Author Topic: toby bridges is a joke (Read 2295 times)

dodd3 · « **on:** November 03, 2006, 01:39:05 AM »

it seems that a roundball was "goodenuf" when this pic was taken,so what's the diference between then and now has the game got toughe.r the man is a total contradiction.
bernie

sharps4590 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 03, 2006, 04:00:09 AM »

dodd....that has been pointed out to him and he won't address that issue. I'd have to agree with your observation.

Vic

jlbeebe · « **Reply #2 on:** November 03, 2006, 04:11:44 AM »

I see nothing wrong with using a patched round ball. My dad and I tried them in our rifles at one time but found we got better accuracy with the maxi balls we molded ourselves. I believe a round ball when used within the effective range is a solid performer. If we had gotten good accuracy out of them we would have used them more. I suspect our rifles had too much twist for them.

Evil Dog · « **Reply #3 on:** November 03, 2006, 04:37:39 AM »

54 caliber with a 1 in 72" twist...... I think I will stay with round ball.

roundball · « **Reply #4 on:** November 03, 2006, 12:42:47 PM »

It appears his positions have flip flopped for years and years...the only conclusion is that he was on a different company's payroll when that photo was taken...and you're right, even most advocates of high performance muzzleloaders keep their distance from letting it be known they're a fan of his.

He boasts there are a few million high performance inlnes and the majority of those owners are members of his high performance muzzleloader club...friend of mine joined just to see what was what...he was member # 151.

Smokepole cowboy · « **Reply #5 on:** November 03, 2006, 01:55:37 PM »

Follow the money.

dodd3 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 03, 2006, 04:17:47 PM »

hey round ball i read that post he must be bad a math's as well lol 151 makes two milion.i dont shoot a lot of round ball as where i go hunting here in west australia it's to easy to start a bush fire. but i do shoot them in the winter and like you i find big wild goats drop on the spot with a round ball with the hart lung shot.i must and that i got a lot of good info from his muzzle loaders guid 1985. but it seems that the$$$$ is more important to him than conviction.to me tradition is what muzzle loading is all about, thats the real deal. bernie

KW · « **Reply #7 on:** November 03, 2006, 09:06:46 PM »

Momma always said that a picture was worth a thousand words. Although she did forget to mention the 151 was worth 2 million

Busta · « **Reply #8 on:** November 04, 2006, 05:34:43 AM »

Bernie,

I understand and respect your opinion, but I don't think you totally understand the magnitude of what is going on here in the States. You do know that Toby is around 30 years older than he is in that picture, don't you? What might have been the most efficient choice in muzzleloading back then, isn't even close today. To compare projectiles of the 70's to projectiles today, would be like comparing a computer from tha 70's to one of today. To be fair, he did say "one well-placed shot". If it had hit the bear in the shoulder, you probably wouldn't have ever seen that picture.

Guys,

Not taking any sides here, but you guys do know that picture was probably taken sometime in the 1970's (30 to 35 years ago)? Toby was a young buck in that pic. I personaly think the roundball is a fine projectile within its limits, and bear are usually shot under 50 yards (most under 25 yards). Back in the 1970's, there were not many projectile choices for the muzzleloader and roundballs were the norm with a few conicals. What might have been the best choice then, certainly has changed in the last 30 years of muzzleloading, like it or not. Is the roundball still the best choice 30 years later? To some that follow the tradition, maybe? But certainly everyone here understands that there are more choices in projectiles, powders, ignitions and rifles than there were 30 years ago. Just wanted you guys to understand that in the last 30 years there have been more changes in muzzleloading than any other shooting sport, bar none. Like it or not, that is the way this shooting/hunting sport is going, and it doesn't appear to be losing any momentum.

I want everyone to know, I support the tradition of someones choice to hunt with the round ball, but I also support someones choice to hunt with a conical or even the saboted bullet as long as it is legal where they choose to do so. I have muzzleloaders that shoot round ball, conicals, and saboted bullets. I hunt with whatever I feel like on any particular day, and whatever you use has no bearing on my hunt whatsoever. I think all hunters need to stand together, if we don't we are playing right into the hands of the ANTI's.

Instead of this fighting amongst ourselves, find a young man or lady that is interested in hunting, and has nobody in their life to take them hunting. Be a mentor to carry on the tradition of hunting, that is where the future of our hunting is. The baby boomers are reaching retirement, and we are losing thousands of hunters every year. Sorry to say, but the younger generation is not filling in the ranks. Do you think that the voters down the road 20 years or less are going to give a darn about hunting if we don't get our youth out there hunting? Seems that we have more proposals about hunting on the ballot all the time, and voters will be the demise of our hunting heratige. I don't care what you use, whether it be roundball, conical, or saboted bullet, but get our young people out there hunting. If we don't, it won't matter what you used to be able to hunt with, when you can no longer hunt because the younger generation just don't understand.

jlbeebe · « **Reply #9 on:** November 05, 2006, 06:39:44 AM »

Quote from: Busta on November 04, 2006, 05:34:43 AM

Bernie,

I understand and respect your opinion, but I don't think you totally understand the magnitude of what is going on here in the States. You do know that Toby is around 30 years older than he is in that picture, don't you? What might have been the most efficient choice in muzzleloading back then, isn't even close today. To compare projectiles of the 70's to projectiles today, would be like comparing a computer from tha 70's to one of today. To be fair, he did say "one well-placed shot". If it had hit the bear in the shoulder, you probably wouldn't have ever seen that picture.

Guys,

Not taking any sides here, but you guys do know that picture was probably taken sometime in the 1970's (30 to 35 years ago)? Toby was a young buck in that pic. I personaly think the roundball is a fine projectile within its limits, and bear are usually shot under 50 yards (most under 25 yards). Back in the 1970's, there were not many projectile choices for the muzzleloader and roundballs were the norm with a few conicals. What might have been the best choice then, certainly has changed in the last 30 years of muzzleloading, like it or not. Is the roundball still the best choice 30 years later? To some that follow the tradition, maybe? But certainly everyone here understands that there are more choices in projectiles, powders, ignitions and rifles than there were 30 years ago. Just wanted you guys to understand that in the last 30 years there have been more changes in muzzleloading than any other shooting sport, bar none. Like it or not, that is the way this shooting/hunting sport is going, and it doesn't appear to be losing any momentum.

I want everyone to know, I support the tradition of someones choice to hunt with the round ball, but I also support someones choice to hunt with a conical or even the saboted bullet as long as it is legal where they choose to do so. I have muzzleloaders that shoot round ball, conicals, and saboted bullets. I hunt with whatever I feel like on any particular day, and whatever you use has no bearing on my hunt whatsoever. I think all hunters need to stand together, if we don't we are playing right into the hands of the ANTI's.

Instead of this fighting amongst ourselves, find a young man or lady that is interested in hunting, and has nobody in their life to take them hunting. Be a mentor to carry on the tradition of hunting, that is where the future of our hunting is. The baby boomers are reaching retirement, and we are losing thousands of hunters every year. Sorry to say, but the younger generation is not filling in the ranks. Do you think that the voters down the road 20 years or less are going to give a darn about hunting if we don't get our youth out there hunting? Seems that we have more proposals about hunting on the ballot all the time, and voters will be the demise of our hunting heratige. I don't care what you use, whether it be roundball, conical, or saboted bullet, but get our young people out there hunting. If we don't, it won't matter what you used to be able to hunt with, when you can no longer hunt because the younger generation just don't understand.

Well said. Unfortunately there are some who don't want unity in the hunting world. They want things to go back to the way it was 30 years ago. I remember those days and even some of these people were bickering amongst themselves. "I shoot a flinter you shoot caplock and maxiball. That's not the way to do it because it's not my way". These people now have inlines to complain about.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #10 on:** November 05, 2006, 07:26:00 AM »

Quote from: jlbeebe on November 05, 2006, 06:39:44 AM

Well said. Unfortunately there are some who don't want unity in the hunting world. They want things to go back to the way it was 30 years ago. I remember those days and even some of these people were bickering amongst themselves. "I shoot a flinter you shoot caplock and maxiball. That's not the way to do it because it's not my way". These people now have inlines to complain about.

There's one guy on another forum and he's a "traditionalist". Maybe Busta Knows who I'm talking about. But anyway this old tired argument was going on there and he told an Inline hunter that he would stand with anti's before he would stand with inline hunters. These guys are accusing TB of starting a war. Heck go to some of the trad muzzleloading forums and you'll see that. The problem is that the war has been going on for years, primarily on message boards such as this. The poster I mentioned above said that earlier this year or last year. Heck there's another guy who claims to be traditional and he uses all the modern gear except for his gun which is a flintlock of modern manufacture. There's another so called trad on another board who uses a stainless steel/plastic stocked flintlock. I've argued against many a so called traditional hunter on many forums. It really does no good and even I know that. I've always believed there is no such thing as traditional unless you use period equipment and dress. Anything less is hypocrisy.

It's as out of place as a flintlock hunter with his laser rangefinder or carbon suit. But by their argumnents that is still traditional.

CROWHOP · « **Reply #11 on:** November 05, 2006, 07:30:00 AM »

Unity is fine,but I would still like to keep my choice of projectile,firearm and powder my choice.Rounballs have worked for years and Ill use them as long as I have that choice.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #12 on:** November 05, 2006, 07:43:33 AM »

Quote from: CROWHOP on November 05, 2006, 07:30:00 AM

Unity is fine,but I would still like to keep my choice of projectile,firearm and powder my choice.

That's all anybody should want. Unfotunately there is a segment that thinks that if they CHOOSE to shoot a flintlock with a roundball that everyone should be REQUIRED to use it also.

Quote

Rounballs have worked for years and Ill use them as long as I have that choice.

I'd fight for that choice too. I've been known to shoot them, although not on game since I like a little more punch. Although I do plan on using them in a .40 on small game whenever I get that barrel. Too much on the wishlist and not enough money to get everything I would like to get.

jlbeebe · « **Reply #13 on:** November 05, 2006, 08:01:42 AM »

Quote from: CROWHOP on November 05, 2006, 07:30:00 AM

Unity is fine,but I would still like to keep my choice of projectile,firearm and powder my choice.Rounballs have worked for years and Ill use them as long as I have that choice.

I agree completely. You should have your choice. The next guy should have his also, even if it is not the same choice.

CROWHOP · « **Reply #14 on:** November 05, 2006, 10:55:32 AM »

I dont care what people use.I just would hate to see roundballs bumped out because of this Toby guy.I played with the thought of using conicals till I decided on roundballs.

jlbeebe · « **Reply #15 on:** November 05, 2006, 11:34:58 AM »

Quote from: CROWHOP on November 05, 2006, 10:55:32 AM

I dont care what people use.I just would hate to see roundballs bumped out because of this Toby guy.I played with the thought of using conicals till I decided on roundballs.

I would hate to see roundballs bumped as well. I don't currently own a rifle that shoots them well but someday I might end up with one.

PeashooterJoe · « **Reply #16 on:** November 05, 2006, 02:55:11 PM »

The more population grows the more the roundball I think will be used, look at the states that went to shotgun only.
I had Inline and it shoot roundballs better that Sabots after much frustration on accuracy issues. The Minie was better than the sabot once again. It was said earlier that each barrel has its preference, well this one didn't like the plastic sabots peiod. I Sold it and went back to Flint and Percussion. There really wasn't an advantage for me, the Max distance is still 75 -80 yards shot. I still cast both, cut my patches shoot my muzzleloaders both rifled and smoothbore. I have the utter most confidence that when I pull the trigger it is hitting whatever target I am shooting at.
The roundball worked 200 years ago and read where one winter one person killed 200 deer with the roundball. I don't see Sam Fadala jumping on that wagon, he seems to think that the roundball had more KO potential, I would agree on my experiences as a hunter.
Education is the key to fight this type propaganda at what ever level. Most of the people just want an extended season and maybe put 3 shoots in a target and waala I am a muzzleloader. One of the guys in my club saw me clean mine, said that it took him 30 minutes to break his down to clean. He went out and bought the only available sidelock a bobcat. I give him the other stuff and educated him on cleaning,shooting, loading etc. He is now a convert, I keep him in balls and patches.He wants a custom muzzleloader now. He had to rethink the inline shooting thing because nobody showed him there was another option. We have another convert to the darkside, because someone took the time to show him the ins and outs.

jlbeebe · « **Reply #17 on:** November 05, 2006, 11:10:38 PM »

Quote from: PeashooterJoe on November 05, 2006, 02:55:11 PM

We have another convert to the darkside, because someone took the time to show him the ins and outs.

Funny, when I'm on the inline forum I never hear any of them criticize traditional rifles.

PeashooterJoe · « **Reply #18 on:** November 06, 2006, 01:05:38 PM »

I'm critizing the industry!! Let the buyer beware

I am for helping anybody getting into the sport,but make sure that you respect the animal enough to make a clean kill.I spent 2 months trying to get the inline I had to get acceptable accuracy. It was supposely top of the line, 150 yard shots,yadah yadah. After all said and done it was not easier to clean, didn't have accuracy and did not like powder pellets. What I'm try to get at is that there is no education other than TV hype. All I see is sell, sell, and you are on your on. I've shot competion with rifle, pistol, blackpowder and Smokeless, built my own rifles, etc. I shoot on the average about 800 shots sometimes more, sometimes less I
know what the rifle or revolver I am shooting is capable of. I try different powder, sizes, weights etc. I want the best accuracy possible be it ball or conical. When all said and done a dang good shooter and reliable muzleloader.
The average Guy is not going to get educated by the industry other than take it out of the box and shoot it. Will read the instructions when all else fails. He may shoot it 5 times and try to figure out how to clean it or I've seen reload it for hunting tommorow. The next day can't figure out why it didn't shoot it and rusty and loaded. At the price of Sabots, pellets, primers. He really cant afford to shoot it to much, and I don't blame him. If he was educated he would know that he could use powder in a can, cast his own minnies and find out just how good his inline was. Bottom line is that the industry don't want him educated cause if would cut them out of sales pellets and Sabots.

jlbeebe · « **Reply #19 on:** November 06, 2006, 04:52:57 PM »

Quote from: PeashooterJoe on November 06, 2006, 01:05:38 PM

I'm critizing the industry!! Let the buyer beware
I am for helping anybody getting into the sport,but make sure that you respect the animal enough to make a clean kill.I spent 2 months trying to get the inline I had to get acceptable accuracy. It was supposely top of the line, 150 yard shots,yadah yadah. After all said and done it was not easier to clean, didn't have accuracy and did not like powder pellets. What I'm try to get at is that there is no education other than TV hype. All I see is sell, sell, and you are on your on. I've shot competion with rifle, pistol, blackpowder and Smokeless, built my own rifles, etc. I shoot on the average about 800 shots sometimes more, sometimes less I
know what the rifle or revolver I am shooting is capable of. I try different powder, sizes, weights etc. I want the best accuracy possible be it ball or conical. When all said and done a dang good shooter and reliable muzleloader.
The average Guy is not going to get educated by the industry other than take it out of the box and shoot it. Will read the instructions when all else fails. He may shoot it 5 times and try to figure out how to clean it or I've seen reload it for hunting tommorow. The next day can't figure out why it didn't shoot it and rusty and loaded. At the price of Sabots, pellets, primers. He really cant afford to shoot it to much, and I don't blame him. If he was educated he would know that he could use powder in a can, cast his own minnies and find out just how good his inline was. Bottom line is that the industry don't want him educated cause if would cut them out of sales pellets and Sabots.

Both of my knight rifles came with a video and sabots. The video explained the proper use and cleaning of these rifles very well. I followed the directions on loading and got excellent results. I am very happy with the quality of customer service I get with knight. If you have a problem just call customer service and they will talk you through anything you are having trouble with. Including working up an accurate load. I have not owned any other brand of inline so I can't say how the other companies handle customer service issues but I can't believe they wouldn't be willing to give advice on the use of thier products. I don't use pellets as they are not as versatile as loose powder and cost twice as much. Some people like them. Fine with me.

dodd3 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 07, 2006, 12:32:37 AM »

busta said Bernie,

I understand and respect your opinion, but I don't think you totally understand the magnitude of what is going on here in the States. You do know that Toby is around 30 years older than he is in that picture, don't you? What might have been the most efficient choice in muzzleloading back then, isn't even close today. To compare projectiles of the 70's to projectiles today, would be like comparing a computer from tha 70's to one of today. To be fair, he did say "one well-placed shot". If it had hit the bear in the shoulder, you probably wouldn't have ever seen that picture.
busta i was pointing out that he used and allso wrote in the 1985 book that the pic came from that a round ball was a very afective killer at 75 yards .now to day he is saying that round balls should be outlawed that is a huge contradiction .i am not have ing a go at inlines or the guys that use them. i like you think that all shooters should stick together to stop the antie gun lobby, all i was showing was the mas of contradiction in this man who i might add has given me some very enjoyable reading over the years
bernie

ThunderStick · « **Reply #21 on:** November 30, 2006, 12:05:36 PM »

It seems to me that there is an artificial market in the US for "muzzle loaders" built to "fit the laws" instead of add a bit of nistalgia to the hunt. If you want to shoot and in line, even the Savage case less rifle, be my guest. I just hate that the debate has come to the us vs them on hunting. I personaly have killed more deer with a PRB .50 than any other gun I own. I have total trust in my gun, my abilities, and my shooting skills for my Hawken style rifle. I hunt totally differently depending on the harvesting tool of choice. To each his own, but I will tell ya, I have the 17 hm2 for squrrils and also a .32 side lock shooting PRB and black powder. It just adds to the hunt for me.

Snowshoe · « **Reply #22 on:** November 30, 2006, 12:56:27 PM »

I could care less what the others use. I use a side hammer and round balls, and have shot many Deer with it. You can't blame the new people getting into our sport for going with the inline. They are cheaper, far more available, and they are what the industry pushes. Where I hunt there is not many hunters so all are welcome, as long as they obay the law.

Slamfire · « **Reply #23 on:** November 30, 2006, 07:13:51 PM »

I'm not gonna worry about a site with 151 members bein' able to outlaw roundballs.

AndyHass · « **Reply #24 on:** December 02, 2006, 09:47:18 AM »

I think most shooters, and even gov't officials (!!!) are smart enough not to outlaw the RB. It's a perfectly fine projectile when used within its limitations, and has probably still killed more game animals than saboted projectiles.

Education solves problems no matter what projectile you use. Sabots and pellets are not to blame. Traditional equipment requires skill to master, and so does modern.

I shoot all types of MLs but I don't think I'd ask TB for advice. Suggesting RBs should be outlawed leaves him no credibility.

oldsmokeyjeff · « **Reply #25 on:** December 13, 2006, 11:51:49 AM »

I think is's just something to argue about. It's a moot point. If the rifle is shot within it's accuracy range and the projectile penetrates to the vitals the animal is dead. Round ball hits the vitals, dead animal. Maxi hits the vitals, dead animal. Sabot hits the vitals, dead animal. Nosler partition hits the vitals, same result. Its all a piece of lead. Same for the bowhunting scene...it's still a pointed stick.
"Can't we all just get along?" LOL
We all know this and some opinions are best left ignored
. Why give it more attention than it deserves. Jest my opinion! Jeff

Swany · « **Reply #26 on:** December 14, 2006, 08:57:15 AM »

One thing I will say on the round ball vs sabot thing, the round ball is the original sabot. When encasing a pistol bullet in tupperware what's the point? Of all the things modern technology has come up with why plastic? So many options to choose from, they can make pellets in place of loose powder, but they can't make something to hold a conical bullet, I say BS. I revamped a roundball mold for a .54 cal into a conical and used cloth patching for it. No wiping between shots, and it was accurate. Made that mold in 1985, it still works today. Far as someone pulling a John Kerry (for it, against it) that seems to be the trend when you have too much money, and plenty of sponsers. One thing I always say is why don't the in line manufacturers make a big bore .62 cal or larger with a 1-144 twist .005 lands, now put 250 gns of powder down that with a .610 patched round ball and see if it will equal or exceed a modern in line with pistol bullets and 150gns of pellets. Far as shooting dangerous game with a round ball, if I'm after large bear, I'll take the round ball shooter, you know a .72 Zepher. We've all expiermented with hard cast round balls, and they do penetrate even on large bone, simple solution if you are a traditionalist is to take enough gun. Don't know about you but my 12ga with a round ball at 50yds is capable of taking anything I shoot with it. Try this, take a H&R 12 or 20 with rifled bbl, now make a steel cartridge that will take 150gns of pellets and a shotshell primer. Get the right mold and muzzle load it with a patched round ball. Makes a nice big bore on the cheap. Caution this combo will hurt at both ends.

captchee · « **Reply #27 on:** December 14, 2006, 10:31:16 AM »

think he is a joke do ya , i would agree . That however doesn’t stop those that support him of for that mater think like him from working on the round ball .
right now the idaho game commission is considering removing the round ball from big game hunting in all caliber up to 58 . the 58 would only be aloud for deer size game and would not meet the minimum requirements for elk .
here is one of the questions on the lates poll.

Quote

Muzzleloader Caliber and Projectiles - Currently, Idaho allows the use of 45 caliber muzzleloaders for hunting deer, pronghorn, and mountain lion; and the use of 50 caliber for elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goat, or black bear. Additionally, Idaho restricts muzzleloader projectiles to no less than .428 caliber. Some hunters are concerned that 45 caliber round balls are inadequate for big game. Some hunters are also concerned that light weight bullets designed for pistols do not ensure adequate penetration on big game. Some hunters have requested that current rules be changed to eliminate the use of 45 caliber muzzleloaders and to include a minimum projectile weight to ensure adequate projectiles are used. Research confirms that heavy, well-constructed bullets perform better in penetration tests.

The Commission will consider the following change:
projectiles must be a minimum of 49 caliber or have a minimum weight of 240 grains for hunting deer, pronghorn, or mountain lion; and
projectiles must be a minimum of 49 caliber or have a minimum weight of 300 grains for hunting elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goat, or black bear

keep thinking he is and idiot , forget about him , dont stand up and speak out , call it arguing or what ever you like .
but the next time someone states ,; why cant we all just get along or be couse we are arguing its giving the antis a footing ,,,,, im going to say we can get along ,as long as folks quit trying to change the laws to accept every ne fangled gadget on the market .
we wouldn’t be divided if folks would stop the bla bla information that brought this proposal before the game commissions and start accepting the laws for what they were designed for not some toby bridges loud mouth payback

PeashooterJoe · « **Reply #28 on:** December 15, 2006, 01:42:40 PM »

Amen to that brother, you said it all.

flintman · « **Reply #29 on:** December 16, 2006, 02:14:27 PM »

I don't like inlines,but it is not my place to try to make others use what I want them to use.But they'd best not try to tell me what to use either,unless they can back it up in the Game laws books.
Seems to me that the scope on the gun is what bothers me more,but as has been mentioned and we can all agree,we OWE it to the game animal to make a quick,humane kill.
Sabots?I wonder how people get the guns to keep shooting accurately,but only for about 2 seconds,because I know my patched balls will do the job just fine.