300+-what does it take?

[Don Fischer]

Every time the subject of long range comes up we end up in a spitting match. How about we discuss what it does take to do it. I don't think the ethics of it can be seperated because I believe that many people really don't care weather or not they are accomplished enough to do it but rather they legally can so they will. So as best I can I am going to avoid the "E" word from here on. There are two guys I hope will enter this discussion as I think both not only talk a lot about it but also likely have the ability to do it, Nomosendero and Sourdough. Others may also and others may have only opinions to offer, that's ok, most things are opinion anyway, that's why we disagree.

The first thing I believe you need to shoot long range is a real commitment to shooting period. If you can shoot better than you do but take the good enought attitude, you'll never be good enought intentionally. Anyone that shoot's 1" group's and doesn't TRY for better lacks that commitment. The rifle come's to mind next. I don't believe you need to spend $1000+ on the rifle but, there are some things required. It should be well bedded and using the loads it shoots best. It does not need a fine custom trigger nor even a lightly adjusted factory trigger. What it needs for a trigger is a shooter that can use what he has. The, what we call better, triggers, really only make it better for us to control the let off. If you have a five or six pound trigger, it will not make you more incompetant. I think a long range rifle should also have more heft than I'd like to carry around all day. But the weight assist's in holding the rifle still and in controling recoil. It should be topped with the best 3-9X scope you can afford. I would limit to 3-9X because to much scope brings in other problems without allowing you to see all that much better at 300+yds. It is true that the higher power scopes work but I don't think they are necessary. The rifle should also be chambered in a cartridge that handles heavy for cal bullets well. The advantage is bullets of better penetrating qualities striking an animal down range from, say, margional angles. That means that velocity is aslo important. But its remaining velocity that counts, not muzzle velocity. This means again heavy for cal bullet for its greater B.C. which suggests it's ability to over come gravity and maintain velocity down range. I have felt for years that the best long range cartridges were the 7mm mag's and the 300 mag with heavy bullets for that very reason. They deliver more energy by arriving at the impact point with a heavier bullet at greater retained velocity. An example is that a 300 mag should drive a 190/200 gr bullet as fast as a 30-06 w/165gr bullet. Penetration is a product of velocity and energy.

Back to the personnal comitment, the shooter should make a real effort to learn to shoot from field positions without rests for the simple matter that getting into proper positions takes muscle tensions out of the way. When I did these things, we had no bi-pods and I could drop into a sitting, kneeling or prone position that was right without thinking about it. You really should learn to estimate range AND get a decent range finder. If for some reason your estimate and the range finder don't come close, somethings wrong. I believe that at one point Nomosendero said that he hunts with his brother and they BOTH take readings with they're own range finders and compare them BEFOR shooting. A good idea. I also think it would be a good idea to invest in a good bi-pod and learn to use it. I've never owned one but understand the the firmness of the ground can make a difference with them. I use shooting sticks now when I set up somewhere to shoot.

It was brought up by Beemanbebe and by Graybeard about following up on shots you may think missed and I think thats a good point. I've seen to many animals that looked missed that we found just over a hill dead. Also, marking the spot is a learned trait. But in some cases its gonna be awful hard to do. Therefor it would be well to hunt with someone who stay's put and marks the spot while the other goes and looks fot it.

I'm quit sure that no matter what is said, this long range stuff will never cease, even if it was illegal. So I hope we can talk about this in the frame of mind of how to do it rather than if's it's the right thing to do. OK, where you guys at?

[Redhawk1]

Lots of time at the range is what it takes. I am at the range year around practicing at long range, I also know where my bullet is at any distance between the muzzle and the distance I intend to shoot at.  I don't use charts or ballistic tables, I find out by actually doing it.

This subject could go on for years and still some will never agree, but that is fine, I do what I know what I am capable of.  I have people doubt that I can hit golf ball at 200 yards with my 22-250, but I know I can, because I do it. I don't have to prove my shooting ability to anyone or try to impress anyone, I do it for my self gratification.

Long distance shooting is a mind set, if you think it is a long shot, it is. But if you practice and you are confident in your ability a 300 yard shot is just as easy as a 100 yards shot.

Yes, there is a lot of variables in longer range shooting, but once you have done your work at the range, you know your limitations.

Long range shooting is not for everyone and as long as you are confident in your range and stick with it, you won't have any problems.

The road for successful long range shooting is, the commitment and patents to shoot well and be disciplined with your shooting. Also your equipment should be up for the task. You need to see what you are shooting at in order to make the shot.  So good optics is key as well as customizing the ammo to your gun. What I mean by that is, find the load that shoots the best in your gun.

Nothing beats range time and hours of sitting at the bench, I have been at the range for 14 hours in the last week alone.

[jpsmith1]

You've about got it wrapped up.  If you choose to shoot at 300+, you obviously need a rifle/cartridge combo that works effectively at range.  The 300s and, I hate to admit, the 7mms would fit the bill.  A bipod should almost be mandatory.  The stability that it can quickly add to your gun is amazing and worth the extra weight.

As Redhawk said, practice is probably the first and most important thing for long range shooting.  The once a year type shooter is probably not likely to be a competent longer range shooter.

[Coyote Hunter]

When I only had access to 100-yard ranges I thought 200 yards was long.  When I joined a club with longer ranges and 200 yards became the norm for most of my rifle and a fair amount of pistol shooting, 200 yards kept getting shorter and shorter.  In the last few years I’ve shot more from the 300- and 400-yard positions than in previous years and now even 300 yards is pretty much a chip shot for a kill-zone sized target.  Much depends on the rifle, of course, as my bolt guns easily outshoot my levers.  While I haven’t joined the “500 Club”, two coyotes have fallen at ranges of 480 and more.

There are only three times I have gone beyond 400 yards.  The first was at the NRA Whittington Center where I was able to play with the 500-meter steel rams.  I used my Marlin .375Win and .45-70 and knocked down a lot of rams once I got the range and wind figured out.  Even though both guns went 4 of 5 with their last shots, accuracy was not good enough that I would consider shooting game with them at that distance.  The other time was 2-3 weekends back where Zach, a friend of Daughter #1, and I were shooting clay pigeons at the 300-yard line.  Even though he had not shot in 4 years, he thought it was “too easy”.  There wasn’t a bench at the 400-yard line so we backed up to 500 yards.  After a couple ranging shots on my part (new 6.5-20x scope with a mil-dot reticle), I hit a clay pigeon on the second shot.  I handed Zach the .22-250 and he also hit one on the second shot.  It was then time for the .257 Roberts and its 4.5-14x scope.  This time we had a simple duplex reticle.  Once again I took a couple ranging shots then went for a clay pigeon.  And again I got one on the second shot.  As did Zach.   We immediately backed up to the 600-yard position where I took a ranging shot with the .300 Win Mag and its Burris Fullfield scope with Ballistic Plex reticle.  The first shot just missed the freshly painted 18” gong at about the 10:30 position.  I made an adjustment in the sight picture and placed the second shot about 3” out from center in the same general direction.  Zach then took one shot.  The result was a 2-shot “group” of about 2”, centered about 3” out in the 10:30 direction.

OK, those limited experiences do not make me a long range shooter – but they do give me some idea of what is possible the first time at those ranges, even with someone who hasn’t shot in 4 years.  One might surmise that if a thing is possible the first time it is attempted, it should get easier with more experience.

Here’s what I took away from those experiences and the preparation that made them possible:

1.   It helps to have an accurate rifle.   In general that means time at the range selecting loads, whether factory or handloads and it may mean making modifications to the rifle.

2.   It helps to have good glass with some sort of ranging mechanism, whether that involves twiddling knobs or simply using a reticule that has mil-dots or hash marks.  I prefer the simplicity and speed of the dots and hash marks.

3.    Some practice is essential – you must know where your rifle is shooting ad you must know that you can place the bullets consistently.

4.   The wind will humble you.  At the Whittington center I was allowing several feet for wind drift when shooting the 500-meter rams with the Marlins.  It is not so critical with most bolt guns, but a 10mph wind will cause a 3038fps 180g .30 TSX to drift 6” at 300 yards.

5.   Accurate range determination is critical.  I now have a laser that reaches 400 yards on a decent target, 500 on a great target.  I hate to admit how many times the range finder has humbled me, either because I was estimating the range at too far or not far enough.

6.   A good rest makes a difference.  Shooting off the bench is one thing, but shooting from field positions invariably causes bad things to happen to my groups.  Clay pigeons at 300 with my .257 Roberts are a piece of cake from a bench rest, not so when I go to shooting sticks.

7.   A ballistic calculator is a very useful tool.  I have tried several but use “Point Blank”, a free calculator available at www.huntingnut.com.

8.   A chronograph is also a very useful tool. 

9.   It is possible to extend your range and still achieve desirable results.  It helps to have a good base of experience even if it is not totally relevant.  For example, I feel long range shooting with smaller cartridges, such as varmint shooting, is useful practice which can help one with the larger cartridges.

10.   While I no longer consider 300 yards particularly long, 500 yards would give me pause even with the .300 Win Mag.  More practice at 500 and 600 would probably change that.

You’ll notice I’m not one that believes you have to spend the bulk of your free time at the range.  Some will require more preparation than others, but I think it is somewhat like riding a bicycle - once you get the feel for it the task becomes relatively easy. 

[Redhawk1]

Coyote Hunter, the only part of your post I disagree with is, the amount of time spent on the range.
In my opinion, the only way to remain proficient in your shooting, you need to practice.

Sure I can do well with little practice, but I remain on the top of my game when I stay proficient and practice.

[Don Fischer]

I'm not sure which one of you I agree with on practice because I shoot a lot because I like to shoot. Helps that I have my range two minutes from here, maybe less. I do think tho that practicing shooting and shooting are two different things. I have two book's, one I got about a year ago, "The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy"  X Glenn Newick and, my own bible, "The Accurate Rifle" X Warren Paige. Neither deal with long range shooting all that much but both deal in accutate rifles and what they take. They also go into shooting positions from the bench and the importance of little things. When I became aware of these things, I did become a better shot. Until my Warren Paige book I wasn't much better than the average guy. But I had one small hand up while stationed in Germany. I worked TDY quite often at the main base (Sembach Air Force Base) rifle range assisting the range master. There I learned the impotrance of body positioning in shooting. It cannot be overlooked if you expcet to get the most out of the rifle. Not to make the most of everything at a bench is a mistake.

Another thing I find about the bench is that those that do it a lot, tend to better understand the need for somekind of rest if at all possible. In the early days we were taught to "stand on our hind legs and shoot like a man". Good to know how to shoot off hand but it is aslo the absolutely worst position to shoot from. And still today I see people with that attitude. They haven't got a clue how well their rifle shoot's, you know the crowd, "I can't hit a target but run a piece of meat by me..".

Practice cannot be underestimated. But shooting for the sake of shooting, while better than not shooting at all, will never make you a good long range shooter.

Another thing that happens is that the shooting techniques learned at the bench get carried over to the field. We just eliminate the bench and substitute some kind of rest with an understanding of how bad an unpadded rock really is, the rifle jumps away from hard objects. The bad part about bench shooting is it tends to make some of us lesser game shots, as in snap shooting. We have a tendendicy to take to long to shoot at times, waiting for all the right things to make the very best shot we can. Shooting at a target and doing 1" or less group's requires the shooting disaplines be followed. Shooting at an animal running off throws them out the window. But those that shoot from a bench a lot, at least those I know, have a tendicity to wait for a better shot, such as a standing shot. Better yet a broadside shot. And most much prefer the big target of the chest cavity to the smaller, but deadly, neck shot. They understand it's much easier to make a good hit on that 8" pie plate than a 5" pie plate at long range. I suspect that if they were to shoot at pie plates in practice, they would choose the small one, I do.

Now I have a question about the mil dot reticules. We've been thru all types of range finder reticules over the years and none have lasted. With the mil dot it is my understanding that you simply use a lower dot as ranges reach farther. If you are shooting say a 30-06 with a 180gr load and the mil dot works, how does the same dots work with heavier or lighter bullets with different B.C.'s? The problem or so I would think is that is that the only thing that stays constent is the position of the dots.

[Coyote Hunter]

Redhawk1 -

You are absolutely correct about the need to practice for a person to reach and stay at top proficiency levels.  I spend far more time hunting elk than anything else and their kill zone has been rather accurately described as the size of a trash can lid – we’re not talking about the kind of shooting needed to win competitions and top proficiency, while a definite plus, is not necessarily required.

I don’t spend much time shooting paper any more except when doing load development or checking out a scope setting.  Most of the time I shoot clay pigeons, usually at 200 yards and often at 300 yards.  When I can set a rifle up, hand it to someone that hasn’t shot in 4 years and have him complain that the clays at 300 are “too easy”, I think it says something about the need for constant practice.

That said, I am all for lots of practice with the rifle(s) and load(s) that will be used to hunt with.  And not just from the bench, although I think shooting from a bench is important as it helps one learn the best-case situation.  The ideal situation, IMHO, is one where the shooter knows the best that the shooter and their equipment can do as well as what to expect from field shooting positions and conditions.  Accordingly, I think the responsible shooter builds in generous room for error when setting up shots in the field.  Some people are comfortable with the idea of shooting game at whatever range they can keep all shots on a pie plate.  But the testing is generally done at a range of some sort nd usually in comfortable conditions.  I think a better idea is to use a 6” diameter target as a gauge to allow more room for error under field conditions.  Its one thing to go prone on the grass at a range (or dirt in my case) with the sun at your back, quite another when a big dose of adrenalin is pumping through your system and the ground is wet and muddy, covered in 6” of snow or consists of a talus slope with the sun in your eyes.

Dead is dead, but I prefer my animals to be dead with a bullet that landed where intended, not off in some random direction.  Practice helps ensure such an outcome, but does not guarantee it.  A lack of practice does not preclude such an outcome, nor does it help ensure it.  In the end I think we both agree that it's much better to practice than not.

[Val]

I have a laser rangefinder and the bullet drop charts of my hunting loads. The bullet drop charts are laminated in clear plastic and I take them to the field with me. When out I range on the terrain features or if time is available, on the actual game. Bullet drop at 300 yards is in the 8-12 inch range, depending on muzzle velocty, and drops of pretty rapidly from there. It is amazing how inaccurate a man's estimate of range is, especially if the terrain is not flat. Then of course you need to practice, practice, practice, during the off season.

[Coyote Hunter]

Don –

Thanks for your service – I’m also ex Air force and Daughter #1 is currently serving as a Russian linguist in the Air force.  John Kerry thinks we’re all stupid – hope you’re voting this year (and am sure you are).

Some folks completely dismiss the need to shoot at a bench, but I agree with you and find it extremely useful for the reasons you cited.  Of all the possible field positions, the one I find least useful is the standing offhand position.  Missed an “easy” offhand 100-yard shot at a doe back in the early 80’s haven’t had much use for the standing position since then.  Nor are snap shots something I do – I’d rather see the game go than wound and lose it.  (Coyotes excepted, nailed one on a dead run at a smidge under 300 yards and quite a few runners closer in.)

As to the mil-dots, different loads require different holdover adjustments.  You have to know the trajectory of each load and adjust accordingly.  Practice with each load will tell you which dot to use at which range.  With my .22-250 its easy as I only shoot one load and the first dot represents a splattered clay at 500.  The .300 Win has a Burris Ballistic Plex reticule which is supposedly graduated to match certain factory loads.  I don’t zero at 200 as Burris suggests but the hash marks work reasonably well out to 500 anyway. 

[Redhawk1]

Don Fischer, I don't know if your bench shooting related to game shooting pertains to me. I practice shooting quickly. My buddies and I will have multiple targets set up, when the spotter calls a target, I have to find and shoot the target in 10 seconds.
 
I practice off shooting sticks, pack packs to try to simulate field conditions. I don't like to see guys sit there for 2 minutes and wait and wait to take a shot. I have watch several shows where the hunter has the animal in position and then wait's and wait's to finally make the shot. Once my cross hairs are on my target I squeeze the trigger, as long as I do my part the bullet will do the rest. That is where knowing your equipment is a big factor. And therefor practice is above all the key to successful long range shooting, at least for me it is.

Coyote Hunter, I am not in competitions and don't compete at all. But I feel I owe it to the animal I am about to shoot, my best shot.  Sure the target area on animals are larger than most guy shoot in competitions, but then again we are not dealing with killing an animal either.

The reason I like to practice so much is, I leaned to control my breathing and therefor make better shots. I am also sure I could hand my rifles to someone else and they can make a great shot, but the concern I have is can they do it consistently.

We all have our own way of doing it, the end result we all want is to be able to make the best shot we can, regardless of the distance.

[Don Fischer]

Redhawk,

I do shoot fairly quick unless I'm working up loads. What your doing I have the advantage of going out in the field and doing. Pretty much the same as you at targets of opertunity at unknown ranges. I am lucky enuogh to have areas where I can shoot farther than anyone would concider reasonable. There for I'm in areas where I do hunt and the target are nothing more than small rocks on a hillside across ravines and/or canyons. I think your right on about that. Usually when I do that, I have only a rifle with me and shoot mostly from sitting position, seems that the hardest position for me to find a place to shoot is in prone. If rocks are not a problem then I'm either with my head downhill or to tall grass and sagebrush to allow it.

When working up loads, I do slow down quite a bit but still shoot rather fast compared to others I've known. I also shoot three shot group's after I find a load I like to see what I get thru a hot barrel. I always figured that if I hear a third shot it's either real messy or a miss. I seldom shoot more than one shot at game. But if the animal does not go down fairly quick, I will shoot again. Again where I do most of my hunting animals just can't get out of sight that fast.

The town I live in has a population of about 35 on a good day, open spaces right out the door.

[Redhawk1]

Don Fischer, sounds like we do the same thing. When I am working up loads, I take my time shooting. But I don't sit there to long, the longer I sit there looking at my target, the more I see my cross hairs move. I guess when I am shooting, my mind set is, if the cross hairs are one target the trigger gets pulled.

I love to shoot and find it gratifying to bust targets at long range, but in the same token, when I am hunting I want any shot I am comfortable with, sure I like a nice up close shot, but when it comes down to it, I know I can make the long shot if needed.

[Don Fischer]

Ok, how do you guys sight in your rifles? I use the max point blank range method and I think coyote Hunter said the same. On a big game rifle, I use an 8" target and my varmit rifle a 5" target. The reason is that I want to get everything out of the cartridge I'm using befor I have to go to holding over. Some people scoff at that method but I've never heard them say why. But if you can keep your bullet in the kill zone as long as possible befor having to make sight adjustments, it does seem a better idea to me. I don't think it really matters if you never shoot over 100yds, 200yds or what. A rifle sighted in that way is always at it's max potentional. I do cronograph eevery load I used with a Pact MK IV which has a built in balistics calculator. I also don't think it's absolutely necessary to do that. Velocities should be close enough to listed that trajectory at max point blank won't be effected that much. Then the trajectory charts in manuals can be used. But I also shoot from a good bench at targets at those known ranges just to be sure everything is right.

I think that sometimes we get a little to hung up on velocity as the difference of 50 or 75 fps is just not be that great in terms of trajectory, the shape of the bullet would matter more. And of course the velocity is part of what determines retained energy but, it seems that even those beliefs are flawed. I say that because I've heard to many reports where what we might concider an indaequate cartridge with inadequate energy has gone ahead and killed something it wasn't supposed to be able to. That of course says a lot for shot placement. But the best understanding of shot placement in the world is still useless unless you can deliver the bullet.

I think it's important to understand that it really doesn't matter if your shooting a 338-378 Weatherby or a 300 Savage. Hit a deer in the brain at 500 yds and you have a dead deer. As 500yds is well beyond the ability of any cartridge without sight adjustment, at that range with the bullet dropping rapidly, you need to be very close in range estimation and have the ability to know how much hold over to use, the Savage takes a bit more. But out to around 300yds +/- either would be relatively simple to shoot at and hit a vital zone when zeroed in for it's max point blank range. The main difference is what bullet weight each could do it with and the resulting energy.

[Coyote Hunter]

Ok, how do you guys sight in your rifles? I use the max point blank range method and I think coyote Hunter said the same. On a big game rifle, I use an 8" target and my varmit rifle a 5" target.

Maximum Point Blank Range method using chrono’d velocities.  I use a 6” target for everything, big or small.

See you guys Tuesday, am leaving in a couple minutes to go elk and deer hunting.

[nomosendero]

I have been quite busy lately with work, I have glanced at this thread a couple of times, I finally have a little time to respond.

Many no doubt know more than me on this, but here are some of my views.

Don, I agree with most of your first post & the others in this thread for the most part, but I differ on the trigger. I want the  lightest pull that is still safe,including with gloves if hunting a cold region like out West. Yes, it is important that a shooter knows how to use what he has, but case in point, a Target shooter can use what he has far better than the average shooter, yet will not settle for a heavy pull that is not crisp & also with no creep.

Redhawk, I could not agree more with your emphasis on practice. A person can have the best equipment, but if he cannot utilize the inherent accuracy of the platform, he cannot be successful. One of you comments was, "I find out by actually doing it" & this is what
a person MUST do. I don't shoot at game beyond the distance that I practice. Also, I chrono my loads, sight-in accordingly & then check that trajectory out as far as I will shoot. Sometimes the BC of a bullet is a little different than what is published & you have to verify.

Coyote Hunter had some good points. One of the biggies was his statement that "the wind will humble you". Ah, yes it will. I do some practice here in AR in March & April when it is windy for that reason. Also, on some days in WY. when the wind is extreme even for there or very irratic, those days I avoid the longer shots, period. You must use common sense. Coyote hunter said also that he sees a big difference between 300 & 500 yards, yea me too!! You can take a good sporter with decent bedding & a good barrel
& a good 3x9 scope & if you practice alot & concentrate well with a good rest & a good load, a 300 yard & somewhat further is not that tough, but 400-500 & beyond is another matter. I also don't really view 300 yards as a really tough shot anymore under these
circumstances.

With my flatter shooting guns I don't like to use MPBR the way I did in the past & the way some gun scribes suggest. Many want to sight in at 300 yards, but many times the higher part of the arch will be 3.75-4" high at the mid range. It is easy to shoot over an animal with this sighting. I prefer to sight-in my 25-06AI, 300WM & a couple of others at about 225-250 yards, this allows a high arch of 3", the difference seems small, but it has helped me. I then want my 300 yd. & further holdovers to be predetermined on a bal. type reticle/mil dot system. To the max ranges that I shoot, I have these holdovers plotted on a card taped to the stock or a small chat taped on the inside of a scope lens cap when it is popped up. I know some who click up, but it is easy to do so for a shot & then if it is not taken, you may not click back down exactly as you should & then get another opportunity that turns into a shot & blow it.. Besides, if you know exactly how to use these holdovers, it will give you the precision you need for big game animals.

I am very particular about my reloads & only use the better bullets for the intended job. This means for shooting long, bullets with a high BC, great accuracy & terminal performance required at all ranges that we will be shooting. Make sure you pick a bullet with
enough sectional density & bullet const. for the job & expansion properties as well at all ranges.

Because shots much over 300 get harder, I have been a little more picky with a couple of my rifles that I carry where long range shots are likely. The guns that are a little heavy with heavy tubes are much easier to utilize in the field. For this I like Sendero's, heavy Savages, or custom rifles of this type. They can be lighter, but they will be harder to hold with precision.
The barrel needs to be of good quality.
I prefer the action to be pillar/glass bedded or in the case of my Alum. bedding block Rems., I want them skim bedded.
It helps a bunch to have a crisp & light trigger.
Wood can work if set up properly, but I prefer Fiberglass or Lam. for these rifles, yes I like the way wood looks.
For the open country, like the Harris bipod with a light rear bag(easy to carry). This gives a 3 point platform. For the shot, if possible, position the rifle where it will pretty much point to the target without you holding it on the target. This means you are not forceing
the crosshairs on the target, which indicates the gun is not in a bind. If you force the crooshairs on the animal because the rifle wants to point elsewhere, the rifle will torque when fired, & a miss is the likely result. Take your time & with practice this can be done fast.
If the bipod is setting on hard dirt, rake the bipod back & forth quickly & loosen the dirt a little. Again, with practice you can do this quick. I don't shoot a bi-pod directly off of a rock. I normally have a jacket, raincoat or something in my pack & I will lay this down on a rock if I have to shoot off of one, then lay the bi-pod on it. This is another BIG reason for the type of rifle I described, many sporter rifles, esp. if not bedded properly will not work at all with a bipod. You must see if your gun shoots diff. with one before using. Again. we are talking about longer shots here, alot of Deer & Elk hunting will be in areas where you won't be doing thjese things.

Think about all of the enviourmental conditions before squeezing off the round. The ultimate responsibility is our own in making sure the bullet goes where intended. 

[Redhawk1]

nomosendero, I agree with what you said. We all have valid points and others that want to shoot long range should read and heed our advice.

[jro45]

I belong to a 600yd range and I shoot to 300, 400, 500, and 600 yds. I also belong to a 200 yds range where I have shot a golf ball at 200yds dead center with my 7mm Mag. I know what I can do at any range up to 600yds.

[Mac11700]

Most folks here have touched on the 2 biggest factors in shooting over 300 yards.....practice and .the wind...If you cannot judge the wind..you really won't be able to shoot consistantly over this distance..Most here will use a accurate rifle...most here will know their bullets trajectory..most here will know how to utilize any field position to accurately hit what they are aiming at..Most here have practiced shooting at long distances...I belong to the 500 yard club..and did so long before the advent of lazer range finders...ballistic caluculators..and the use of super premium bullets...I did it by shooting at these distances a-lot in the wind...in the rain...in the heat...in the snow...I burned up a ton of ammo and a couple of barrels in the process...It is so much easier these days becoming a proficent rifleman...we have all the modern tools to make it so...Wind anomometers...lazer range finders..premium bullets that have the highest BC's..the best barrels available at a fraction of what they once cost..but..we have 1 thing even better...we have some of the absolute best factory ammunition at our disposal...something we didn't have in the 70's and 80's...and this opens the door to many more people to be able to shoot long range...It doesn't mean they should...but the oppourtunity is there with todays modern rifles..

Here's how I look at it..To be a proficient long range hunter......You have to know where your gun shoots hot or cold......You have to know where the ammo hits without any wind..You have to know how hard the wind is blowing and how your load moves in the wind so you will be able compinsate for it..You have to know at what velocity the bullet your using fails to open properly..so you won't turn it into a FMJ bullets......and... You must know what is beyond your target...These things are primary...all the rest just increases your accuracy at that range...Placing a bullet into a 8" circle at 400 yards isn't that difficult if you know the above things...but without all the rest of what you've said..you'll never be consistant in that 8" circle...when you can start actually making small groups within it...then you have mastered that range... with that rifle...Shooting off hand in an unsupported position should be part of everyones practice routine...It teaches control...not only with the trigger...but thought control as well...It forces you to think............Safety should always be paramount to any type hunting/shooting...we do...and if a person has practiced all field positions...then they will know when to pull the trigger...because the mental aspect of this is just as important as the physical..Yes..it does take an accurate rifle/load combo to become consistant and deadly accurate.....but even using a medeocore rifle with enough practice will increase the odds of your success...all it takes is the dedication to do it correctly...

Mac

[Don Fischer]

Nomosendero, Actually I do agree that the trigger count's for a lot, mine are all set at 3# except my 30-06 which is a custom springfield with a reworked military trigger. But just as everyone has some different weight they 're comfortable with, I don't think a 3# trigger is as important as being able to shoot what you have. And that gets back to what everyone else is saying, that takes practice, even with what we call a good trigger.

I think one thing we really haven't touched on enough is the choice of bullets. In the end, its the bullet that finishes the job and if the bullet is poorly chosen, all the prep in the world could be wasted. I believe that the long range bullet is as Mac said. It must preform well at the point of impact reguardless of it's muzzle velocity. A couple things go hand in hand here and that is sectional density and balistic coefficent. As one goes up, so does the other in any bullet. S.D. is an indication of a bullet's ability to penetrate and B.C. an indication of a bullets ability to over come air restence. As both increase, penetration increases and flatness of trajectory increases. To many people believe that to get flatter trajectory, you go to a lighter bullet thats faster. Not true. At some point the heavier bullet will pass up the light bullet. But the bullet can be to heavy if it cannot be driven a suffieient velocity to make use of the bullet. ie: the 200gr bullets make a wonderful bullet for 300 mag for long range but would be a bad choice in a 308 or like cartridge. In the 308 a better choice would be the 165. And the 165 would not be a good choice in 300mag for a couple reasons. First, if your not using something like a TSX, you stand a good chance of bullet failure at close range; Second, the 300 mag has the capacity to drive the 200gr bullets at velocities to make good use of their ballistic qualities AND deliver greater power at impact point plus better penetration due to greatly increased S.D. Another thing that can be said in favor of the heavier bullets is that while they are still effected by the wind, they are not effected as much. A 140gr bullet from my 6.5x06 is not effected by wind anywhere near as much as the 75gr V-Max I shoot from my 243.

I'm not sure if I know what kind of starting velocity a long range rifle should have but I'd think in the neighborhood of 3000fps; more would be that much better. I say that because the muzzle velocity will determine the down range remaining velocity and that in turn, bullet performance. I believe that remaining velocity at impact should be around 2000fps to insure good bullet performance.

I do not and never have used the premiun bullets of today but, I think that in the faster magnums, they would be the bullets of choice. One big reason for that. They will hold together at the more normal ranges at those high velocities. And unless your going out specifically looking for long shots, the majority of game is shot relatively close. With todays premiums they become a bullet that functions at all ranges.

In my view, the long range rifle would be fairly heavy so not the best for hiking, would have a longer barrel so not so handy in close cover, a min 3x9 scope which I think detracts from the close cover rifle and should fire heavy for caliber bullets fairly fast which increases recoil. If you can't shoot 1" group's consistently from a bench with it, that means over 90% of the time, you need lots more practice. If the rifle won't do it, you need to fix the rifle. And as has already been said, you need to have the ability to shoot a min 8" group, everytime, at the distence your shooting.

Mac,you said you belong to the 500yd club. Varmit Hunters Assoc.?

[Mac11700]

I thought I would add something else here...With the latest equipment and computer programs available...they only mean so-much when it comes to shooting long distance..I am a firm believer in having the needed trajectory information before even shooting a single round now-a-days...namely because of the costs involved in using premium bullets...and I will print out all of my needed data before using it and study it.....to see that it corrsponds with what I actually get in the field..and off the bench..

.Don...while having the highest BC bullet available makes it look like it would be the best choice for shooting these distances...it isn't always needed...Using Nosler partition's lower BC one can argue that it isn't as "good" as using a Triple shock..or a Sirrocco..or a just about anything else with a higher BC...but when it comes to the performance inside the game...it is certainly one of the harder bullets to beat and what most others are judged by...Same too for the Accubonds...or even the Silver ballistic tips...You have to know what the bullet will do on the inside of what your shooting...I've also found..that these bullets aren't as difficult to find a really accurate load as some of the other premiums available..Put the 180-200grain  338 bullets into perspective..they may not have the SD of the heavier weight bullets...but they will fly practiclly just as well for my normal field usage...which can be from mearly feet away...to 400-600 yards awasy...Due to their design..they will preform admerably on most game hunted at these distances...And...I might add for a fraction of cost...This too is always a consideration to take into account..that the cheaper it is to practice..the more one can and become more proficient ...If your practice bullets are the same as your hunting bullets...so-much the better...The trade off in the heavier bullets for most calibers is trajectory and expandability...This is where bullet design is critical...and crafting a all around load that will preform up close...and at long distance is important...One never knows the exact distance the oppourtunity will presents itself for the shot...It's better...at least for me in the terrain I hunt to be fully prepaired...for all possibilities

Mac

[dw06]

One word "dedication".You can't buy it its got to be earned.It takes more practice and dedication than the average joe is willing to do.

[Coyote Hunter]

Came back from elk hunting a day early as my wife was hospitalized Saturday night.  Didn’t matter as Dave and I both tagged out Saturday so all we missed was a day of deer hunting.

My shot was a minute or so after Dave’s.  A herd of elk passed to our left, coming into view at 40 yards and moving on to a slope I estimated to be 300 yards out.  Dave picked up a straggler at 80 yards and it was my turn.  The guide (provided free by the ranch – we were hunting with Ranching For Wildlife tags) lasered a cow and said “260”.  OK, not 300 but this and other threads I have been participating in certainly were in the back of my mind.  Now it was crunch time – could I do it?

I was shooting from an awkward kneeling position, using Dave’s sticks.  Both knees were on the ground and I separated them as best I could given the rocky ground and sage.  I set my butt on the heels of my boots and worked to stop wobbling.  The air had just a hint of movement and the herd was strung out on the slope, almost all broadside silhouettes.  Many were stacked up and unshootable.   The guide suggested the last cow, but I looked and it appeared to be a calf.  A larger cow further ahead separated and I put the crosshairs on her instead.  Dave and the guide were urging me to shoot but the scope was on its lowest setting and I took a second to crank it up to 7x and recheck for small spike antlers.  All was well and I placed the crosshairs on the shoulder, got steady and touched one off.  The recoil knocked me off target but the hollow-sounding “whump” had told me what I needed to know.  On later inspection it was a well-centered double lung hit with the bullet passing through both front legs.  The cow went 20 yards and dropped.

In retrospect the shot would have been good a good distance further.  The drop tables were in my pocket, but at 260 yards I made no adjustment and the bullet impacted as desired.  I had achieved what I wanted with the shot, which was to form a steady platform in less than perfect conditions and to get off a well-placed shot.  Had I been adjusting for the elevation for 400 yards (the second hash mark in the Ballistic Plex reticule), the results would have been no different.   The bullet was a 180g North Fork that drove through both scapulas and everything in-between, then exited.

The guide said his clients had taken 13 elk in the previous 9 days with only 4 being one-shot kills, don’t know the ranges.  His client the day before had wounded a bull in the front leg at 160 yards with his first shot and run out of ammo (5 more shots) trying to stop it.  The bull got away.

[Sourdough]

I sight in for 300 yards.  Once done all setting on scope are made from that point.  My reasoning is that under that range I usually don't have time to use a range finder or make adjustments.  The game often knows I am there and shots need to be quick.  Beyond 300 yards I usually have time to make adjustments and things are slower. 

One thing that needs to be considered when shooting beyone 300 yards is will the bullet have the velocity and energy to do the job when it gets there.  I have found that beyond 500 yards with my  30-06, some bullets will not open properly.  At 600 yards I get a hole in and a hole out with no expansion at all.  If a bone is hit at 600 yards, no hole out sometimes.     

[Coyote Hunter]

Pics of the elk hunt are here:  http://coyote-hunter.blogspot.com/

[nomosendero]

That is a big Cow, congrats & good shot under the circumstances!

I will continue to remember your Wife in my prayers.

[dw06]

Pics of the elk hunt are here:  http://coyote-hunter.blogspot.com/

Enjoyed the pics and reading about hunt.I could smell the sage just looking at pics.