Waco... Whats your thoughts?

[Matt]

In my research I have came across several videos that have made me question what I thought I knew about Waco. I really had no idea that so many people who were there are now saying that there was a cover up. Evidence that exposes several lies and some people for who they really are can be found with a search of the net. But I will post a video here that most will say has no merit but before you do maybe you should read on. It is in 2 one hour parts but if you will just watch it and see what it is saying the time will fly…


Waco: “A New Revelation” is the film that triggered a new Congressional investigation of the
Waco tragedy, and caused the Justice Department and the FBI to reverse their long-held positions on Waco
It has generated a firestorm of events unprecedented in the history of documentary filmmaking.

After six years of painstaking investigation, the complete story of the tragedy in Texas is finally coming to light.
This compelling feature-length documentary presents new revelations about the events that led up to the
deaths of 79 men, women and children at Mount Carmel on April 19, 1993.

In the spring of 1998, under the Freedom of Information Act, investigators from MGA Studio's film division
became the first private citizens to gain access to the Waco investigation evidence lockers.
What they found was shocking. Upon examination, the evidence gathered under the supervision of federal
officials appeared to contradict the FBI's congressional testimony, raising serious and disturbing
questions about events surrounding the siege at Mt. Carmel and the deaths of the Davidians.

Gene Cullen Since 1993, former members of the FBI, former Special Forces and CIA operatives have come
forward with new evidence to suggest that the FBI's claim is inaccurate.
Part 1
[gv=640,480]5510108493532885562[/gv]

Part 2
[gv=640,480]2962656895645965329[/gv]   

So first did you watch the videos?
Next what is your take on the subject?
Would like to know what people are thinking...

Matt

[Graybeard]

There was absolutely NO EXCUSE for the way it came down. If they wanted to serve a warrant they should have just walked up to the front door during daylight and did so. But oh no, they went in AT NIGHT and not thru the front door either but climbed in an upstairs window. They KNEW this was gonna spark trouble and when gunfire erupted this was then used as an excuse for all that followed. It was as blatantly illegal as what happened at Ruby Ridge and just as inexcuseable.

[victorcharlie]

There was absolutely NO EXCUSE for the way it came down. If they wanted to serve a warrant they should have just walked up to the front door during daylight and did so. But oh no, they went in AT NIGHT and not thru the front door either but climbed in an upstairs window. They KNEW this was gonna spark trouble and when gunfire erupted this was then used as an excuse for all that followed. It was as blatantly illegal as what happened at Ruby Ridge and just as inexcuseable.

We are very much in agreement on this one.......or, they could have served the warrant while David was taking his morning run.

[Graybeard]

Yup they had more than ample opportunity to serve the warrant without the bloodshed. I can see no reason for the way it went down other than they want to kill those folks. All the higher ups in this should have been tried for treason in my opinion as they sure were in gross violation of about everything the Constitution stands for.

That they got away with it with no more howl from the public portents badly for the future of this nation and freedom for Americans.

[Matt]

So it is safe to assume that most everyone is in agreement that the government committed mass murder at Waco then. Seeing as there is not anyone saying other wise.

Matt

[victorcharlie]

So.......what's the difference between a patriot and a terriorist?

[Mikey]

I couldn't watch the videos but my take on this has always been that the feds blew it worse than they have ever blown anything before and simply saw to it there wouldn't be any witness to disclaim the federal perspective. 

The assault on our freedoms, in Waco sticks in my craw, even today.  The feds, both batf and the fbi are quilty of the mass murder of unarmed women and children.  What really whizzes me off is with all the tough talk from all the hometown militias, not one dang Army of Anybody's Republic showed up to help.

They only had 125 federal agents outside that compound, and is someone going to tell me that Ann Richards never had the guts to call out the NG to stop that whole fiasco?  Where the hell was the elected Texas (By God your butt) leadership that allowed this to continue and by all means where the hell were all those tough talkin' (ain't gonna happen here) Army of the republicTexans who just let it go down.  Good grief, with only 125 feds there a couple of dedicated riflemen, much less a company of armed militia, could have put enough 'holes' in their enthusiam to have brought the confrontation to a 'stand down'. 

After what the feds did in Waco and in Ruby Ridge I figured the feds would just kill whomever they could to make it look as though their actions were justified, which means that if you wanna go home for dinner that night you had better hit them first.  Don't get me started.........................Mikey.

[Matt]

So.......what's the difference between a patriot and a terriorist?

.
Good question...according to the Patriiot Act and the recently enacted Military Commissions Act not much, not much at all.
.
.
..........................TM7

could not have said it better myself...
Matt

[WylieKy]

"Terrorist" and "Racist" are the new "Communist".  They are little more than catchphrases to appease (and repress) the masses.  A tried and true tactic used by many of historys most sucessfull leaders.

WylieKy

[ironglow]

  Mass murder...no other explanation..and it was not in the least necessary..

    Can't understand why the media was not all over that one !

[Matt]

Well think about it though... when was the last time that you can remember that the major media outlets were the first to expose something related to government...

The media is bought and paid for by the same folks who pride themselves on having the best government money can buy.

Think about it... are we as common citizens the ones paying millions of dollars for 30sec of air time... nope... the all mighty dollar rules this land... has for many many years...

Matt

[jonicar1]

Incredible video! Any further information on the "independent investigation" by John Danforth or the Senate investigations?

[S.S.]

Just Like Ruby Ridge !
Blatant Murder !
Janet Reno, Bill Clinton , and the head of the FBI
at that time should all be tried for it....
Was McVeigh justified if some of his family or friends were at
Mt. Carmal ? Ask yourself this.. What if you had witnessed some of your
loved ones being burned alive ? I'm sorry, But if he did have family
and or friends there, I can see why he wanted revenge on the ones who did it
The reason for such a speedy trial was to stop
anything Damning from getting out before they killed him too.
I have heard rumors of Militias in the South forming alliances to come to
each others aid if something like Waco happens to them !
I hope we never have to find out if the rumors are true.

[DWTim]

Is this a revised version of the film? Seems to me that it includes some more material that attempts to address some past criticisms.

The whole situation is only a slightly less jumbled masterpiece of disaster than it was over a decade ago. One point that bothered me is the flimsy research into the weapons violations. The ATF would certainly be honest about the law if asked directly (i.e. outside of the context of the Waco raid), yet the media and the film producer skip the obvious points. That is a disappointment, considering it is the premise on which the ATF acted in both this and the Ruby Ridge incident. 60 Minutes simply mentioned a list of items that were supposed to sound menacing, and the film producers include a video clip in front of the hearings that shows an obvious misunderstanding about the difference between full-auto (legal) and select-fire (illegal).

This piece addresses the matter far better than I can right now:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5369116450757675658

p.s. Note that this piece has the same bias as the previous videos.

[wncchester]

Small minded people with great power expect that power to be recognised.  It it isn't, they feel justified in crushing any impertinant upstarts, even to death if need be, to firmly establish their own importance.  That's the mind set of many - most? - professional government employees and political appointees.  Read, the FBI, BATF, Reno, Clinton and Lon Harruchi (sp? who shot Randy Weaver's wife when he felt "threatened" by her carrying a baby at her breast).  Such people feel threatened when any citizen doesn't quiver in their boots when they speak so, in their minds, such violence is justified to maintain civil order.

This opinion is based on a life spent in the company of "civil servants" as a civilian contractor.  Individually they are nice people, considerate and modest.  In company with others of their various agencies they change into an "us vs. them" attitude.  Non-govies are then viewed only as subjects to their collective powers.  In that mind, they had no problem deciding not to serve Koreash papers in town, they wanted to do it on his turf and under their rules.  Power corrupts their minds so badly they lose sight of practical approaches, witness the lady shot in Atlanta and the man shot in NY in the last few days - they didn't submit fast enough so they died.  Ditto at Waco.

I have believed since the day the raid occured that those back-suited, helmeted heros who climbed onto the roof and into the window got excited and shot thru the walls to hit their friends still outside.  With the mental attitudes so many of them, it is likely many of their own have been shot by "friendly fire" over the years but then blamed on the victims they were attacking.

The difference between a "patriot and terroist" is easy.  Real patriots don't aim to kill innocents.  Terriosts acually aim for the innocents, since their rage is unfocused and they can't get to the objects of their anger they just kill for the hell  of it.  OK, see the difference now? 

So, what should we call the tank and fire attack on Waco, slaugher of the innocent to get one weasel of a guy they were so afraid of and had defied them for weeks?  It ain't LAW or PATIOTISM!  And for sure the facts were hidden by those powerful government agents who exposed their anger at anyone determined not to give up under their power.  The powerful FBI, BATF, DOJ officers protected the peons on the ground because it was neccessary to cover their own asses.

[Mikey]

S. Sumner and wnnchester:  you men are both so correct in your perspectives that it's heart-rendering.  The old sinking feeling of having to go to bed at night with your doors barricaded and your means to defense so close at hand, for fear of the law that makes fatal mistakes and then tries to bury the witnesses and the truths, is so saddening. 

No such violence can justify the need to maintain civil order when there is no civil disorder.  And wnnchester's definition of the difference between a patriot and a terrorist is so accurate.  Thank you.

Lon Haruchi - yes, the fbi sniper who boasted he could put three shots into a quarter at 200 yds was frightened by a mother breast feeding her child.  Where's my rope!

S. Sumner:  When I first heard about the Oklahoma City bombing I said to my late wife - that's payback for Waco, and she agreed.  I hope the rumors you heard about southern militias agreeing to band together to prevent another such Waco are true.  I have said before that just a few dedicated riflemen could have put more than just a few holes in the fbi position and should such a thing happen again it is my hope that those militias would band together in a show of force to stop another government injustice. 

By God, if it takes the force of arms to bring this type of government sanctioned murder to a halt then so be it.

And wnnchester is right again with his NYC perspective.  A undercover, plain clothes cop follows 3 men out of a strip club and gets into an arguement with them and then stands in front of their car and they brush by him with its fender and he unloads his pistol into a car full of 3 unarmed guys and then his buddies join in - 50 rounds at unarmed men - Where's my rope.  Mikey.

[Skeptic10787]

To even suggest that the Oklahoma city bombing was justified is ridiculous. Murdering the innocent to avenge the death of others is just as evil, if not worse, than the original alleged act.
Waco at it's worst was an injustice, a mistake and a coverup of that mistake. None of you can say it was "blatant murder", because none of you were there. I'd like to see you walk up to one of the agents who was on the ground and call him a child killer in front of his wife and kids. Wait... did I just say... oh, that's right... those guys have families too. Those guys had a wife and kids too. No way you're gonna convince me that those men woke up that day planning to burn up some kids. Now, lets talk about what McVeigh... have any guess what his intentions were that morning?

The idea that militias should be set up to prevent this from happening again is about the worst thing possible. What will it accomplish? Do they think killing a few agents will make the government go away? The best answer is publicity... the american media loves government scandal. Any organization that feels it's being persecuted by the government will get top priority by the national media. The government received such negative publicity over Waco (and still does to this day) that I have doubts such a mistake would happen again.

[gutshot_again]

"To even suggest that the Oklahoma city bombing was justified is ridiculous."  I think you missed the point.  What I read was that in his mind (McVeigh's) it may have been justified.  I didn't read where anyone here thought it was justified or even suggested it was.

"Waco at it's worst was an injustice, a mistake and a coverup of that mistake. None of you can say it was "blatant murder", because none of you were there."  Oh come on, all the Feds would have to do was make thier circle and sit it out.  They did not need to bring in tanks, full auto's and the military.  They could have just as easily have served him in town.  Could be wrong, but didn't he offer to the local cops to come in and look around?  Instead the feds attacked.  My God, the compound is on fire and the Feds prevent the fire trucks from coming in?  And if it was nothing more than an injustice why did the cover up occur.

"I'd like to see you walk up to one of the agents who was on the ground and call him a child killer in front of his wife and kids. Wait... did I just say... oh, that's right... those guys have families too."  I would be more than happy to walk up to one of the agents and call him a child killer and an incompent in front of anyone.  Of course, I'd probaly have an "accident" or have my house raided on trumped up charge. 

"Those guys had a wife and kids too. No way you're gonna convince me that those men woke up that day planning to burn up some kids. Now, lets talk about what McVeigh... have any guess what his intentions were that morning?"  What, no one with families commits murder?  Suggest you check the prison population, I'm sure you'll find some upstanding citizens there with wives and children.

"The idea that militias should be set up to prevent this from happening again is about the worst thing possible. What will it accomplish?"  What are saying?  Read the federalist papers and you'll see the intent of the 2nd amendent was for just this reason.

"Do they think killing a few agents will make the government go away? The best answer is publicity... the american media loves government scandal. Any organization that feels it's being persecuted by the government will get top priority by the national media."  And what about the Weavers?  At the time that was not widely reported on.  Point is, if the media ignores or downplays gun related raids like this, where is the publicity.   Or in the case of Waco, I believe the media said the children that were being mistreated, which was not true.  Sounds to me like the feds gave the media false information to try to win the public over.  Of course, these were "gun nuts" so the liberals already wanted them dead.

"The government received such negative publicity over Waco (and still does to this day) that I have doubts such a mistake would happen again."  The only way it will never happen again is if the top dogs (at the very least Reno) would have been put on trail and hung in public.  Instead we had a cover up. 

Appartently you haven't thought this through.

You are to be congratulated, usually takes more then this to take me out of lurking mode. 

[Skeptic10787]

Wow. I got you out of lurking mode. I'm flatterd.
Just because I offer a different opinion than the others in this thread doesn't mean I didn't think it out...  but I appreciate your concern for my cognitive skills.

Not that I don't wish to defend my opinion, but I can only see this thread going in one direction.

I'll end my part of it now.

[Mikey]

gutshot again - thanks for responding to the skeptic.  My thoughts exactly.  Interesting thing about skeptics - they usually think only in one direction but at least this one has enough cognitive ability (Please note that I didn't say skill)  to see this thread isn't going in his direction.  I'm not usually so appreciative of skeptics and am glad he ended his part of this thread.  Mikey.

[nyhunter863]

I don't think anyone should forget that the Ruby Ridge incident happened under the Bush I administration.  Fingers are being pointed at Clinton, Reno, etc., for Waco, but it is interesting that none have been pointed at Bush I, or should I find that surprising?

[Skeptic10787]

gutshot again - thanks for responding to the skeptic.  My thoughts exactly.  Interesting thing about skeptics - they usually think only in one direction but at least this one has enough cognitive ability (Please note that I didn't say skill)  to see this thread isn't going in his direction.  I'm not usually so appreciative of skeptics and am glad he ended his part of this thread.  Mikey.

Back off. I offered an opinion that was different than the norm and I stood down when I realized it could only turn sour. The personal attack isn't necessary.

But since my opinion differs from that of the moderators, I'm probably just a troublemaker trying to start fight with those that "know the truth", right? 

[Graybeard]

But since my opinion differs from that of the moderators, I'm probably just a troublemaker trying to start fight with those that "know the truth", right?

No. You're as entitled to your opinion as any of us. I agree the personal attacks WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. Discuss the topic NOT personalities. You ALL know the rules here.

[fe352v8]

So what is supposed to happen when authorities are to serve a warrant?

Ignore serving the warrant because the guy and seventy of his friends and relatives live together, or the guy thinks he’s a mountain man? 

These guys and their followers were morons.  Normal people surrender to the authorities, retain counsel, post bond, and appear in court.  They do not barricade themselves in a house, with their wives and kids, and have a gun battle, over a minor weapons charge.

The last time some militias in the south rose up to defend something in this country, it did not turn out very well, for anyone, as I recall.

Was it an abuse of power, probably.
Was it excessive force, probably.

However if the subjects had surrendered to the authorities, it is probable that no one would have died.

They were MORONS

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[gutshot_again]

"So what is supposed to happen when authorities are to serve a warrant?

Ignore serving the warrant because the guy and seventy of his friends and relatives live together, or the guy thinks he’s a mountain man? "

Ruby Ridge - Let's see.  Weaver gets sent a letter telling him to be in court March 20th.  Was typo and should have been Feb 20th.  The judge knows this, and still issues an arrest warrant for missing court.  So the feds - on a minor weapons charge - flys jets overhead to take photos, set up cameras a mile and half away, brings a Special Operations Group (SOG) - a voluntary unit of the Marshals Service.  The commander of the SOG (Louis E. Stagg) recommends against any tactical assault, dismissing the indictement and the files sealed.  What do the feds do?  Attack.

Waco - As I said earlier, the compound is full of children (who the feds were there to "save") and the feds do a full attack.  By the way, why were the feds there to protect the children - isn't that a state issue?

Perhaps we're not talking about "normal" people here, but who were they bothering, who were they hurting, and what laws were broken before the feds started on thier entrapment rampages?  Merely for marching to the beat of a different drummer the authorites trump up charges at will and issue warrants based on that false data?  I can see how Weaver and Koresh would feel they had to defend themselves.

"The last time some militias in the south rose up to defend something in this country, it did not turn out very well, for anyone, as I recall."

Oh I don't know.  Last instance I know of was in 1946 in Athens, TN and turned out pretty good.  Do a google on "the battle of athens tennessee".  Or do you know of something more recent that didn't go as well?

A final thought - why was the goverment so anxious to spend around $3 million to make an arrest on such a minor charge?

[fe352v8]

Again what is our lawfully constituted authority supposed to do, when a person refuse to be served a warrant, ignore it because the person barricades themselves, along with their wife and kids, in a house and makes it clear they will use force to avoid complying with the warrant?

The objects of these warrants were as guilty of escalating the situation as the authorities.  Their actions precipitated the actions of the authorities, and I will grant you that considering the nature of the charges it was a gross over reaction.  That does not however, diminish the fact that if one makes the decision to engage in armed resistance against what is generally recognized as lawful authority, then the resistor must realize the response is most likely to result in the use of armed force.

These people either attempted to or successfully committed “suicide by cop”.  Their actions illustrate a complete disregard and concern for the welfare of their children and family.  They are / were MORONS

While the US justice system may be flawed, it does afford individuals a higher degree of redress than any other, these peoples decision to opt out of the socially accepted means of disagreement, with the laws that we have proscribed for ourselves through our equally flawed, but none the less more accessible than most legislative process, is what ultimately precipitated the deaths that occurred. They are / were MORONS.

Thank you for the note on the “Battle of Athens Tennessee”.   I guess that justifies the riots that occurred during the civil rights movements, and would make the Blank Panthers heroes?   Because I would agree that being disenfranchised is the manner described would warrant such behavior.  I also noticed that the participants did not involve their small children and wives.

As an aside, did you notice that in Athens with all the cops and veterans involved there were no fatalities, I thought folks in Tennessee were better shots.

Again what is our lawfully constituted authority supposed to do, when a person refuse to be served a warrant?

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[Dee]

I have seen both documentary tapes, as I bought them as soon as they came out. I watched here in Texas as the whole thing began and was surprised to see on the videos that I had worked with a couple of the officer's interviewed on the second tape. I was also not surprised to see the entire populace of the building killed as they were flying military helicopters and using tanks against American Citizens whom, had they lived would have won overwhelmingly in a court of law. As a 20 year veteran of a police dept. and former swat team leader and trainer, I saw a comedy of errors on entry, and an unnecessary shoot out. Karish could have been picked up while jogging (he did so every day) or when shopping at Wal-Mart which he and others done often buying lots of paper products (tissue ect). Karesh had invited the BATF to inspect the gun collection about 2 weeks prior to the raid telling them it was a conglomerate of several church members who collected guns. BATF refused the offer saying it wasn't necessary.
In reality the BATF was about to get it's budget cut way back and loose some man power, so they needed a big score. They got more than they bargained for and when they called in the FBI Hostage Rescue Team it went down hill from there. One of the more notorious characters in the mess was the FBI sniper (I forget his name) whom was credited with killing numerous people there, and is also credited with killing Vickie Weaver at Ruby Ridge, Idaho while she was holding her baby. A great bunch of folks huh?
When one talks about going thru the system, one must realize that these people at Waco and Ruby Ridge were not bothering anyone. This system would have seized everything they owned and placed their children in foster care FOR YEARS, while they themselves would have been in jail trying to prove their innocence. Not everyone enjoys being pushed around by the bully of the block. If you have watched the documentaries you will see good police officers, including Texas Rangers that I know as good men, saying the goverment was wrong and knew it and lied about what happend, and slandered the victims while doing it. When they come for your guns, will you give them up if they have a search warrant? It is the system you know, and you will have your day in court. Eventually.

[ironglow]

  For the skeptic saying that since the black-suited guys had wives and kids so they wouldn't hurt someone else's kid..let me hasten to remind you Goebbles, Eichmann, Heinrich Himmler and about half the black-suited SS officer corps also had children.
   In the end, Goebbels smiled and poisened his children..one after another..and Frau Goebbels helped him !
  No, Oklahoma City was not a viable way to "get back" at LEOs, no matter how corrupt they may be..too many innocents died..

   Don't forget the other terrorist that was sighted in the rental van/bomb..looked like a mid-eastern..that info has been squashed..
 
  At Ruby Ridge it was not just the nursing mother that was shot in the face but also a 14 year old boy and his dog...that were shot..IN THE BACK !
     
           ...Some big heroes, these...
   
  Not only that but these same heroes were lurking in the woods around  the Weaver cabin for weeks...some of them took to wearing red head bands..fancying themselves to be "ninja turtles" no doubt !
  Randy knew for weeks that they were lurking in the woods but if they made no move to speak with him..what else could he do ?
  Like Koresh's jogging, Randy often drove to town...even helped a couple of his adversaries fix a flat one day on his way back from town. Their thanks was to kill his wife, son & dog..

   Get the film, " Waco, the rules of engagement". It is almost entirely just an on site courtroom record of the testimony of the witnesses in the phony hearing that was held. Leaves little doubt of govt culpability...
   Frasnkly, I believe Dee probably had it smack on correct

[ironglow]

 TM;

  I am forced to agree with you this time..I have long suspected that these incidents, especially Waco , were "testing only testing" as to how far big brother could go before folks rose up.
   
  Ruby ridge was one family in a very remote location in a gulch at the end of a lonely road.When they got away with that one, next move was to try one that involved many families, in a fairly public area...with an extreme show of force...simply testing..

   Answer this one for yourselves folks: Did Big Brother get away with the crime ?

  FE asks...what is big bro supposed to do when a person refuses a warrant ? As Dee indicated, they could have served him on
 his morning jog, he could hardly have refused it then..

   I suppose the more logical answer is to eschew serving him when he is alone...then go ahead and burn down the homes , church and even run tanks on their underground shelter where most of the women and kids were..successfully caving it in.
   
  So according to FE they were morons...since when do we execute someone for being a moron ?

  Yes; they may have been involved in a "goofy" religion..but isn't that what the first amendment is all about ?

     If the Clinton/Reno cabal was benign, "cared about the children" and was swept into this murder case through no fault of their own...one would think that they would have welcomed impartial fire & crime investigators and lawmen onto the scene immediately after the killings to investigate..thereby clearing themselves of any culpability !

     Instead, noone but the perpetrators were allowed ANYWHERE NEAR  the scene before it was entirely bulldozed away...Hmmm

   ..Just like keeping the media a mile away "for their safety"..but of course, then not keeping the media off battlefields around the world...DUH !....Hmmmm

    Unfortunately, the media was in cahoots with the perps in this case !

   Again; any questions about this event will be answered with the film:       Waco-the rules of engagement    ...this is basically a recording of the proceeds of the kangaroo "hearing" into the events.
    There were some courageous elected reps that did ask searching and proper questions, but they were frustratingly, voted down..
 this investigative documentary was not done by a bunch of crackpot conspiracy/theory types. It was done by hardline journalists from a history of ABC MacNeil/Lehrer productions.

    You may be able to rent the video locally..or..it is available on Amazon..    WACO-THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT

[Dee]

I believe Randy Weaver sued for and got $4,000,000.00.