338 Federal or 338 Winchester Magnum

[steveatsatx]

I won't take sides on this discussion as the biggest I own is a 300WSM. But - you owe it to yourself to read the article  on page 52 in this months Rifleman (Nov 06) before you decide.

You are a member of NRA, right?

STEVEATSATX

[SDS-GEN]

I'm planning on getting a 338 fed. I think it would be great for elk, black bear, and moose.  Would I use it on a big brownie?
Probably.  I don't like recoil, and the short action takes a few ounces off the gun.  The 338 mag has a wider selection of ammo and more power, which is great if you're shooting at elk that are 500 yards away.  I just haven't been in a situation, while hunting, that I've felt under gunned with 300 mag.  I'm thinking of the 338 fed as something that hits hard without the recoil (of the 300 win mag) and a lot lighter gun(my 300 weighs 11+pounds)

I see everyone talking about super giant magnum rifles being necessary to take out elk.  Makes you wonder how we nearly wiped them out 100 years ago? 

[rickweed]

I am a NRA member and have been for over 30 years. I don't get the Riflemen but will get that article in the Nov 06 issue. Thanks. SDS-GEN makes some good points on the need for the 338 Federal and Syncerus also has a point. I don't hand load so I don't know all the statistical stuff on the ifs, ands, and buts. I think what I am saying is that I want a 338. I don't want it to kick me into next year but if I get to shoot an 800 pound black bear here in PA or an Elk here, I have enough stuff. It's 338, either with or without the Magnum.

[patrick.hover]

Have you considered a 325WSM, the ballistics are between the 338 Federal, and 338 Win Mag.

I cant say enough on the .325 WSM and the 220 grain Power point.  I tell you...I shot 3 animals with my new gun in one month this year...from Antelope @ 200 yards... Bull elk @ 100 yards, and just yesterday a nice western Muley @ 250 yards all with the 220 Win. power point . All one shot kills and only the elk went a few yards since he was trotting at the shot. Bullet performance was superb.  The round shoots flat and carries a great big thump.(See My other post with elk pics is the "325 wsm awesome on elk!").  This cartridge WILL NOT beat you into next week, recoil feels like my 30'06 with 165 grains.  I really am impressed with the versatility ...I am going to bring this cartride to kill a Griz in Alaska this spring...I will not feel undergunned and do recommend you try it over the 338 Federal(not as fast or versatile...and the 338 win mag kicks pretty hard.......just my thoughts from a traditonal rifleman who has converted!   The 8mm has a great following in Europe and I think the .325 WSM is catching on fast here in the Old Glory..

Patrick.   

I want to get the Tikka T3 Hunter and they make the 270 WSM, the 300 WSM, the 300 Win Mag, 338 Federal and the 338 Win Mag but they do not make the 325 WSM. I have a regular 270 and a 300 WSM so I am wanting to get either the 338 Federal or the 338 Win Mag. Thanks for your help.

If you already have a 300 WSM then there is NO need for the 338 Fed.

Go with the 338 Win Mag and load 250 grain bullets. DONE.

[358Win]

I agree with an earlier comment about it being apples and oranges.  The 338 Federal is another attempt to get the shooting public to use the kind of common sense that should have made the 358 Winchester the most popular round since the 30-06.

As far as the 338 Winchester goes unless you have an Alaska Zip Code you don't need one.  Of course since when did need have anything to do with it.

Either of the 338 Federal or the 358 Winchester are superior game getters to the 30-06 ( I know blasphemy ) and are available in light short action rifles and still have less recoil and muzzle blast than the '06 in spite of identical energy and larger diameter wound channels.

[targshooter]

I would be leary of the 338 Federal at this point in time, it may disappear. If you want factory fodder and less power it would be okay if it sticks around. If you reload, you can always load the .338 WM down for recoil control. I own one, having bought it for a Colorado elk hunt. The recoil is manageable in the Leupold Rifleman 2-7x scoped Ruger Model 77 Sporter, which weighs in wearing the scope and a leather Whelen sling at just over 9 lbs. I load the Hornady 250 grain interlock over 65 grains of IMR 4350. It has a recoil that is stout but quite manageable. I never shoot this rifle from the bench, practicing and sighting in from the sitting and offhand positions. The Ruger fits me quite well and I use it for deer in the heavy undergrowth woods here in northern Minnesota. The high sectional density of the 250 grain bullet aids in brush penetration. I used to own a .338 WM in the early 70s and shot moose, bear and several deer with it. I started with the Hornady 225 grain bullet, but found the 250 grain gave better brush penetration (the 225 grain deflected fairly easily) and used it for from then on. The 250 grain bullet never remained in any game animal I shot. All were broadside shots, and all went down at being hit. This year's deer did the same at 100 feet with a neck shot through heavy brush. Additionally, the Ruger accepts the NECG N-100 peep on its scope ring mounts. Thus, I can switch from scope to peep as required. At 200 yeards this transition holds its zero well enough to be usable without requiring resighting in. My two cents, enjoy.

[rickweed]

With all your help, I have decided on the 338 Win Mag. I ordered the Tikka T3 Hunter today at Bud's Gun Shop. I am going to look into the Limbsaver and the mercury recoil reducer to help with the "kick". You have convinced me that it will be around for long while, there is great versatility in the loadings and it can take most anything in North America. I hope to hunt bear with it in Alaska, athough we have world record black bear right here in Pennsylvania. Thanks again for all your help.    Rickweed

[Sourdough]

I own three .338 Win Mags.  Two Rugers and a Thompson Center TCR.  I hand load, and the top of the stack for hot loads is one of the Rugers.  But for pure enjoyment the TCR, a light little single shot is by far the most fun to shoot.  Recoil is not bad, but I cut the loads down a little for it.  I have killed several Moose with it, one shot each.  And would not hesitate to use it on a brown bear hunt.  I have used it on whitetail in Tennessee.  Nice hole in, and nice hole out, = dead deer.  And extreamly accurate, with good range out to 500 yards easily, with enough energy to open a Nosler reliably.

[BUSTER51]

.338 win is the way to go ,lot's of power and ammo is easy to get and not too expensive. the recoil is very managable and your only going to fire it once or twice anyway .

[nasem]

I am very happy that you made your decision with the 338 win mag.  The only thing I can think of right now is a that long eye relieve from leupold

[nomosendero]

Wise choice! The 338 Fed does good for a round based on the modest 308 case, but it cannot run
with the 338WM & I agree with others that the recoil is manageable IF the gun is set up right.

[Don Fischer]

I would strongly suggest that you find someone that has a 338 mag and shoot it a few times first. Shoot it with the bullet's you think you'd like to use. You have your bases pretty well covered and a 338 mag DOES recoil, I've owned two of them. You have all you need and then some for everything you want to hunt. If the "MAYBE" brown bear hunt ever comes off, you could then get a rifle just for that, or you could use your 300wsm. The recoil of the 338 mag can be managed, but not if you only shoot it once in awhile. You have only one cartridge that might have a bunch of recoil, your 300 wsm. Different people have different recoil tolerences, myself, I don't much care for it anymore. It is a great cartridge but big cases burning lot's of powder and fireing heavy bullet's have a price,,,,recoil!

I recently met a guy over in Prineville that bough a 375 just for an African hunt in 2008. He was told that the recoil is just a push. He say's his is murdering him, so much for just a push!

[nasem]

I have shot both the 300 wsm (by the way, this is a GREAT elk round), but the 338 is in a whole different ball game.

It will recoil a little more than the 300 wsm esspecially when shooting hot 225 grainers or typical 250 grainers.  If the recoil starts to bother you, do what I did to learn to manage the recoil of my winchester 375 h&h.

First week:  Go to the range and shoot 4 rounds (less if you want to, but not more)
Second week:  Go to the range and shoot 4-5 rounds (less if you wish)
third week: 8 rounds (no more, less if you feel discomfort)
Fourth week: 10 rounds.

By now, you should be familur with how it kicks, and your gun should be zeroed well at 50 yards (maybe even 100).
One thing I learned about heavy recoil magnums is that the first couple rounds don't bother that much, its when you shoot more than 5 or 10 rounds your first time with the gun that people start to develope flinches.

right now, I am able to go to the range and put 15-20 rounds through my 375 H&h and easily get 1 to 2" groups @ 100 yards.  If I see my self getting tired and developing a minor flinch just before pulling the trigger, I stop immediatly

[Don Fischer]

nasem,

That's pretty much the way I learned to handle my 338's. It does take dedication tho. I got to where I could shoot 20 rds easily but that took some time! Also, if your gonna stick to the 225gr bullet and below, I think your only fooling yourself. I did that because the recoil with the 250gr was horrible and I had 225 and 200gr loads that worked well. The trurh is that a 30-06 or 300mag with 200 to 220gr bullet's will be just as effictive, but at some lesser distence at which most of your shooting will occur anyway.

[358Win]

Back in the 70's when I was in my 20's I had a 338 WM it kicked like hell, but at the time I thought that was fun.  I will say that if I had a choice between a 338 WM and a 375H&H, I'd take the 375 every time assuming equal rifle weight and minimal drop at the heel with a good recoil pad.  The actual recoil of the 375 is slightly higher, but the muzzle blast and flash from the 338 is quite a bit worse than the 375.  So once you've got your mind made up to step up to this level of recoil I'd say go for the 375H&H.  Or better yet hang on for another month or two and get the new 375 Ruger/Hornady cartridge.

Better yet, get the 338 Federal for all of your lower 48 states hunts, and rent a good 375 for your Alaska trip.  The 338 Federal, and the 358 Winchester for that matter, will both equal the 30-06 in muzzle energy.  But being based on the 308 case they use less powder and achieve equal energy by throwing a heavier, fatter bullet at slightly lower speeds.  The increased gas area is what makes this improved efficiency possible.  The basic law of physics operating here is Pressure = Force / Area so any basic case at a given pressure will generate more force as the area of the bullet base is increased.  Then Force = Mass * Acceleration.  So a higher force generates higher acceleration leading to an increase in muzzle velocity and thus muzzle energy.  Thus E(308) < E(338/308 = 338 Federal) < E(358/308 = 358 Winchester).  Note that this relationship holds with the same powder and the same barrel length.  From the stats I've seen the 338 Federal factory ammo has Energy slightly greater than 358 Winchester.  So they are using a powder that is not available to handloaders, so don't try to get equal performance out of your 338 Federal reloads as high pressures will be the result.  Both cartridges are SAAMI spec'ed at 52,000 CUP.

[nasem]

Don,
That is true, a 250 grainer from a 338 win mag will out kick the 225s and under but to me its kinda hard to tell.... I have a browning 338 win mag BAR and that takes 10-15% of the kick.  Shooting 250 grainers in my BAR feels like shooting 220 grainers from a bolt action 300 win mag

In my opinion, a man can do anything with a 220-225 grain bullet from either a 30 or 338 caliber in north america (except maybe the largest bears)

[redhawk500]

After listening to all of you experts, I am leaning towards the 338 Win Mag. I was at the gun shop the other day discussing this 338 Federal VS 338 Win Mag thing. He tells me that you (a gunsmith) can put on a BOSS type reducer (for about $125) and it takes a lot of the kick out of the 338 Win Mag. Any comments or have any of you done this?

I don't have a .338-06 or .338 Federal but if you reload, you don't need either if you have a .338 Win Mag. amd want to "take a lot of kick out of it", without the muzzle brake.  Look at the Hodgdon reloading manual, it's a treasure trove of light loads for the .338 Win Mag.  Granted, you do use 8 to 10 more grains powder than the .338 Federal, but it isn't a full powered factory or hand-loaded .338 Win Mag cartridge when you're done.  Federal factory loads are quoted as an 180 grain Accubond @ 2830, 210 grain Nosler Partition @ 2630 fps and Barnes Triple Shock X-Bullet 185 grain @ 2750 fps.  Using Varget powder in a .338 Win Mag you would need 57.9 grains (2871 fps) <minimum load>, 54.0 grains (estimated), and 55.0 grains (estimated) to get the same three results.  Alliant Powder data states a maximum load of 46 grains of RL-15 gives 2598 fps with a 200 grain Speer in the .338 Federal.  You can down load the .338 Win Mag and get results comparable to the .338 Federal, with a bit more recoil, in the same rifle weight.  If you want to move up to that brown bear or moose load, you can work up your load gradually and get accustomed to the change slowly.  I use 200 grain soft points from the cheapest source I can find, with 53.0 grains of Varget for my practice load in the .338 Win Mag. giving some 2597 fps nominal.  The .338-06 or the .338 Federal are both a little more efficient, but you have more top end with the .338 Win Mag. too.

[rickweed]

Folks, I bought the Tikka TS Hunter in 338 Win Mag and picked it up the other day. It is really a pretty gun and looks really well made. I don't reload so a lot of your statics just confuse me. I think I will shoot it as someone suggested before I think about a recoil reducing pad or mercury reducer or what ever. My 300 WSM in a Browning BLR kicks but not that bad. I expect a whole lot more from this gun. I really don't do much target shooting anymore either. So payping $30-$40 for a box of shells and not that big of a cost I guess. I remember buying 30-30 shells for $5 a box, in fact I still have a box with $4.99 on it. Anyways, the gun is really nice looking and it come with Tikka  rings. Now, finding a good scope that doesn't break the bank.

[nasem]

Im happy for you.... that tikka is a nice shooter, its a little lite but I think u'll be ok just as long as you don't over do it the first couple times you go to the range.

As far as factory ammo goes, pick up some of them Remington core-lokt 225 gr pointed-soft-point ammo, I have always seen my friends get good accuracy from them with any bolt gun.  From gander mountain, you get get a box for less than $25

As far as scope goes, whats your budget ? if 100-150, those Nikon prostaff 3-9X40 with that nice 3.6" eyereliefe would be perfect, you can get them for about $125 from www.theopticzone.com
If you want something a bit higher end, get a Leupold VX-i (my favorit cheap scope) 3-9X40, you can get by and obtain one from ebay for about $175 (add another $10 for shipping).
If you want something at the higher end, I'd opt for a VX-ii in 3-9X40, will cost you around $250-300 (depends on where you get it from)

All the scopes I mentioned give full life time warrenty, so if they ever break or anything for whatever reason, they will replace it for you for free.... 

[Rogue Ram]

Rickweed,

Any reports on how your .338 turned out???

Thanks

RR

[Sourdough]

I'll tell you the same thing I tell my students, and friends, who want to shoot a .338 Win Mag.  When starting out, no more than three shots at a session on the bench, then put it away for another day.  Unless you are using a rest like the Lead Sled.  These types of rest absorb the recoil when on the bench so you don't have to.  Shooting off hand, especially at game, you don't feel the recoil.

[Jim n Iowa]

I shoot and reload for the .338 wm. It is braked, it works fine on the bench trying out different hand loads. I usually shoot when I am alone one the range, however I think any shooter would have hearing protection. You are not going to work up loads for this cal with out recoil protection. This is a great hunting rifle as you can select from 180 to 275 bullets to reload. When I hunt the coyote in Iowa the wind is fierce, the dogs are hanging out 200+yds, so you need a heavy round.
Jim

[poncaguy]

I just got a 338 Federal barrel for my Encore Pro Hunter, accuracy is MOA and recoil is mild, about like a 270-308 to me, I like the round.

[Swampman]

Since you already have 6 deer rifles, I think I'd go with the .338 Winchester Magnum.  I really like the .338 Federal but I see it as being in the same clsss as the six rifles you already have.

[Sourdough]

358WIN:  You said the 338Federal was adiquate for Moose, but a little light for Elk?  I think you got that backwards.  Alaska Moose are twice the size of Elk.  If I'm not mistaken Elk go from 800 to 1000lbs, Moose average 1600 to 1800lbs.  With the rare big boys going over 2000lbs.  I don't think a necked up .308 is adiquate for something that big.

[Redhawk1]

I think you made a wise choice in the 338 Win Mag. I have one in a Browning A-bolt and it is a great round.

[Rogue Ram]

ROTFL........yall should have seen me with my .340 Weatherby that was built to be lightweight; had a Weatherby style stock "that will REALLY help with the recoil". SURE it did.  HA.  I've posted about this before...    First shot, I was in one of those rifle rests (can't think of the name), eyes, ears, heavy coat. Full load of H4831 behind a Sierra 250 grainer.     Muzzle went SKYWARD, my face went numb, I couldn't hear (wearing ears, too), then the blood started pouring out my head. Crazy thing nailed my shooting glasses and sent them into my head, I wasn't even close to the scope. Muzzlebrake made it like an 06 with 180 grainers, but it was so loud......   wouldn't group either, so sold it.

I am debating a .338 WM but wondering which route to go rifle wise.  I've shot plenty of .375s that "pushed" and were much tamer than that Weatherby cannon I had.  Have a pristine Mauser 98 action and considered .338-06 too.  Rifle is for elk, and that trip to Alaska that will eventually happen. Just wondered what happened to Rickweed.

RR

[EdinCT]

 I was in Alaska two years ago hunting Black bears I used a heavy loaded  45/70 and my hunting partner a 340 Weatherby mag. I shot a 400lb boar and he made one hop and died,my friend shot a bear about the same size at about 140yards and it was alive and coming when we reached it. On skinning his bear I saw the exit holes in the muscle made by the 225 gr accubond and was so impressed that I bought a 338 Mag for my next trip.
 Its not a rifle for target shooting but in a well stocked rifle its not painful either. I am going to a after market recoil pad like the limbsaver because it worked so well on the 45/70. I have had both shoulders operated on for bone spurs and they are a little more tender than they were 25 years ago.
Also if you load you can load it like a 338/06 for practice and ease up to Mag level for a hunt. It is truly a vers cal.

                                                                                                   My 2 cents,
                                                                                                              Ed
 

[jdt48653]

just go get a 340wby,and don`t worry anymore!

[redhawk500]

I am interested in getting either one of the new 338 Federal or a 338 Win Mag in a Tikka T3 Hunter. I already have a 243, 270, 30-30, 30-06, 308, 300 WSM but want something with maybe a little more punch but not a lot of kick. I live in PA and hunt deer and bear but never got an Elk license here (lottery with about 50 per year) but hope to get out west for Elk and maybe Alaska for a brown bear. I have been reading that the 338 Fed is a good all round cartridge but for med range shooting. However, all say the 338 Win Mag kicks like a mule. Please give me some help here. Thanks.

Federal's website lists three loads for the 338 Federal: 180 grain Nosler AccuBond at 2830 fps, 210 grain Nosler Partition at 2630 fps and 185 grain Barnes TSX at 2750 fps.  If you can stand a little inefficiency in powder charges, check out the Nosler Redloading guide fifth edition, under .338 Win Mag: the 180 grain Solid Base Ballistic Tip with 64 grains of RL-15 does 3017 fps, the 210 grain Nosler Partition with 61.5 grains of RL-15 does 2740 fps.  Hodgdon online reloading resourse lists 185 grain Barnes TSX with Varget  51.0 grains at 2596 fps up to 57.0 grains at 2841 fps.  I don't have data in front of me but their manual listed similar loads under the .338-06 that would work just fine with the .338 Win Mag.  My point is you can reload a mild, effective, fairly efficient .338 Win Mag load for deer hunting and get familiar with your rifle at reduced recoil and good accuracy.  I have a practice load I've been using for an upcoming moose hunt in my 24" barrel Remington 700 KS Mountain Rifle: Hornady 200 grain SP, 53.0 grains Varget, CCI 200 primers, 2494 fps.  My reloading note mentions "0.3 inch group at 50 yards."  This isn't conclusive of effectiveness as a deer hunting load but it demonstrates the potentional range of performance of the .338 Win Mag.  You can load down the .338 Win Mag with a relatively low cost in additional powder, still use large rifle standard primers and have a great deer rifle too.  My moose hunting load in the same rifle is a 225 grain Barnes TSX using 74.0 grains RL-19 at 2839 fps, Federal 215 primers.  My batch of powder was a little slow so I used my chronograph to work up to the listed 2838 fps from the Barnes Reloading Manual Number 3 and stopped.  The .338 Federal is a fine cartridge but it doesn't have the range of performance of the .338 Win Mag. when you get to heavy game animals and fast, heavy bullets.