Author Topic: Electronic voting...  (Read 741 times)

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Offline Matt

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Electronic voting...
« on: October 29, 2006, 06:40:30 PM »
An electronic voting system does not have to be bad or a risk to our democracy. If a system is put in place with enough checks and balances then it would work and be as safe as what we have now.

Being the techie that I am I have been pondering a way to do this. I have come up with a possible solution that would be practical and cost effective. The amount of money required would be no more than is spent now on the electronic voting systems.

Ok let me explain how my system would work:

First each time a voter cast their ballots on the system a ticket would print out with all the information that will be needed to keep the politicians and their cohorts honest. This ticket might look something like this:



Now on this ticket we have (4) elements to our checks and balances system.
1)   We have the Voter Confirmation ID
2)   We have the printed voter selections
3)   We have the Voter Confirmation on the Side
4)   We have the Voter Confirmation in bar code at bottom

Ok here is how we check and then double check our information to insure that the ballot was cast as we wanted. First we will have a secondary system separate from the voting machine to verify our ballot for us. This system would be a dumb terminal which would only know how many races or issues there were in the election and would log the results as they are scanned in.  There are 2 ways we could do this scanning of the barcode for verification. A) we could have a barcode scanner made into the printer so that as the ticket came out it was scanned and then the information displayed on a separate monitor above the voting machine. Or B) the voter could scan the barcode on the ticket themselves to see the results of their vote. Either way here we could be sure that our vote was cast accurately.

Now the second system I speak of would have no network connection and would not need memory cards inserted for any reason therefore removing that possibility of tampering. It could use the barcode scanner to read printed tickets to add candidates and issues to the system. These could be printed right from the voting machines own configuration. This eliminates the need for repetitive entering of the information by hand and possible errors. The system could then print out a ticket at the end of the election to compare to the ones from the voting machine. If they do not match then a flag is sent up and the search would begin.

We could also take this a step further and have the voter drop the printed ticket into a box so that we have the two machine printout plus each paper copy of each vote. We could even have it print 2 tickets one to drop and one for the voter to keep which could be scanned by yet another system upon exiting the polls to have really accurate exit polls. This would also add a 4th check to our system and leave less room for manipulation of the system.

 Here is what a Voter Confirmation ID might look like and an explanation of it.



note that it has several checks built into the number itself. This would make it harder to steal votes or add ghost votes. As you will know how many votes were cast on the system and you will have a log of who voted and if the numbers do not add up you know something is wrong.

Also this information will be easy for both the voting machine and the verification system to store millions of votes with very little memory or space required.  This enables the voting machine and verification machine to be built with a small embedded micro computer lowering cost. This also reduces heat and size as well as tripling if not more the rigidity of the device as there will be no moving parts such as hard drives to damage.

Many more safe guards could be built into the voting machine to ensure that the voting process is fair and honest I have simply named a few plausible ones.

As with any electronic or computerized system there is always an inherent risk that it could be compromised but at least with a system like this you could have several security features to keep people honest or at least make it hard for them to be dishonest.

What do you all think?

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline magooch

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Re: Electronic voting...
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 03:12:26 AM »
I'm still partial to our low tech paper ballots that we receieve a couple of weeks before the vote.  We can vote at our convenience and then we can choose to return the ballot by mail, drop it off at the auditors office any time before voting day, or at any voting place on voting day.

That brings up a question; why do we still have voting places?  I guess maybe some people still like to do it the old way.

There really isn't much in the way of guaranteeing that there'll be no cheating, but we don't have to worry about someone hacking the system.  If you're going to cheat, it's going to be pretty hard to cheat to the degree that it has a major effect.  Only registered voters receive ballots and the envelope they are returned in has to be signed.  The downside is that the votes have to be counted by people and it takes a while.
Swingem

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Electronic voting...
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2006, 03:30:32 AM »
Voting systems have changed numerous times over the years. I would suspect that many in my age group would complain about any changes---and have each time it was changed.
I have voted with at least two different types of electronic (computer???) machines.
It does take some amount of concentration above the paper ballot, though the paper ballots have their limitations also--I remember Florida.
I also remember LBJ's (landslide Lyndon) election in a well documented voting fraud (paper ballots).
It will be more difficult for older and more challenged (electronically) folks, so, it is good too have it both ways.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline jhm

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Re: Electronic voting...
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2006, 03:46:38 AM »
How much more complicated can it be over a ATM machine we trust them on a daily basis with billions of dollars, the worlds money is transfered around the world almost a simply, you walk up to a machine insert your card, punch in your secret code, it then shows you your balance and you decide what you want to do with your millions, you take out $10.00 and hope the figures you saw were correct, ended with a date / time stamped reciept end of transaction all the while hoping the wife dont say anything abt. the withdrawal. ;D   JIM

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Electronic voting...
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2006, 01:17:43 PM »
I have friends who WILL NOT use an ATM machine, they write checks and do not even use credit cards.
Blessings
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Offline Matt

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Re: Electronic voting...
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2006, 08:58:50 PM »
Apparently with these E-voting machines there is now a Saudi and Columbian/Venezeulan connection. I don't have the details...something like the Saudis own the tally/counting companies and the South Americans own some productiuon companies.....anybody got the details.?


There are 3 major manufacturers of the e-voting systems. One is Venezuelan think it was smartco or smartcom something to that effect anyway. Another of the 3 is Saudi. Every model that is sold by these 2 companies uses a “proprietary software” this allows them to withhold the source code for the machine from inspection under “Trade Secrets Laws” This allows the owners of the company to be the only ones who know the in and outs of the software and if it has been or could be compromised.

Dibold is the only company who has allowed its code to be viewed and it has been hacked and can be compromised in only 1 min.

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Questor

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Re: Electronic voting...
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2006, 03:26:43 AM »
We've had electronic voting for longer than I've been a voter, at least back into the 1960's. Perhaps nobody today remembers voting machines. And the paper ballots that we mark with special pens are read by machines. The issue today is whether a tangible basis for a recount will be retained, and how it will be retained.
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Offline DWTim

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Re: Electronic voting...
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2006, 07:04:48 AM »
I'm really conflicted on which way I should go with the discussion, because there is a lot to talk about here...

The whole issue I have with electronic voting machines is that they are a solution looking for a problem. Absent from the discussions were any real analysis of how inaccurate are the current mechanical ones. We have had the mechanical ones in town for as long as I have been voting. I'm sure they spend a pretty penny having them serviced, but it's a small town, and if they were breaking, it'd be the gossip of the day. They are by no means foolproof, but it would take a fair bit of skill to gain physical access unnoticed, and to get a desired result by modifying them.

Actually... Let me go with a more fundamental approach. The whole reason this is a hot-button issue is the Florida Recount in 2000. That was a mechanical failure, to be sure, but machines are expected to fail. However, all things being equal, the weakest link in the security chain is usually people. Whether it's "social engineering", ignorance, or just plain apathy. Were all the machines leaving hanging chads? Did they test them beforehand? Did they have an inspection procedure during voting that did not allow tampering? How come no one put the machines out of commission?

In terms of actual security of secret ballots, I do not like the recount trend. It is *not* a good idea to do a recount just because. There has to be some technical opinion, trusted overseers, and "probable cause", if you will. Every time the previous result is set aside, and those ballots are re-handled, there is greater opportunity for trouble.

It also appears to me that a lot of the push for electronic voting is based on the expectation that there will be greater convenience tallying the votes. I'm sure this is an attractive prospect for larger cities. But now we are discussing paper voting identification. That implies a printout, which means there is a printer involved. A printer needs to be driven by something, so now our voting machine has a serial or USB chipset in it. We have then introduced potential mechanical problems, lots of them. Then there is the issue of re-printing in case of failure, and also the disadvantages of ink, toner or thermal printing.

Electronic voting /hopes/ to eliminate one problem: Tampering with counts. I am compelled to argue that this is probably the least common problem with vote fraud. It is also based on the perception that wide-spread vote counting fraud happened in Florida and Ohio in the last two elections. I think the far greater problems are: Voters who register in two (or more) states, then vote in both during national elections. Non-existent voters, whereby those enganged in fraud take advantage of stale voter rolls and vote as dead or former-resident voters, and illegal aliens (the non-registered) voting.

(How strange. As I write this, the teacher in the next room is lecturing the kids about the 2000 election, and Bush's "one electoral vote" win. Heh.)


Offline Matt

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Re: Electronic voting...
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2006, 08:16:07 AM »
DWTim, I agree I do not want electronic voting but it is in the end not my opinion that will decide the matter. But if we have to have these stupid things why not make one along the lines I have stated at least then we have multiple checks that can be used when an election is in question.

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline Matt

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Re: Electronic voting...
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2006, 09:02:59 AM »
yeah that has been on several times now. The machine that they used is a Dibold that was hacked.

Matt
Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein

Offline DWTim

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Re: Electronic voting...
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2006, 02:45:37 PM »
Here's a great example. Guess who is being investigated for attempting to register and vote in both New Canaan, CT and Palm Beach, FL?