Changing the .357mag

[Old Griz]

I understand that the original .357 loads were hotter than the ones sold today. When did they (who is "they"?) make the change, and why?

Always curious.

[Flash]

Don't know about the originals but Supervel made some smokin' ammo for the 357 back in the 70's. They were kind of before their time, I thought. The liability issue stands out for me when I hear about anything slowing down in the ammo department.

[Glanceblamm]

I really Doan no but figure that getting a 158gr moving along @ 1350fps is still  respectable in any circle. Used to have some Willey Clap data for the 180gr bullets set up for 100yd ranges but lost it two computers ago.

[Graybeard]

When I'm not sure, can't really remember. The change was made when SAAMI lowered the chamber pressure standard for the round.

Before that the standard velocity of 158 grain ammo was 1550 fps. I can recall buying boxes of Browning branded ammo which I suspect was made by Norma dirt cheap at a hardware store locally and shooting it in an old S&W model 19 which was new at the time. Man was that stuff accurate and hot. Loved it. I won my first ever trophy at a local shooting match with it.

[Tom C.]

In addition to being a little hotter than current ammo, it was also taken from 8 3/8" barrels. 5" and 6" barrels, with factory barrel-cylinder gaps, cooled that off by something on the order of 150 fps, but it was still fairly warm. I suspect current powders can reach similar performance levels with a little less pressure. If Graybeard had used a steady diet of that stuff, he might have found out why the Model 19 was not considered durable enough and what lead to the 586/686.

[Mikey]

Tom C:  Actually, the Model 19s preferred the heavier 357 loads that originally used slower burning powders to produce the higher velocites in longer pistol barrels.  It wasn't until ammo makers began using faster burning powders under lighter weight bullets that the Model 19s, and other name brands, developed a scoring or 'flame cutting' on the bottom of the topstrap that worried some but was of no structural concern.  The Model 19 also developed 'spacer' problems as a result of the flame cutting and would need maintenance after a steady diet of the high speed light weight magnum loads.  The 586 was designed to deal with those problems (continued use of lighter weight bullets over charges of baster burning powders).  I hain't yet met the Model 19 or the Model 27/28 that didn't love the old loads.  I used a 4" Model 19 to shoot Metallic Silhouette one year.  I used 200 gn loads over either 2400 or 4227 powder, until I began using Winchester powder and that just made it even better.  I know we (me and a buddy) put a couple of thousand rounds through that gun that year and she was no worse for the wear (wasn't any......)  Mikey.

[corbanzo]

Getting that higher pressure is why some manufacturers make their chambers for the .357 maximum cartridge.  Still the same dimensions as the normal .357mag, just loaded hotter than the rounds you find now a days.  Maybe we can start a trend and get a .357mag +p 

[Graybeard]

If Graybeard had used a steady diet of that stuff, he might have found out why the Model 19 was not considered durable enough and what lead to the 586/686.

I did shoot a steady diet of it in that Model 19 and it did just fine with it. I eventually went to a 586 and then 686 once they started making them more for the 8-3/8" barrels over the 6" of my 19 really. But the original Model 19 ate many thousands of such rounds.

[DWTim]

Anyone know the original SAAMI maximum average for the .357? I would estimate that a 158 grainer @ 1,500 fps would have to be in the area of 36,000-37,000 psi (like the 44 RM) with a powder like 2400.

Man, those must've been fun to shoot. Most of the indoor shooting ranges in my area would probably ban them, though.

[safetysheriff]

NRS'S Handloading; 1986 revision; page 211 text in the rifle section says 42,500 cup for handguns.   it says the most satisfactory working pressure is below 40,000 cup......but the max' product average pressure is established at 46,000 cup.

the .357 is one of the all-time bellringers, of course; and actually even more so in a single-action revolver like the Ruger BlackHawk.   it's cylinder will allow todays .357 mag's to still be loaded to top pressures.   see paco kelly's www.leverguns.com and click on "articles" to see what is said about the use of the .357 in various weapons by jim taylor in ".357 magnums in my life".

take care,

ss'   

[Mikey]

Winchester loaded their ammo in the range of 35K cup (200 gn bullet over 12.4 gn of 296) to 42.5K cup (158 gn swc over 6.7 of 231 for 1275'/sec, yet the same slug over 14.5gn  of 296 went to 1480'/sec at 38K cup).  Mikey.

[PaulS]

The same reason why loads are being reduced all over the map.
no, its no the lawyers who are doing it, its the gun manufacturers. They build guns that won't hold together when maximum loads are used constantly so the pressures are dropped to accomodate the weakest gun made. It is backward engineering - and because those guns sell, the makers have reason to believe that what they are doing is alright. So, in reality we are doing it to ourselves.

[chazgin]

Tom C:  Actually, the Model 19s preferred the heavier 357 loads that originally used slower burning powders to produce the higher velocites in longer pistol barrels.  It wasn't until ammo makers began using faster burning powders under lighter weight bullets that the Model 19s, and other name brands, developed a scoring or 'flame cutting' on the bottom of the topstrap that worried some but was of no structural concern.  The Model 19 also developed 'spacer' problems as a result of the flame cutting and would need maintenance after a steady diet of the high speed light weight magnum loads.  The 586 was designed to deal with those problems (continued use of lighter weight bullets over charges of baster burning powders).  I hain't yet met the Model 19 or the Model 27/28 that didn't love the old loads.  I used a 4" Model 19 to shoot Metallic Silhouette one year.  I used 200 gn loads over either 2400 or 4227 powder, until I began using Winchester powder and that just made it even better.  I know we (me and a buddy) put a couple of thousand rounds through that gun that year and she was no worse for the wear (wasn't any......)  Mikey.

I had a M27 8 3/8" that I stupidly flame cut with light bullets 110 and 90 gr. It shot great even after it flame cut with heavy bullet silhoutte leads. 180's and 200 cast. I shot the revolver until it lost timing and started spitting badly. I was going to have it worked but traded it on a DW 357 Supermag. I like the DW better than the M27, it is more accurate and seems a lot beefier than the M27, however it certainly is not a carry gun with the long full lug barrel. Shooting heavy 357 Mag loads it feels like shooting 38 wadcutters.