44 mag loads/bullets

[rimfire]

Question...

I have a FA M83 in 44 magnum.  Recoil with some of the real heavy loads are all I care to handle so I am not looking to go up in caliber.  I want to understand what the 44 is capable of in this gun with heavier jacketed bullets. 

I have some of the 300 Gr XTP and loaded to the bottom cannelure with 21+ grains of H110 they shoot very accurately.  For hogs, big black bear and Elk I hear various comments about using cast bullets versus jacketed.  I am sure the cast will work and I already have a load pushing a 300 grain CP WFNGC at 1400 fps +, but I want to know about its capabilities with jacketed bullets also. 

Anyone with any experience pushing that XTP at Elk?  How about the 270GR GoldDot or the heavier Nosler Partitions.  Honestly I prefer to shoot jacketed bullets if I can to avoid leading and get some bullet expansion if it can still penetrate.  Sor of like the performance I hear about the 260 grain bonded core bullets in the 454. 

Would love to hear any bullet/load recommendations. 

...and one last question...I have a box of the Beartooth 250 gr WFNGC bllets.  If the 260 bonded core bullets at elevated velocities can penetrate from a 454, why wouldn't these 250 grain cast bullets penetrate even more.  I am curious why these lighter hard cast bullets wouldn't be a good choice in the 44 on big game such as Elk?  Do you really ned a 300 grain bullet in a WFNGC configuration to penetrate on bigger stuff up to Elk?

Sorry for the long post.

Barry

[safetysheriff]

i recommend you read www.garrettcartridges.com  which should take you to randy garrett's website with reviews, etc. re: his hardcast bullets and what they'll do.   no, i don't recommend you buy his brand necessarily.......though you may want to.   i simply believe that he understands what it takes to get an animal put down with the .44 magnum and proper bullet design.

at www.findarticles.com you can enter jd jones for your 'search' and read what he says about jacketed vs cast bullets in some of his articles.

then i'd make a decision re: bullet choice.   for me, never having hunted elk yet, but having researched it a fair amount, i'd go with a cast bullet that is of proper hardness for the velocity it will achieve.  that will help to reduce the leading.   i would use w-296, h-110, wc-820(bulk) or one of the other relevant powders.   

let us know how it works out,

ss'

[jason280]

I second what was said above.  I have always liked heavy hardcast bullets, as they ensure good positive penetration.  There is nothing wrong with jacketed expanding bullets on some of the lighter game animals, but with larger game, you need a little more with the .44 Magnum.  You have enough diameter as it is with a .429" hole, so the only thing you really need is a bullet that is going to go through the vitals without question. 

Randy Garrett has taken this concept to the extreme with some of his loads, and offers some true heavyweight loads in various calibers.  Please understand these loads are not for the cheap minded or the faint of heart.  Recoil is stout, and a box of 50 rounds will set you back better than $50.  You can reload for much cheaper, as harcast bullets in almost any imaginable weight are available through a variety of vendors. Personally, I would stick with 250-300gr bullets over H110, as it has always been a solid performer.

S-Sheriff,

How much luck have you had with WC-820?  I picked up a pound through a friend of mine, and I have read that you should use AA#9 data.  I have also read that some lots have been closer to #2400, and heard still that H110 data is the one to follow.  What has your experience been?  I would like to load some 240gr hardcast bullets over this powder to use in my 7.5" SBH and 10" Contender, and would like to reach around 1200 fps (nothing too hot). 

[jpsmith1]

I used wc-820 in .45 colt, .357 mag and .44 mag loads.  USE MAGNUM PRIMERS!!  I was told to load it like you would 2400 by someone who didn't know that they had recently changed 2400 data to use standard primers.  The first round fired seemed a bit weak, but the second one only 'popped'  This was a .357 mag in a 4" gun.  Not a rocket, but not a .22, which was the kind of recoil that I got.  Opened the cylinder and a pile of powder poured out and the bullet was jammed in the forcing cone.

A little research turned up the H110 connection and I started using it as h110 reduced about 2-3%.  Oce I switched to magnum primers, I burned the rest of 2# without incident.  I wish I could get more, but the guy I got it from seems to have stopped selling it and relocated his shop.  Unfortunately, there is no one else locally who handles milsurp powders.

[Ak.Hiker]

If you really like jacketed bullets in your 44 magnum you may want to try the Sierra 300 grain. It is a very tough bullet that should give you plenty of penetration on big game. Sierra lists a hunting load with 21.6 grains of 296 with this bullet.

[Lloyd Smale]

my recomendation is to go with a 300 grain cast and back your velocity off to about 1200 fps. That load will shoot through about anything. I know your using a FA guns so i wont preach to much but if your getting 1400 fps with a 300 out of a 44 mag either your chronograph needs calibratiing or your pushing some very high pressures. The extra 200 fps your getting will do absolutly nothing for you in the field except make your barrel rise a little more Wc820 is a real good powder. I was smart enough to stock up on it and have about 50 lbs in reserve. Its basicaly generic packed aa9 so treat it that way and youll have no problem. Some lots vary in burning rate but so do the comercial packaged lots of aa9.

[Darrell Davis]

Morn'in Rimfire,

One the main reasons hard cast bullets earned the reputation for relyability and penatration was the jacketed bullets to which they WERE compared.

Back not so long ago, the jacketed jacketed bullets were little more then a thin copper cup with a soft lead core plopped in the middle.

You haven't already, you should look up the story about Larry Kelly, from Mag-n-port, and the griz which tried to take up residents in the same cabin occupied by Larry and his guide.

The story pretty well points out the reason "jacketed" bullets had an earned reputation for coming apart and/or lack of penitration.

If the jacketed bullets of those days were made hard/strong enough to prevent them from coming apart, then they failed to expand at all but the highest velocities and/or closest impact ranges.

However, in at this point in history, things have changed as far as the quality available in jacketed bullets.

Does this mean cast bullets are no longer a good direction to go?  By no means, and in fact they still retain a large following, myself included.

But on the other hand providing you are willing to do your research and  pay the bucks, there are now handgun bullets worthy of relyable use for hunting.

Personally, I use a 310gr - gas checked - LBT bullet ahead of 19grs of AA#9. These bullets are cast of wheel weights and quenched in cold water directly from the mold.  Until I have a chance to prove differently, that will remain the "go to" bullet for my work loads.

Keep em coming!

[safetysheriff]

S-Sheriff,

How much luck have you had with WC-820?  I picked up a pound through a friend of mine, and I have read that you should use AA#9 data.  I have also read that some lots have been closer to #2400, and heard still that H110 data is the one to follow.  What has your experience been? 

jason'

i only work with Ruger handguns right now.   i load wc-820 rather heavy, therefore.

i like to start out with a load a little heavier than they suggest as a starting load on the label for the wc-820 i buy.   why?   because some was labelled ...... h-110 minus 13% ...... for a starting load, and some was labelled ...... h-110 minus 10% ...... for a starter load.   i never paid attention to how it compares with AA-9 because it works so well.  i then work up my loads 'til i get something accurate without flattening primers or ruining the revolver.   ( the 7 1/2" Super BlackHawk is the stuff that dreams are made of, in my opinion !)

i also load rather heavy in the Ruger's so that i'm achieving a good load density to help with accuracy by way of consistent ignition.   

my favorite load is 21 gr's of '820' with remington brass using win' large pistol primers and the 265 gr' rnfp that is made by National Bullet Company.   it is very accurate out of the Ruger's i've worked with.

i buy the wc-820 from Pat's Reloading at the gun shows here in n.e. Ohio.   i also buy the national bullet product at their location in Lake county here in n.e. Ohio.    you can get these products delivered to you by UPS if you can't find them locally.

good hunting to you. 

ss'   

ps:  i wonder how this National Bullet hardcast would work on an elk.   it's got a fair amount of antimony ( 6 or 7 %) in it, which can sometimes be a problem when hitting large bones on the bigger animals.   but......it is the bullet that i'd try if i had an elk hunt in front of me right now.   

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree that they have improved alot but for game bigger then black bear id still stick with cast. Ive seen even hawk bullets fail in penetration testing. As a matter of fact ive never seen where any jacketed bullet did as well as a cast bullet even cast out of straight wheelweight.  Guys will go with the argument that jacketed bullets kill quicker on thin skinned game but a shot to the boileroom with a cast bullet is a dead animal and i dont care if it takes one leap and piles up or two or three leaps. Ive never seen an instance where a cast bullet placed in the right spot didnt kill an animal and i have seen jacketed bullets that failed to penetrate on even shoulder shots on bear and pigs.

Morn'in Rimfire,

One the main reasons hard cast bullets earned the reputation for relyability and penatration was the jacketed bullets to which they WERE compared.

Back not so long ago, the jacketed jacketed bullets were little more then a thin copper cup with a soft lead core plopped in the middle.

You haven't already, you should look up the story about Larry Kelly, from Mag-n-port, and the griz which tried to take up residents in the same cabin occupied by Larry and his guide.

The story pretty well points out the reason "jacketed" bullets had an earned reputation for coming apart and/or lack of penitration.

If the jacketed bullets of those days were made hard/strong enough to prevent them from coming apart, then they failed to expand at all but the highest velocities and/or closest impact ranges.

However, in at this point in history, things have changed as far as the quality available in jacketed bullets.

Does this mean cast bullets are no longer a good direction to go?  By no means, and in fact they still retain a large following, myself included.

But on the other hand providing you are willing to do your research and  pay the bucks, there are now handgun bullets worthy of relyable use for hunting.

Personally, I use a 310gr - gas checked - LBT bullet ahead of 19grs of AA#9. These bullets are cast of wheel weights and quenched in cold water directly from the mold.  Until I have a chance to prove differently, that will remain the "go to" bullet for my work loads.

Keep em coming!

[Mikey]

rimfire - Darrel Davis is correct!  The reason hardcast slugs have earned the reputation they have is because they were compared to jacketed bullets. 

And Lloyd Smale's recommendation is right on the money.  Back off that load a bit and your cast slug will still do the job for you. 

My favorite 44 mag hunting load (compared to just kickin' some cans around) is a 295/300 gn cast swc over 19.5 gns of H110.  I last used that load on a 400 lb Russian Boar and it clocked right through his skull.  I would have trusted a jacketed slug to deform and skid off, which is why I use cast.  JMHO.  Mikey.

[jpsmith1]

safetysheriff, do Pat's come down into the youngstown area gun shows?  I'm planning on hitting the mext one and, as mentioned, haven't been able to lay my hands on any 820 in about 4 years.

[safetysheriff]

go to www.patsreloading.com and click on "prices" to get their two different phone numbers (depending upon what time of day you call).   i do not go to the youngstown shows so i can't help you there.   i buy from them at the medina fairgrounds show.   

incidentally:   MILLER ROD AND GUN on Cleveland Poland Road (i believe) in youngstown has some of the best selection and pricing to ever hit n.e. Ohio.   they do not go to the shows anymore, but they do sell to vendors for the shows and to customers who walk in to their store.  that place was amazing when i went there several years ago.   they'd sold me a Ruger at a show that was a 'gift' almost!

those are the best helps i can give you for what goes on in Youngstown.

let us know how you do,

ss'