Author Topic: Human rights groups miffed at Chaney (Read 2520 times)

Brett · « **Reply #30 on:** October 30, 2006, 03:22:29 PM »

I'm not advocating the blanket torture of all enemy POWs. But I do not oppose using whatever means necessary to extract information from those in command who may have information useful to us. Furthermore I do not consider humiliation to be torture. If our troops want to vent by making a few enemy captives parade around in ladies pink panties I could care less. It's far better than cutting their heads off and parading there bodies threw the streets.

ironglow · « **Reply #31 on:** October 30, 2006, 04:30:51 PM »

   Frankly..I don't consider consider a "Taliban Bill of Rights" as something any worthwhile American should fight for...

   I really don't care if they waterboard 100 terrorists..if it will save the life of one of my AMERICAN BROTHERS or SISTERS !!

   Actually, parading one of those Christian-hating, woman-despising .. creeps around in a dog collar with pink woman's panties on his head...may be a thought provoking and eye opening experience for such an arrogant rascal..

   May be just what he needs..

nabob · « **Reply #32 on:** October 30, 2006, 11:44:08 PM »

Ironglow and powderman, I'm glad your true Christianity has finally been exposed. You guys actually enjoy the thought of hurting other people for the sake of revenge. Exactly which verse do you folks rely on for justification of your need to revenge yourselves? And when Sarah Brady starts whipping up the public about how one more restriction on your gun ownership because "it will save the life of one of my American brothers or sisters", remember that you approved of such reasoning.

Both ironglow and powderman also like the idea of publicly humiliating those that are no longer a threat to us. That is disgusting. So our vaunted American democracy, where we treat everyone as human beings, is shown up for the lie that it is when people like ironglow and powderman decide to get their jollies? How did you guys feel when the Muslims in Fallujah paraded the dead bodies of the Americans through the streets? I felt disgusted at the animal-like display and couldn't help concluding these people were sub-human. Now you want to join them? Good plan. And exactly what do you think that will do to help the war effort? When it happened in Abu Ghraib, it galvanized the Arab world against us.

So you want to engage in a doubtful means of interrogation, which has been shown to be less effective than other means, which doesn't result in timely data or even good data, which is counterproductive to the war effort, all because you want to receive some sort of personal satisfaction from the harming and humiliation of another person?

And you call yourselves Christians?

I don't.

BTW, Sheila - call me what you want. I am a Christian who takes his faith seriously enough to be disgusted at the opinions expressed on this subject.

And powderman, none of this has anything to do with what I would personally do to protect my family from someone posing an immediate threat. Those that we have captured and contained are not an immediate threat so that attempt at calumny won't work. Try again.

powderman · « **Reply #33 on:** October 31, 2006, 03:41:41 AM »

nabob. Truth is wasted on you. You read, but don't comprehend. I already stated that I would NOT enjoy getting needed information, on the contrary, it would make me sick. I said it already, but you ignored it. Being a Christian doesn't mean that we must live with our heads in the sand. Theres a real world out there and it aint pretty at times. None of this has anything to do with revenge and you know it, you just want to stir the pot. I bet you voted for gore and kerry. Humiliation is used to break the Godless ones spirit, no torture there. If we ever have to fight on our own soil again, and we will, I would gladly have Ironglow at my back or guarding my family, I wouldn't trust you to do either. I have to go to work now. Have a good day sir. POWDERMAN.

fe352v8 · « **Reply #34 on:** October 31, 2006, 05:17:44 AM »

As long as we are all in the mood to shred a few clause of the constitution and some treaties we are party to, I think it is time to do some editing to a couple of religious texts.

Lets start with the Bible, these three passage have got to go:

Leviticus 19:18 (optional for Christians, but a real problem for those without a New Covenant)
Mathew 7:12
Luke 6:31

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

nabob · « **Reply #35 on:** October 31, 2006, 10:10:31 AM »

Gosh, powderman, I cannot express how devastated I am at your refusal to let me guard your back. What that has to do with the subject at hand is a bit obscure, though.

I have no problem with viewing this conflict with Islam as a clash of cultures. I have no problems with viewing it as one faith trying to impose itself onto another faith. I have no problems with defending ourselves to the utmost of our ability.

However, I jump ship when someone starts invoking God's blessing on measures that include torture of people. I do not understand how anyone could in same breath claim that this is a war between God and Satan and then justify actions that go completely against the God that I've come to know. It is as if people know the words and not the message of Christianity. How quickly all the precepts of Christianity are discarded when this subject arises! What makes any of us think that God blesses us when we commit horrors against our enemy? Isn't that what we condemn them for? So why do we rush to be just like them?

We know the words of Christ. We haven't yet figured out the message. Pogo's statement "we have met the enemy and he is us" was never truer.

powderman · « **Reply #36 on:** October 31, 2006, 03:34:24 PM »

nabob. You're a whiz at ignoring the obvious and turning posts to your advantage. Islam is a Godless cult, not a religion.
fe. Those passages have nothing to do with war. POWDERMAN.

ironglow · « **Reply #37 on:** October 31, 2006, 03:43:01 PM »

fe52;

It seems you missed a point or two:

Lev 19:18..This passage speaks about VENGANCE,...and nobody on this string was speaking about vengance ! The only point Powderman and myself were making was to allow vigorus questioning in order to prevent further attacks from the fanatic murderers that want to kill our people....
That is simply self-defense !

If you want to score a scriptural coup.. point out a scripture verse that unequivocally rules out self-defense..

Really; you should read the scripture with enlightenment..read on..those words are for the Hebrews and it says not to take vengance nor bear any grudge " AGAINST THE CHILDREN OF YOUR PEOPLE "..

This verse obviously has no pertinence in this discussion..

Matthew 7:12 ..."therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets."

If I were a terrorist that bombed a child care center, beheaded a helpless captive, Gouged eyes, castrated and tortured captured soldiers or did one of those many despicable acts, I would deserve death and I wish someone would put me out of my misery..I should expect justice..

If I were a terrorist in captivity, I would expect to be strenuously questioned..and there is a choice..the terrorist can voluntarily offer any info asked for and avoid strenuous questioning...

So much for that verse...

Luke 6:31...essentially, a repeat of Matt 7:12

Now for those who think Christians are to be milquetoast sheep that will not defend themselves I offer;

In Jesus' own words (red letter)...Luke 22:36

A Christian is not nearly as simple or single dimentional as many think..
There is a time for nearly everything..and some of these things seem contradictory, depending upon time and circumstance...

See...Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 ...Great advice, notwithstanding how some chintzy rock group plagarized these very words...

AGAIN: You dissemble when you use the word "vengance" ..that word is not part of the discussion..

fe352v8 · « **Reply #38 on:** October 31, 2006, 07:09:00 PM »

Hey it is your book, interpret it anyway you like.

“There is a time for nearly everything..and some of these things seem contradictory, depending upon time and circumstance...”

If something is dependent upon time and circumstance, this sounds like “situational ethics”

In the absence of any determination by anything resembling due process, on an individual basis any given terrorist is an “alleged, or suspected terrorist”, under what was our traditional form of jurisprudence.

Is it then your position that if you were alleged to have or suspected of having engaged in a terrorist act, or believed to have knowledge of others who have or might be planning to engage in a terrorist act, that it would be okay to subject you to “strenuous”, “alternative”, and / or “vigorous” interrogation methods? Further is it also your position that in the absence of any finding by due process that it would be acceptable to imprison you until or if it was decided you could be released.

“If I were a terrorist that bombed a child care center, beheaded a helpless captive, Gouged eyes, castrated and tortured captured soldiers or did one of those many despicable acts, I would deserve death and I wish someone would put me out of my misery..I should expect justice..”

This statement equates death with justice, and for many it is debatable whether that is truly justice or merely vengeance. That issue aside, in context it appears that acts of brutality justify a response in kind. If so does one have the right then to respond in kind on the part of a victim, of what we call collateral damage?

Furthermore, the area where this conflict is taking place has a culture that differs from ours, in more than just what is the dominant belief system. In their culture, which at times seems almost tribal, transgressions of, what we feel occurred in the distant past, are still contemporary. The crusades were not 700 or 900 years ago they were yesterday. Even if this was not the case the loss of life caused to non-combatants due to collateral damage during our deposing of the previous regime, and their response to it, would seem justified under your read of Mathew 7:12 and Luke 6:31. They would also seem to have taken the advice in 22:36, and Ecclesiastes 3:1-8, makes it all okay.

To act as your enemy acts only serves to make you more like your enemy.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

nabob · « **Reply #39 on:** October 31, 2006, 11:49:18 PM »

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Those passages have nothing to do with war.

They have to do with how to live your LIFE, powderman, war or not. Might try rereading them.

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That is simply self-defense

Baloney. When you start talking about how it would teach those arrogant terrorists a thing or two to wear panties on their head and walk on a leash, you are talking about revenging yourself on someone, getting even. Those are your own words, ironglow, and they disprove the idea that this is about "self-defense". This is about getting even.

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If I were a terrorist that bombed a child care center, beheaded a helpless captive, Gouged eyes, castrated and tortured captured soldiers or did one of those many despicable acts, I would deserve death and I wish someone would put me out of my misery..I should expect justice..

Justice, sure. But justice comes as a result of LAWS being applied by some sort of judicial process. You are talking about torturing a person to get information. That is much much different. So much for your exegesis of that verse.

The verse in Luke is about protection of one's self. Explain to me again how the need for self-protection involves "teaching them a lesson" by humilitating them or torturing them? I have to wonder what Jesus would think of someone who, in His holy name, crushed testicles or ripped out fingernails of person in custody, to "teach him a lesson." I doubt the answer would be affirmative.

The word "vengeance" is certainly part of the discussion because that is what I believe motivates you and powderman - the search for enjoyment through the pain and humiliation of one's enemies.

Quote

Actually, parading one of those Christian-hating, woman-despising .. creeps around in a dog collar with pink woman's panties on his head...may be a thought provoking and eye opening experience for such an arrogant rascal..

May be just what he needs..

Where is getting information in that statement, ironglow? You are talking about taking him down a notch, knocking the arrogance out of him. The fig leaf of "obtaining information" is gone, isn't it? This is what it comes down to: wanting to get revenge on someone.

Sick.

ironglow · « **Reply #40 on:** November 01, 2006, 02:23:29 AM »

Nabob..Fe. TM7;

I give up on you guys ..all those things you call torture are simply ways of obtaining information..
You have labeled vigorous questioning and a bit of called for humiliation as torture..

Heavens forbid that a terrorist should br humiliated to save innocent American lives !!

You are confusing questioning for info to save American lives with "vengance"...DUH!!

Search the past posts..the only ones I saw mention anything about tearing out fingernails, crushing gonads or otherwise truly torturing someone ..were you guys..

Is that a latent, hidden desire on your part ? ...Noone else has even mentioned it !

FE..
If you are unfamiliar with the Bible..best not try to use it ! If you cannot grasp the first 8 verses in Ecclesiastes ch 3..you perhaps ought to just leave them alone..

Nabob..Don't try to lecture me on my Christian faith when I speak of rigorous questioning (not physical torture) of terrorists:

Are you the same guy that backs an organization (RC Church) that founded the INQUISITION..and tortured to death MANY PERFECTLY INNOCENT CHRISTIANS in continental Europe ?

..And do you still revere a guy called Dominic ; "The hammerer of the heretics"..that started that .. totally dedicated to torture gang..?

In your last post you indicated that you thought i may want testicles crushed and fingernails ripped out..in Jesus' Holy name..you ought to be ashamed..I in no way even remotely suggested that...But that INQUISITION..designed and operated by the Roman Catholic Church were the best in the world at that stuff for at least a couple hundred years..that can be PROVEN..

...And that is probably the main reason the "culture" with the multi-century year grudge , hates ALL who proclaim Christ...

Fe ..in your most recent post (last full paragraph)..you seemed to say that since our enemy is from a weird culture that carries grudges for hundreds of years...that we should just roll over for them..understand their desire to torture and kill us..and simply "assume room temperature" to please them !

Now at least a couple of you have insisted that you are not Liberals..

I ask everyone here to review the all the previous posts in this thread and see if they can see anything that would indicate that you guys are anything but the MOST FLAMING of bleeding heart liberals..

Let your words speak for themselves..the mask melts...

powderman · « **Reply #41 on:** November 01, 2006, 03:19:09 AM »

IRONGLOW. Agreed Sir, bet they voted for gore and kerry too. POWDERMAN.

WylieKy · « **Reply #42 on:** November 01, 2006, 04:00:24 AM »

I'm torn on this issue. If someone took my daughter or wife, I would torture them until they let me know where they were. And I do mean torture, not "strenuous questioning." I think, however, that the act would lessen me. The rules of engagement are changing. The age of the organized army seems to be failing. These men are irregulars. They have little or no oversight, and less restraint. Who do you sign a "no torture" tready with, and even if you did, who would enforce it on their end. I do not think that torture really works, as if you hurtsomeone enough they will tell you anything they think you want to hear just to get it to stop.

Lets try an "out of the box" method. Instead of physical torture, lets try a little positive reinforcement. Begin with getting the terrist a good, hard addiction to heroine. After the addiction sets in fully, withdraw said drug. Once the shakes start, onlly give him a dose when he gives you usefull, verifiable info. If the info does not turn out or he is used up, release him back to the point of capture. Let them deal with a crazed, heroine addicted, prior terrorist in need of a hit.

WylieKy

nabob · « **Reply #43 on:** November 01, 2006, 05:56:46 AM »

Reality check, ironglow: the only people on this thread that are supporting the methods of the Inquisition are you and powderman.

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a bit of called for humiliation

Uh huh. And you believe that "a bit of called-for humiliation" is in keeping with Christianity? I wonder how Jesus would react to that statement. "Dear Lord, I know you'd bless me for humiliating people that I've captured in war. I know it is in the best traditions of 'love your enemy'. You agree, don't you? I mean, you'd do the same if you had the chance, wouldn't you?"

Betcha He wouldn't. So why do you support doing it? The mask of supposed Christianity is slipping, ironglow and powderman. At least you've dropped the "interrogation" line and admitted what you really want - to humiliate those you detest. Thanks for not dressing it up as trying to get information anymore. It is vengeance, pure and simple.

As for who I voted for? You can bet it wasn't for someone who, like you, wants to be able to torture people just for the sheer fun of watching their humiliation and pain.

fe352v8 · « **Reply #44 on:** November 01, 2006, 07:50:29 AM »

What you call enlightenment sounds more like hypocrisy, but then I guess all fall short, but some seem to enjoy it more though.

These are the applicable laws and regulations in effect, not that it apparently matters, because as previously stated by one fervent believer and affirmed by another this is God versus Satan..

You may want to check out DoD Directive 2310.01E, The Department of Defense Detainee Program dated 9/5/2006
I have it in pdf

Then you might want to look a US Code Title 18, Chapter 113, section 2340
Here is the link http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002340----000-.html

Then you might want to look at the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005
Here is a link http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/gazette/2005/12/detainee-treatment-act-of-2005-white.php

Then you might want to look a FM 2-22.3, Human Intelligence Collector Operations dated 9/6/06
I have it in pdf

If it was available, ST 2-91.6, Small Unit Support to Intelligence, which is a supplemental text to FM 2-0, Intelligence, would also be nice to read, but the supplemental text is restricted, various reference to it indicate what interrogation techniques are specifically prohibited.

Check out this link
https://atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/restricted/11350-1/ST/2-91.6/ST2-91.6.HTM

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

Casull · « **Reply #45 on:** November 01, 2006, 09:30:42 AM »

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As for who I voted for? You can bet it wasn't for someone who, like you, wants to be able to torture people just for the sheer fun of watching their humiliation and pain.

Nabob, as much as you might want to believe this, I would bet money that no such person was on the ballot.

ironglow · « **Reply #46 on:** November 01, 2006, 09:33:43 AM »

Well..no use wasting any more breath on these Taliban supporter ..John Kerry wanna bees...

nabob · « **Reply #47 on:** November 01, 2006, 10:10:34 AM »

No use wasting any more breath on these Inquisition supporters. Pol Pot wanna bees.

powderman · « **Reply #48 on:** November 01, 2006, 03:18:25 PM »

nabob, fe. If the Godless ones capture one or more of your loved ones, I'd like to see you follow your own rules. I love my family enough to do what is needed, evidently you don't.
nabob. You continually twist and ignore words to suit you, to the point of ignoring the truth. No sense talking to you anymore.
IRONGLOW. Agreed Sir. The Godless ones are safe with these guys. POWDERMAN.

nabob · « **Reply #49 on:** November 01, 2006, 11:55:17 PM »

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If the Godless ones capture one or more of your loved ones, I'd like to see you follow your own rules.

So much for the conservative support of the rule of law. You support it only when it isn't an inconvenience. The mask is slipping...

Quote

The Godless ones are safe with these guys.

You and ironglow will ensure a never-ending supply of them with your tactics.

So remind me, which one is the Godless group? The folks who want to kill innocent civilians or the people who want to use torture to revenge themselves on the first group. Seems to me they might both be kinda far from God.

fe352v8 · « **Reply #50 on:** November 02, 2006, 02:42:50 AM »

I suppose it comes down to whether one has the ability to live by their convictions. I am not a pacifist, and have no problem with using force to defend myself and loved ones.

As I am not a religious person I am drawn more to the secular writing that have arisen in our quest to co-exist, one of these documents, that I feel is one of the finest examples of a secular proscription for co-existence is the first ten amendments to the US Constitution, commonly known as the Bill of Rights.

While it is understandable to me how an individual would have a hard time living up to whatever “divinely” inspired standards are promulgated in whatever text their belief system holds sacred and they ascribe to, it should be far less difficult to follow the standards laid down in a text that is held as the basis of the secular government of the country which they claim allegiance to.

Therefore I find it odd that one can support behavior that is contrary to the standards set forth in the very document that is basis of the founding of their country.

It is unfortunate that some are so willing to abandon the ideals set forth in the Bill of Rights, out of fear; I suppose that is the difference between us, some are willing to accept the risk associated with the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, while others are willing only to insist upon receipt of the benefits it provides them.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

ironglow · « **Reply #51 on:** November 02, 2006, 02:44:05 AM »

Nabob;

  I am sure God appreciates your help in telling him who are the real Christians..and I can assure you that Powderman and I are not

   losing much sleep about your denunciations..perhaps you need to apply a bit of introspection..

   Curiously, none of us seem to be ready to admit if we are any kind of liberal..easy to do.

   I have long suspected that there are "closet Liberals"..trying to make points for their unpalatable to most of us,...positions..

  Thankfully, we as registered posters can examine earlier a history of postings...and that will tell us who are the ones that take consistantly, the LIBERAL position..

   Look not at just this thread but any other political threads in the "pot-bellied stove"..see if it is Powderman and I that are consistantly conservative or LIBERAL..or if it is Nabob, Fe352 & co. who are trying to misrepresent.

   No need us discussing it anymore..the search results will speak for themselves....and see who's mask IS slipping..

  ...As we often tell children... " No matter how you deny or weep; you'll still be judged by the company you keep !"

fe352v8 · « **Reply #52 on:** November 02, 2006, 03:23:42 AM »

Would it make a difference what one “is”, what is clear is that anyone with a differing viewpoint, will be labeled with some term you hold as a pejorative.

Considering what you have postulated, and endorsed in this thread, regarding the treatment of captives, any term, which differentiates me from your position, will be most acceptable.

As you said one will be judged by the company they keep, be assured I do not wish to be among those who find deliberate mistreatment of others acceptable.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

powderman · « **Reply #53 on:** November 02, 2006, 03:29:31 AM »

IRONGLOW. Like I said, it was gore and kerry, bet they love hilary too. POWDERMAN.

ironglow · « **Reply #54 on:** November 02, 2006, 04:13:26 AM »

...John Kerry wannabes...

fe352v8 · « **Reply #55 on:** November 02, 2006, 06:22:16 AM »

Please don’t take this as “baiting”, but I am truly disappointed, I was so hoping for something a bit more colorful, and virulent.

I must say, in all candor this is not one of your best efforts.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

nabob · « **Reply #56 on:** November 02, 2006, 11:35:40 AM »

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I have long suspected that there are "closet Liberals"..trying to make points for their unpalatable to most of us,...positions..

Thankfully, we as registered posters can examine earlier a history of postings...and that will tell us who are the ones that take consistantly, the LIBERAL position..

I have long suspected there were closet unbelievers in Christ, though they talked a good game, trying to justify their lack of belief by torturing the message of God to justify their actions. Thankfully, we as registered posters can examine a history of postings and that will tell us who are the ones that take their faith seriously and who ignores it when convenient.

powderman · « **Reply #57 on:** November 02, 2006, 03:37:55 PM »

nabob. Jesus wouldn't have to interrogate, he already knows all. Jesus was not above using violence, at least as you see it. He went into a rage when he threw the money changers out of Gods Holy temple, turned over tables, etc. Just before he was crucified he told his disciples, ye who are without a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Being the Christian you are I'm sure you already knew these things. Calling us vengeful is a copout on your part. Revenge has nothing to do with getting information to save innocent, or American lives, no matter what it takes. No matter what we say, you turn things around to suit your liberal agenda. You and fe harp about legal, the law, etc. At some point in time right and wrong must enter the picture. Right and wrong have NOTHING to do with legal anymore. Maybe we should let the iraquis, the afghans, the paks, the Egyptians, saudis, or the Israelis do the interrogating. Would that clear your conscience?? I'm sure they would get the needed info by simply asking a question or 2. Right and wrong should take precedence over LEGAL any day. POWDERMAN.

ironglow · « **Reply #58 on:** November 02, 2006, 10:34:01 PM »

Amen; Powderman...

..No need to say more, let thread participants look at the past posts of each of us ..and then decide which ones have a liberal sob-sister agenda..

nabob · « **Reply #59 on:** November 02, 2006, 11:15:41 PM »

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No need to say more, let thread participants look at the past posts of each of us ..and then decide which ones have a liberal sob-sister agenda.

No need to say more, let thread participants look at the past posts of each of us..and then decide which ones have professed Christianity and then abandoned it at the first opportunity to revenge one's self in a little "called for humiliation".

powderman, I love the way this topic has brought out the sham that is the Republican mantra - "the rule of law". Apparently, the law is to followed when convenient and abandoned when inconvenient. Sort of makes a mockery of being a conservative. It is also pretty funny to try to invoke the approval of Jesus in torturing and humiliating people. THAT is your position, that God Himself would approve? You must have conjured up a God that I don't know about. Good trick and I'm glad it salves your conscience. Just don't call it any God met while reading Scripture. It is a product of your own imagination.