Author Topic: Shot distance in Africa  (Read 2120 times)

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Offline Coppertop

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Shot distance in Africa
« on: October 30, 2006, 07:37:20 AM »
This is for JJ and anyone else that has been there.

What is the average distance you get shots at plains game?  I have read a lot of threads about what caliber and which gun to use on different (DG) animals. But distance and then comparative size of the animal doesn't seem to come up.  Are the Plains game that much toughter than say, our elk?

Just thought this might shed a new or different light on a very berated subject.

Offline GEMSBUCK

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Re: Shot distance in Africa
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2006, 02:17:33 AM »
It really depend what area of SA you are hunting. Just like elk, PG can be found in thick scrub or open plains. Any weapon you can shoot well over .270 will work on 99% of the PG. The exception would be eland and such then I would opt for something in the 338WM and 250gr bullets. I recently killed a 52" kudu bull in northern Namibia at 350 yds measured with a laser range finder. I killed another in RSA at 30 feet(limit I could see in the thick scrub) with my bow.
 IMHO the nonsense that African game animals are tougher than NA game of comparable size is just plain old BS. Shoot a 100# pronghorn in the guts and he's going to run a loooong way. Same goes for a 100# African antelope shot in the guts. Deflate either's lungs and both are dead quickly. For that matter shoot a grizzly or a cape buffalo in the heart and both will die. It may take 30 seconds or so for it to succum but it will die. The question is how much damage either can do until it succums, both can lay a good hurting on you till they do.
 If I was limited to one firearm for all PG my personal choice would be a 338WM, but I am used to the recoil.If it were legal i'd hunt buffalo with it as well.

Offline JJHACK

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Re: Shot distance in Africa
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2006, 07:59:25 AM »
Depending upon the geography and the species there is no average. Within the bush habitat we hunt in the north the ranges for most species will be from 50-150 yards.

In Namibia a shot of 300 yards on Gemsbok, zebra, eland, springbok, etc. would not be exceptional. As far as game toughness........highly debated and tons of opinions. I was born and rasied in the USA having hunted most of the big game. Also worked as a guide in AK for a loooong time. I've hunted most of my adult life in Africa. So here are my thoughts on this having experienced many of the speces tenacity of life in fairly large numbers.


Everything shot through the heart will die, just as it will when shot through the lungs. The difference is the distance/or time it will travel before it dies, and the amount of blood given to locate it.

Some things to consider incude anatomy, which is the biggest issue for my hunters and one which I cover in great detail with all the hunters in camp before each hunt. The depth of the chest from brisket to backbone is a greater span in many African species. Many Americans who aim for the middle as they would at home shoot far to high for the organs and far to low for the spine. There is always a story later about how tough the animal was. "It was hit perfectly through the chest and ran miles without ony blood".

African game for most of the larger plains species has much thicker skin then American game. Kudu being an exception. Zebra, wildebeast, gemsbok, Hartebeest, Tssessebe, sable, etc. even the warthog have extremely thick tough elastic skin comparable to NA Mtn Goats, and wild boar. This is a much tougher to penetrate and bleed from substance then other game around the world. The thorns and hooks these animals live in have likely been the evolution of this very tough hide. The toughest hides are typical of herd animals which spook and run wildly through the bush to escape in a panic. Animals like the Kudu which are not herd animals but rather live in small family groups use stealth and skill to evade rather then blinding speed and brush crashing.

Speaking of herd animals. Another issue with plains species is the typical dry dusty conditions and the sandy soil. Combined with being herd species make for extremely difficult tracking at times. In North America almost all game shot will be a lone animals. Once shot you can watch the reaction and departure of that animal for some period of time.

Now switch to Africa plains species like a Zebra, Gemsbok or Wildebeest. You see a trophy you wish to shoot and it's among 25 other animals. When the shot is clear you take it. At that instant all hell breaks loose in a plume of dust so great you can hardly see through it. Much like a shell game, the animal you shot becomes lost in the stampeed. Not only that but using a small caliber rifle reduces the blood flow. The only spots of blood are now covered in the settling dust and what do you have? ........nothing. Yet you are sure of the shot placement.

Herd mentality will push game many levels beyond anything you can imagine to stay with the group. Now 1/2 mile or more without any blood trail and the game is lost. African game can seem much tougher when this happens. The same event with a single bull elk, deer, bison, moose, etc would be much easier to follow up visually letting you see what happened. Then tracking a single animal is far less complicated then trying to follow a thousand foot prints in the sand to find the set from one you shot.

As you follow this group trying to keep up, the sick one peels away from the group and slowing down it will lay up and die. Yet you pass that single set of tracks up while folloeing the group. Finding one set of tracks that peels away in a 50 yard wide stampeed made by 25 or more animals is a needle in a haystack. When you see the group again you cannot identify any that are sick, and none with blood. Only then you realize it's somewhere behind you. Good luck!

Yeah African game seems tougher and the conditions can be difficult with the herds, and anatomy, and the much thicker skin. As I said anything shot in the heart or lungs will die. The real question is how long will it live after that and how far it can go. It's my opinion having hunted professionally in both Africa, and North America( including AK) that more game by a large margin with what seems like good shots and good equipment is lost in Africa then everyplace else I've worked combined. I'll add to that more game is shot there too. Which also has to be considered.

There is great difficulty folloing bears in SE AK when its a drizzle in the wet rain forest areas and the hunter has used a small caliber rifle. That is just as difficult. But we are only talking one species. Africa has so many speices that can cause this stress, it creates this feeling they are tougher.

They are tougher to find, I have spent far more time looking for African animals then NA animals. That ratio is not even close! I'm not talking about the shot placement or bullet quality. Just a good hunter making a good shot and having the animal run and die in a situation that took a heck of a long time to resolve.

I think the thick skin evolution because of the thorns, and the herd life style do make them more difficult to locate. I also feel they are a bit tougher or more willing to run and fight for their last breath.

Elk, Mtn goats, and wild hogs are the three toughest NA game I've seen shot and keep traveling a long way. Moose could be added to that as well, but it's more their shear size that gets them a lot of bullet impacts without falling. You could say the same about Austrailian water buffalo, American Bison and Eland. I have to seperate real tough to kill animals from those that are just so big they can take a pounding before death sets in.
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Offline Coppertop

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Re: Shot distance in Africa
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2006, 05:35:03 AM »
JJ

Thank you for the answer. I have been following your discussions in other threads here and i now have a greater understanding of why you like a larger caliber rifle. The explanation you have given here filled in many holes I had for the reasoning you have had in those other threads.

Offline Coppertop

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Re: Shot distance in Africa
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2006, 05:36:06 AM »
Gemsbuck:

Thank you too.

Offline JJHACK

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Re: Shot distance in Africa
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2006, 06:31:22 AM »
Coppertop, I have a bit more time and thought I would add a bit to the "toughness" question for your entertainment

The plains species must survive a significant level of parasites, insects, thorns, hooks, drought, snakes, and the multitude of predators every single day of their life from the instant it's born until it's shot or finally killed by a predator or illness. Add in the level of intense fighting they go through to be the top breeder when the herd sizes are so massive. I think that brings a lot to the table where the will to live and survive comes into play.

By comparison to an Eastern whitetail who's greatest risk in life is watching to be sure he's not hit by the school buss or mail delivery truck. Then of course they have the tough choice between corn or alfalfa for dinner. There are no more functional predators there, and the agriculture has created many boundaries to have the same kind of herding of does by the strongest buck in the region. I don’t have the numbers here but the study in Michigan( as I recall) showed the reduction in big breeding bucks was down and the sub adults were actually doing much of the breeding, same with the Elk in much of the west. How does that help the gene pool? The battles between bulls and bucks is usually between a few animals for all the females now. Rather then between 50 or more as it would be among the typical African species

It may have been a bit different in North America 200 years ago. However that is where Africa is today. The game still lives today as it always has. Sure there are some areas with a bit of agriculture, and maybe some irrigation but it's only enough to boost the quality, not enough to maintain it or destroy the survival of the fittest and breeding of the strongest males.

Anyone who sees that differently has just not spent enough time in Africa to see this. It's obvious the conditions there are by a large margin far more difficult and the breeding wars typically far more brutal when compared to what the Eastern species of big game have to deal with in North America, and for a large part the western species as well.

There are exceptions, Kudu have about the same will to live as a Whitetail deer, not much! They do not exhibit that fight to the death and until the last breath is gone that many other species do. For that matter how many people in the USA with the millions of hunters out are charged by a deer, elk, mtn goat, sheep? The Majority of North American hoofed game are cervids with branched antlers, so they're more like wrestlers than stabbers. Bovids, though, with their stabbing horns need to be better able to survive a severe puncture and keep on standing, Otherwise they lose the ability to continue breeding. They don't need to recover completly, only long enough to get through a bit more of the breeding season. There is clearly a different mental function between Antlered and horned game.

In South Africa getting charged by a 130 lb bushbuck is nothing exceptional, getting charged by a Nyala or bushbuck when wounded is typical. Same with Gemsbok! I have shot a red hartebeest with a broken front leg lost in chest high grass. I saw it go down and walked in with a rifle to find it. When I was about 30 yards away it rose to it’s three good feet and came straight for me. Since when does a red hartebeest charge? I’ve seen two blue wildebeest charge other PH’s on a follow up. Sable are an unbelievable danger to track when wounded as are gemsbok.

You question a greater will to live and fight? When was the last time somebody was charged by a wounded deer or elk? At what frequency does this occur? Heck the same can be said for a Mtn lion VS a leopard. Leopards are on average 20% smaller yet they will charge and fight 99% of the time. I’ve killed/or guided hunters to almost 20 mtn lions now and never been charged once. All these on foot without dogs, many shot within 50 yards. Not a single aggressive event towards me or anyone else. A leopard would have been all over a human in pursuit at that range! Anyone who thinks there is no difference has not spent enough time there to see the differences!

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Offline GEMSBUCK

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Re: Shot distance in Africa
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2006, 09:20:51 AM »
let me see a Mtn Goat lives a mile up above the clouds eats grass a horse wouldn't, kills grizzlies at will and wards off -80 windchill temps...I killed one with the same rifle/bullet I've killed kudu and wildebeest with only he took 2 shots thru the lungs while the others took only 1...that seems pretty tough to me
 

Offline JJHACK

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Re: Shot distance in Africa
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2006, 10:36:04 AM »
Gemsbok, you are a funny guy. Is it your goal to just stir the pot and look for a debate?  Did you read the posts completely which I wrote just above this one?

Here are a few snips that reflect the Mountain goats when comparing game speices. This gets no debate from me, as I already addressed the goat being different then other American Game.

By the way you wrote that Goats are killing grizzlies at will? Wow thats a stretch, Any details on this from any other source but your opinion?

Copied from the above posts Regarding Goats:

"The Majority of North American hoofed game are cervids with branched antlers, so they're more like wrestlers than stabbers. Bovids, though, with their stabbing horns need to be better able to survive a severe puncture and keep on standing, Otherwise they lose the ability to continue breeding."

"African game for most of the larger plains species has much thicker skin then American game. Kudu being an exception. Zebra, wildebeast, gemsbok, Hartebeest, Tssessebe, sable, etc. even the warthog have extremely thick tough elastic skin comparable to NA Mtn Goats, and wild boar."

"Elk, Mtn goats, and wild hogs are the three toughest NA game I've seen shot and keep traveling a long way"

I'm confused as to where the debate is here?



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Offline GEMSBUCK

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Re: Shot distance in Africa
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2006, 12:47:41 PM »
Who's stirring any pot? But since you asked about the grizzly/goat I can tell you from my 1st hand experience . When I guided in Alaska ( and some in BC) I had the opportunity to see more than one grizzly back away from an old Billy whom thought he should have the right away to a narrow ledge or trail. On one of those occasions I and a witness (my sport) watched as a goat and a grizzly met face to face on a narrow ledge at about 5000 feet. The goat wasn't about to back up and the griz thought he'd found himself dinner. That old billy backed up to rock wall with his butt and when the griz came he stuck him 3 times in the blink of an eye with his sharp horns. Two days later near there we found him when we went to check what the ravens were squaking about, dead as ALL HECK with his guts poking thru his hide.
 I have killed Mtn. Goats with my Rem 700 Classic in 338WM/250 gr NP Golds, hit them solid on the shoulder only to watch them walk off AND CLIMB HIGHER. That same load has accounted for several PG animals by myself ,my sons, my father and my wife...about 50-55 animals from steinbuck to eland. 7 eland to be exact that all were 1 shot kills.
 As for your comment "...did I even bother to read the entire post...." frankly no I did not just the opening line of each paragraph...your posts run a tad bit long for my taste. But hey write all day if you want no sweat to me.
 Jim you seem to have some sort of beef with me, I have none with you. Other than your attitude that no one else could possibly know a darn thing about hunting be it AK or Africa, and if someone isn't hunting in RSA they are wasteing their hard earned cash as Zim, Zambia,Tanz., and Namibia are fool's destinations. Ok you have a vested interest in RSA, that's fine by me. If I owned a company there I may well suggest it to be the only decent place in Africa to spend a few dollars.
 Remember you asked the question about stirring the pot...it was not I that brought it up. Nor was it I whom added the sarcasm of calling me a "funny guy". Gems

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: Shot distance in Africa
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2006, 03:11:58 PM »
Jim,

I sent you a PM but with that last post want to be a bit more public. I would like to see a book with your thoughts on these things you write about. A bit long? Yes they are, that's why they are complete and understandable. I have been in the hunting game for about 45 yrs and I've read a lot from african wrtiers. Never have I read stuff that was so seemingly unbiased, complete and organized. That is why I asked you about moving a couple of your posts to a couple other sites. I do not doubt that other PH's and guides are as experienced as yourself, some more so, but they lack your ability to get the point across clearly, to back up what they say with believeable examples and to do it without bias.

Thank's Jim, now how about putting it in a book? I'll take a copy.

Don
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline jro45

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Re: Shot distance in Africa
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2006, 06:51:38 AM »
Where I'm going in Africa the shot distance is a little longer. The man at the farm in Africa said that the shots would be from 150yds to 250yds.
I'm going to South Africa the summer witch is winter in Africa of 2007.

Offline JJHACK

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Re: Shot distance in Africa
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2006, 12:33:04 PM »
Well, you must certainly be hunting the eastern cape. Not too many indiginous animals there, but the hunting is nice for those few that do live there naturally. Few animals in RSA live in the open plains most are living in the bush. However there are countless "texas" style hunts in the EC which can provide a far more open access to the game as they have wide open habitat. As an example the geography north of Joburg and surrounding that location is typical bush habitat. The Eastern and southern areas further south of the airport are wide open grasslands. In the nothern habitats there are about 25-28 speices natual. In the south there are about 6-8 natual depending upon where the line is at and what species your after. In the Eastern Cape you can hunt Aoudad sheep, fallow deer, red deer, wild boar, etc etc. just like a hunting ranch in Texas they import and stock almost all the huntable species they have.
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