abomination IMO, is nothing more than a traditional gun in a plastic stock. There are many "traditional" style guns that aren't replicas of anything. Thompsons guns aren't really a replica of any particular gun, not even their Hawken is historically accurate, but the are "traditional". As much as I dislike stainless steel and plastic, there are traditional styled guns that are stainless in plastic stocks. They aren't period correct or historically accurate, but they are traditional in design. That's what sets traditional guns apart from modern high performance inlines.
Mike

We have enough youth. We need a fountain of SMART!

Offline CROWHOP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: What makes a ML traditional to you?
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2006, 12:42:06 PM »
 
 
Quote
I've never known anyone who has gone back to BP subs once they've used real blackpowder...plus, it's far less expensive than non-traditional powers, and is "the real deal" so to speak...if you ever get a chance to try some Goex, I'd sure suggest giving it a go.
 :)
Quote
This is true.I used pyro at first and was getting hang fires after about 10 shots.Then I tried goex and never turned back.I even traded 2 cans of pyro for 2 cans of goex made in the 70's.The old  goex powder was excellent and I even used it to kill a deer this year.My only muzzle loaders are 2 lyman GPR's and a cabelas hawkin,all 54 cals.The flinter GPR  and the cabelas hawkin arent historicly accurate but my GPR caplock is pretty close.I consider all of them to be traditional because of the ignition and the round balls I feed them.