Author Topic: more life for the .500 (Read 2328 times)

corbanzo · « **on:** November 10, 2006, 03:42:19 PM »

Looks like the .460 isnt going to eclipse the .500 in the hunting world with velocity... new Hornady 300 grn evolution .500 SW velocity of 2050 out of the barrel, with 100 more grns of lead than the .460 200 grn going 2200, pretty impressive. Also gives it about 650ftlbs more energy.

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=e70939a07d9403a27bf9b07a1d65ba2b&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=533311d2802d09a30a4480ced578f5e5

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #1 on:** November 10, 2006, 07:19:58 PM »

It'll for sure kill'm deader!

jro45 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 11, 2006, 03:12:42 AM »

Thats Great! I would like to see a bullet for the 500 S&W in the 250 gr. But 300 is pretty close.

corbanzo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 12, 2006, 06:49:11 AM »

i was a little bored yesterday so i decided to brush up on the trigonometry. found out that to make a bullet with the same dimensions of that of the .460 for the .500 the load would have to be about 28% greater. Meaning that the .500 would be pushing a 256 grn bullet same as the 200 from the .460, wonder what type of velocities we could get out of that?

corbanzo · « **Reply #4 on:** November 13, 2006, 06:39:43 AM »

That's it, I'm buying a .500, not a .460. Stars and stripes ammo sells a 275grn barnes pbx at 2140fps in the 500SW. I'm sold.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 13, 2006, 07:13:10 AM »

Quote from: corbanzo on November 13, 2006, 06:39:43 AM

That's it, I'm buying a .500, not a .460. Stars and stripes ammo sells a 275grn barnes pbx at 2140fps in the 500SW. I'm sold.

That's why I have two of each. I like the 460 and 500 Mags. But if it came down to choosing just one, the 460 would be my choice. But I am glad I don't have to make that choice.

jro45 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 14, 2006, 03:14:21 AM »

The 500 S&W can do it both ways. It's a good revolver for back-up in big bear country or it can go deer hunting. Thats how I see it!

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 14, 2006, 05:38:57 AM »

Quote from: jro45 on November 14, 2006, 03:14:21 AM

The 500 S&W can do it both ways. It's a good revolver for back-up in big bear country or it can go deer hunting. Thats how I see it!

So can the 460.

corbanzo · « **Reply #8 on:** November 14, 2006, 08:12:11 AM »

So can the .454 and the .44, lets not start this discussion again.. and again.. and again..

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 14, 2006, 12:11:20 PM »

Quote from: corbanzo on November 14, 2006, 08:12:11 AM

So can the .454 and the .44, lets not start this discussion again.. and again.. and again..

So exactly what is your point??

I own both of the guns you listed and know from actual fact there is not much difference between the 460 and 500 Mag. There are advantages and disadvantages in both. If I want to broaden the discussion here I will. It is an open forum.

I think actual experience has more merit than numbers on paper.

corbanzo · « **Reply #10 on:** November 14, 2006, 04:52:54 PM »

Well the .460 was introduced as the "lightning bolt" of the big boys, when in reality, it really isnt that special when it comes to speed. Both the .500 and the .454 can be loaded just as fast. I have to admit that I was taken with it's abilities, good marketing S&W, but then upon realizing the other calibers can do just the same.. maybe even better, it loses some of its steam.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 15, 2006, 01:56:27 AM »

Quote from: corbanzo on November 14, 2006, 04:52:54 PM

Well the .460 was introduced as the "lightning bolt" of the big boys, when in reality, it really isnt that special when it comes to speed. Both the .500 and the .454 can be loaded just as fast. I have to admit that I was taken with it's abilities, good marketing S&W, but then upon realizing the other calibers can do just the same.. maybe even better, it loses some of its steam.

Wrong, as I stated in several posts, where can a 454 Casull match the 460 Mag. The 460 Mag has a larger case capacity than the 454 Casull, over 10 gr's. of powder. Come on, do some home work before you post your opinion without facts to back up your clamed.

Just how does a 454 Casull or 500 Mag do the speed of the 460 Mag, Please let me know, please with facts not just your opinion. I am not taking anything away from the 454 Casull or 500 Mag, but a 460 they are not.

The 500 Mag is better suited for big bullets, which what it was designed for. If you are a reloader you would know it takes more powder to get the speed with a lighter bullet. Therefor case capacity plays a major roll in developing speed. Also if you have a light weight bullet in a 50 caliber it is not going to have very good BC which would affect accuracy tremendously.

If you can't understand this concept, I don't think you or I have any further need to discuss this.

jro45 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 15, 2006, 03:06:23 AM »

The 460 is a better gun for deer hunting and the 454 can kill deer also. The 500 can kill deer and would be a better choise gun for the big bear protection.

corbanzo · « **Reply #13 on:** November 15, 2006, 07:02:14 AM »

I understand the concept perfectly. Here is where it comes out though. The hottest load I have seen for the .460 was pushing a bullet at 2330fps, if there are any much hotter than that, I would like to hear about them. I have seen the .454 loaded to push 2215fps, and the .500 to push 2150fps. I'm talking about pure speed in what I am saying, and what I am saying is that 115fps really isnt that much of a difference. Is it more? yes. Will the .454 be able to match the .460 if loaded to the same ratios? no. but the difference isn't there for the .460 to blow away the other cartridges.

Prebanpaul · « **Reply #14 on:** November 15, 2006, 09:05:11 AM »

Wrong, as I stated in several posts, where can a 454 Casull match the 460 Mag. The 460 Mag has a larger case capacity than the 454 Casull, over 10 gr's. of powder. Come on, do some home work before you post your opinion without facts to back up your clamed.

JUST CURIOUS AS TO HOW MANY COMPRESSED 460 LOADS ARE OUT THERE?

?? DOES CASE CAPASITY REALLY MEAN ANY THING, NO!!!!!!!!!! POWDER TYPE AND GRAINS ARE FACTORS NOT THE CASE SIZE. THAT IS NOT AN OPINION ITS A FACT

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 15, 2006, 01:09:34 PM »

Quote from: Prebanpaul on November 15, 2006, 09:05:11 AM

Wrong, as I stated in several posts, where can a 454 Casull match the 460 Mag. The 460 Mag has a larger case capacity than the 454 Casull, over 10 gr's. of powder. Come on, do some home work before you post your opinion without facts to back up your clamed.

JUST CURIOUS AS TO HOW MANY COMPRESSED 460 LOADS ARE OUT THERE??? DOES CASE CAPASITY REALLY MEAN ANY THING, NO!!!!!!!!!! POWDER TYPE AND GRAINS ARE FACTORS NOT THE CASE SIZE. THAT IS NOT AN OPINION ITS A FACT

No need to type in caps, I can read just fine.

For your information, there are a few compressed loads for the 460 Mag. But compressing a load does not have anything to do with case capacity, but type of powder. How may 460 Mag rounds have you loaded

. Case capacity means everything. Without case size, powder type and grains mean nothing. You are not going to need a lot of case capacity for tight group powder, but be careful you don't blow up your gun trying to prove a point.

Please go back and do some research. Why do you think cases are made with more case capacity. Let me guess, to increase velocity with the correct powder charge which usually is more than a lower case capacity case. Even though we are talking straight wall cartridges, I will give you an example you might understand. A 300 Win Mag with a 150 gr. bullet powder charge of 79.5 gr of RL 22 goes 3261 fps now a 300 Dakota with a 150 gr. bullet with 84.0 gr. of RL 22 goes 3489 fps. over 200 fps difference and what is the difference in the cases? Case capacity. FACT!

corbanzo · « **Reply #16 on:** November 15, 2006, 03:57:42 PM »

I am in agreement that case capacity makes a difference. I just need to start loading so I can outspeed the .460 with the .500.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 16, 2006, 01:42:53 AM »

Quote from: corbanzo on November 15, 2006, 03:57:42 PM

I am in agreement that case capacity makes a difference. I just need to start loading so I can outspeed the .460 with the .500.

Like I said before, I don't take anything away from the 500 Mag, hell I own 2 of them. Barnes makes a 275 gr. bullet for the 500 Mag. Here is a max load for it LIL'GUN 44.0 2137 50,800 PSI. It is about 200 fps slower than the 460 Mag. I would not want to push past the max listed load to try to make the 500 Mag shoot faster than the 460 mag just to prove a point.

So the new Hornady 300 gr evolution .500 SW velocity of 2050 is not as fast as the 275 gr. Barnes bullets. All of the numbers listed are in perfect factory conditions. You will find that they will be a lot different in the real world.

My whole point here, sure the 500 Mag may have more case capacity, but once you try to get a 50 cal bullet under 275 gr. you will start sacrificing BC which will affect accuracy greatly. Also with the larger case capacity, pushing a bullet over the recommended max load is not the smartest thing to do just to prove a point.

Get the 500 Mag and enjoy it, but please be safe.

Prebanpaul · « **Reply #18 on:** November 16, 2006, 06:12:14 PM »

holllyyyy cow everyone stop, wow redhawk you made a good point. Let me see here where your mistake was made. hmmmmmmmmm I guess the people at winchester and remington need to go to your school of math. You see the bigger case holds more powder right. Means faster bullet. So everyone should throw out all those millions of dollars they spent on developing those short mag cartridges. ohhhhh the used the same powder, no i dont think so. change the powder and you change the speed example that you may understand. This comes from the Hogdon reloading manual. 275 grain xpb 44 grains of h4227 2047 fps then you have 44 grains of lilgun and you get 2137 fps. Hmmmmm same case capacity, change powders you get diffrent speed. Again case capacity only matters if you are doing a compressed load and you are not spiking you pressure.. that is a fact. powder means everything. I can push a 275 grn bullet at 2137fps, I think I will take that over the 200 grain 460. I will give you a geometry question, see if you can figure it out at 250yrds which one flies flatter and by how much you would be suprised.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 17, 2006, 01:44:53 AM »

Quote from: Prebanpaul on November 16, 2006, 06:12:14 PM

holllyyyy cow everyone stop, wow redhawk you made a good point. Let me see here where your mistake was made. hmmmmmmmmm I guess the people at winchester and remington need to go to your school of math. You see the bigger case holds more powder right. Means faster bullet. So everyone should throw out all those millions of dollars they spent on developing those short mag cartridges. ohhhhh the used the same powder, no i dont think so. change the powder and you change the speed example that you may understand. This comes from the Hogdon reloading manual. 275 grain xpb 44 grains of h4227 2047 fps then you have 44 grains of lilgun and you get 2137 fps. Hmmmmm same case capacity, change powders you get diffrent speed. Again case capacity only matters if you are doing a compressed load and you are not spiking you pressure.. that is a fact. powder means everything. I can push a 275 grn bullet at 2137fps, I think I will take that over the 200 grain 460. I will give you a geometry question, see if you can figure it out at 250yrds which one flies flatter and by how much you would be suprised.

Prebanpaul, I understand completely about different powder's that perform differently. I have been reloading for 30 years and understand it completely.
Now lets talk short mags, LOOK AT THE CASE, SHORT AND FAT WHY FAT, MORE CASE CAPASITY. duh..... Case design also plays a role in powder selection.
The reason for a short Mag, to make a short action. NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND???
It is obvious you don't understand, case capacity has nothing to do with compressed loads. It is the type of powder you choose to use.
Why are people stuck on compressed loads?

But in reality accuracy matters more than speed.

But it is obvious that you know everything, so there is no more need for me to try to explain it any further, Have a nice day.

Prebanpaul · « **Reply #20 on:** November 17, 2006, 04:26:07 PM »

REDHAWK,

FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN RELOADING FOR 30YRS YOU SEEM TO BE LIKE THE KID IN 12TH GRADE WITH A 8TH GRADE EDUCATION. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THE SHORT MAGS HOLD LESS POWDER THAN THE MAG THAT IS MATCHES UP TO. I E 300 SHORT MAG HOLDS LESS POWDER THAT THE REGULAR 300 WIN MAG. CHECK THE HOGODON RELOADING MANUAL ON THIS. THIS IS NOT AN OPINION THIS IS A FACT, CHECK THE HOGODON RELOADING MANUAL I DID. NEXT I DONT LIKE COMPRESSED LOADS, I WAS MAKING A POINT THAT CASE CAPACITY MEANS NOTHING UNLESS YOU FILLER UP. SO AGIAN I ASK JUST HOW MANY COMPRESSED LOADS DO YOU LOAD TO SHOOT IN YOUR 460. AND DO YOU SHOOT THAT LOAD CONSISTANTLY.I WOULD SAY NOT. AND WHAT LOADS DO YOU HAVE THAT SHOOT FASTER THAT ARE NOT COMPRESSED. IF THEIR OUT THE THERE (THE LOADS THAT IS) IT JUST MAKES MY POINT EVEN MORE. CASE CAPACITY MEANS JUST A LITTLE. VERY LITTLE. HERE IS WHAT I WILL TELL YOU, YOU HAVE MORE RELOADING EXPRIRENCE THAN I AM OLD. THE DIFFRENCE IN BETWEEN ME AND YOU IS BEFORE I SPEAK I GO AND GET SEVERAL MANUALS AND USE THE 10YRS LIMITED EXPRENCE THAT I HAVE TO BACK UP MY CLAIMS. BY THE WAY THOSE MANUALS THEY HAVE ABOUT 50 TIMES EXPIRENCE THAT YOU, ME, AND WHO EVER READS THIS COMBINED WILL EVER HAVE. OHHH YEAH AND TO YOUR STATMENT THAT I KNOW EVERYTHING, NOPE BUT MY DEGREE TAUGHT ME TO LOOK UP WHAT YOU DONT KNOW. I BELIEVE THE WORD I AM LOOKING FOR IS EDUCATION, AND YES I AM VERY VERY EDUCATED. IF YOU NEED ANY TIPS ON RELOADING LET ME KNOW.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 17, 2006, 05:00:01 PM »

I replied but removed my post. It is not even worth continuing this conversation with you.

If you would like to make this personal my e-mail address is Surfish7@alo.com

corbanzo · « **Reply #22 on:** November 18, 2006, 05:32:37 AM »

You are refering to short mags "matching up" to their long mags, the thing is that... they don't. The short mag was made for a shorter bolt and a lighter gun, nothing more nothing less. You make the case smaller, you get less power.

300RSAUM (R) 180 SP 2960fps 3501ftlbs
300RUM (F) 180 TBBC 3250fps 4220ftlbs

300WSM (W) 180 PP 3010fps 3621ftlbs
300Win mag (W) 180 SP 3070fps 3768ftlbs

Winchester makes the .270WSM, but not a .270 mag, so lets compare them to the .270 mag.

270WBY MAG (B) 150 NOS 3245fps 3507ftlbs
270WSM (F) 150 SP 3160fps 3325ftlbs

How about we look at some of the newest and fastest magnums and short magnums out there?

Lazzeroni .308 Patriot(short mag) 150grn 3363fps 3767ftlbs
Lazzeroni .308 Warbird(long mag) 150grn 3775fps 4747ftlbs

so far the short mags are losing pretty well... There is one loading (only one) where a 150grn out of the WSM goes 20fps faster than a 150grn win mag, but I would say for a round designed however many many years ago, the Win mag is still beating its little brother pretty well.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 18, 2006, 10:24:46 AM »

Quote from: corbanzo on November 18, 2006, 05:32:37 AM

You are refering to short mags "matching up" to their long mags, the thing is that... they don't. The short mag was made for a shorter bolt and a lighter gun, nothing more nothing less. You make the case smaller, you get less power.

300RSAUM (R) 180 SP 2960fps 3501ftlbs
300RUM (F) 180 TBBC 3250fps 4220ftlbs

300WSM (W) 180 PP 3010fps 3621ftlbs
300Win mag (W) 180 SP 3070fps 3768ftlbs

Winchester makes the .270WSM, but not a .270 mag, so lets compare them to the .270 mag.

270WBY MAG (B) 150 NOS 3245fps 3507ftlbs
270WSM (F) 150 SP 3160fps 3325ftlbs

How about we look at some of the newest and fastest magnums and short magnums out there?

Lazzeroni .308 Patriot(short mag) 150grn 3363fps 3767ftlbs
Lazzeroni .308 Warbird(long mag) 150grn 3775fps 4747ftlbs

so far the short mags are losing pretty well... There is one loading (only one) where a 150grn out of the WSM goes 20fps faster than a 150grn win mag, but I would say for a round designed however many many years ago, the Win mag is still beating its little brother pretty well.

corbanzo, I agree with you 100%. I have never had the urge to buy a short mag. I was just responding to Prebanpaul and using the short mag as an example. My example was that the reason the short mag has high speed was because of case capacity. The 300 Win mag has more case capacity than the 300 WSM. So I don't know if you post was directed to me or Prebanpaul.

Prebanpaul · « **Reply #24 on:** November 18, 2006, 06:36:33 PM »

WOW NOW LETS USE THE SAME BULLET AND THE SAME POWDER AND WHAT DO YOU GET THE SHORT MAG OTHER THAN THE LAZZERONI ARE FASTER. BY THE WAY THEY USE DIFFRENT POWDERS. SO LETS COMPARE APPLES TO APPLES.

BY THE WAY I LOVE THE LAZZERONI, MY 308 WARBIRD COOKS THEM OUT THERE. YEAHHHHHH

jro45 · « **Reply #25 on:** November 19, 2006, 04:07:10 AM »

Seems a fact that more powder means more FPS with same weight bullet but then you have pressure limits. Each gun has a limit as to how much pressure it can handle. SAMI set those limits. Its not wise to go over the limit set for any gun.
I don't think WBY has any limits. But WBY doesn't make the S&W 500.

corbanzo · « **Reply #26 on:** November 20, 2006, 09:33:28 AM »

Yeah, I was respoding to preban. Im glad you brought up pressure limits jro45.

Say we take a pressure limit of 50,000 psi for a cartridge, short and long magnum., we load each to the max.

Long mag case capacity is say 1 cubic inch
Short mag case is .85 cubic inch

Long mag puts out 50,000 in-lbs force
Short mag only puts out 42,500 in-lbs force

pretty simple math.

Prebanpaul · « **Reply #27 on:** November 20, 2006, 11:30:13 AM »

YOUR MATH LACKS TWO THINGS ----- RATE IN WHICH POWDER BURNS AND THE CASE NECK ANGLE. BY THE WAY FOR GEOMETRY PEOPLE THE 500 SMITH WITH A 275 GRN BULLET ACTUALLY DROPS LESS THAN THE 200 GRN 460 AT 300YRDS. SIMLER TO THE 338 WIN MAG OUT PERFORMING THE 300 AT 600YRDS PLUS. WITH THE LOADS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY POSTED.

PAUL

Keith L · « **Reply #28 on:** November 20, 2006, 12:42:03 PM »

Got a shift key on your computer Paul? When you do all your typing in caps it makes it look like you are yelling, and is a violation of normal net conduct. Please use the shift.

Thanks!

corbanzo · « **Reply #29 on:** November 22, 2006, 01:52:02 PM »

We're talking about revolvers, there is no case neck angle. The only long range rifle that I'm coming up on next are the RUM, and the 300RUM outperforms the 338RUM fairly well in trajectory, which is why I'm buying a 300 instead of a .338. If you take the same case neck angle and a bigger casing... and sorry about my math. I was wrong, I should be talking about square inches and not cubic inches, but the result is still the same.