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Offline dave hall

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45-70 bullet ?
« on: November 15, 2006, 10:21:34 AM »
What do you guys think is the best performing bullet out of the 45-70 for Whitetail,maybe Black bear but I'm not sure yet? I'm looking to reload for next year for my Handi.The range I shoot is between 40 and 200 yds.I'm going to use Hornady's new round this year.Dave.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2006, 10:40:39 AM »
My personal favorite is the Speer 400gr SP.
I load it to about 2000 fps and its done everything I could ask of it. But Its NOT my handi load.

 That is a 405 Rem factory bullet re-loaded to about 1600 fps. Works excellent as well.

CW
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Offline dave hall

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2006, 11:01:50 AM »
I was looking at the Barnes 400 S.S.S.P. It has a B.C. of .389.CW is that top load for a #1.
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Offline cpj

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2006, 11:16:20 AM »
405 grain lead bullets have killed alot of bufflao and other critters over the past 100 years.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2006, 11:19:07 AM »
I shoot it in my Marlin, my Browning Hi-wall. I am sure it would be fine in the handi as well. Its just that my 45-70 handi is synthetic stocked and LITE. A 400gr bullet @ 2000 fps REALLY thumps your shoulder!!! I do not consider myself recoil shy, but.... A bit less velocity is hand in hand with less recoil. So the lighter constructed remington bullet @ 1600 works very well for that gun. :-[

I sold my #1 a couple years back, couldnt get it to shoot. To answer your question, YES it would also be a good load for that gun.

 CW
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Offline dave hall

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2006, 12:26:30 PM »
I just called my friend to see what he used last year out of his Handi.His load was 300 gr. Speer at 2100 fps./2938 fpe with something like 60grs of powder thats 37.65 fp of recoil in a 7 pound Handi. 8)

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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2006, 12:31:14 PM »
Dave, now ya know why I have lam stocks w/Limbsaver recoil pad and lead or a MRR in the stock of my .45-70 Handi when I shoot 300gr NPPs at 2400+fps!!! :o

Tim
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2006, 01:46:33 PM »
Do you have a chart/table to figure recoil? 

I would be VERY interested to see just how much MY LOAD actually would recoil from the handi!! The synthetic 45-70 handi must be lighter than 7lbs....SURE feels it any way!! I would "guesstamate" at least half a pound lighter than that....

 I'll tell you this, I would MUCH rather shoot my 375H&H Mag or my 12ga USH w/ buckhammers than my synthetic handi and the heavy 2000fps 400gr speers!!!

CW
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2006, 02:16:33 PM »
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2006, 02:24:37 PM »
If you want to run some numbers, try the BTB Piledriver at 1800fps, actual bullet weight is 539gr, 52.5gr powder weight and whatever weight rifle you want, even a 10lb rifle has over 46ft/lbs recoil!! ;D

Tim

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21
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Offline dave hall

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2006, 02:30:15 PM »
Thats what I use point blank,but I have the older version.I'll have to try this new one.I would like to know what the recoil is for the new Hornady loads.But I don't know what the grains of powder are.CW how many grains are in that load.I'll tell you what it is.

2000fps--400 grs--grains of powder--6.5 lbs. Handi
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2006, 02:49:52 PM »
It's gonna be in the 50gr-60gr range depending on the powder used.

Tim
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Offline MSP Ret

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2006, 02:56:50 PM »
Do not overlook thr old tried and true Hornady 350 grain jacketed bullet at .458, either the RN or FP. They are VERY accurate out of a 45-70 and are more than enough for whitetail and black bear....<><.... :)
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Offline dave hall

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2006, 03:26:58 PM »
Quick is that for the Hornady load or CW's load.Dave.               
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2006, 03:40:09 PM »
That's Hodgdon's data for the Marlin or Ruger loads for the 400gr Speer, dunno what CW's load is, but if you use 55gr for the recoil computation, you should have a close guestimate as to what the recoil is. Here's a bunch of actual 400gr Speer data, plus a lot more.

Tim

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570.htm
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Offline Stan in SC

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2006, 04:34:59 PM »
Hotter...faster...bigger.You can load them big and hot and fast but you will get good accuracy with a mild load.I use the 300Gr. Remington HP bullet over 40 Gr. of Rel7.


Stan
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Offline Woodchopper

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2006, 08:33:18 PM »
TIM,YOU NEVER TOLD ME THOSE PILE DRIVERS WAS THAT BAD.I ALLREADY ORDERED ALL THE GOODIES(MUCH TO THE DISMAY OF THE WIFE)LOOKS LIKE IM IN FOR A REAL TREAT! LOL
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Offline dave hall

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2006, 02:09:07 AM »
400gr at 2000 in a 6.5 rifle with 55 gr's is 54.62 recoil energy
                                                          23.26 recoil velocity

Quick,that is a good info page.Thanks Dave.
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Offline Joel

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2006, 03:09:21 AM »
From 40 to 200 yds is quite the spread.  Back when I thought I needed a 200 yard load(just in case) I used either the Hornady or Speer 300 gr JHP's at 2200 fps.  Actually I loaded up to 2400 fps, but the recoil was too dangerous.   I had to hold the rifle exactly right, or I risked wearing my scope. The 2200 fps load was fine, but tended to act like a 270 and blow up a lot of good meat at the close ranges,<100 yds, that I've killed all 28 of my deer with the handi with.  I did shoot one at around 125 yds. My current load is the Speer 400 gr FN at what my friend's chrony said was 1750 fps(from both our Handi's) with 44 gr of Re7.  I just looked over at the load data at Real Guns, and they say 1950fps for 44.5 gr of the same. Don't think 1/2 gr would add that.  So, I have no idea what the real velocity is now, but deer fall down with regularity.  I guess that will have to do ;)
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2006, 05:57:15 AM »
Thank you Joel, I was hoping you would offer your experience with 300gr bullets. I've only shot paper with mine, so have no on game performance experience, but I knew that you had problems with close range performance with loads that would work at 200yds.

My only recommendation is for better bullets for the long work that will also work on the close stuff without blowing up. The Rem 300gr doesn't fit that catagory from all reports at MO. One bullet that has an exellent reputation and still shoots "flat" if the .45-70 can be considered in that context, is the 300gr Nosler Protected Point Partition. It's operating velocity for terminal performance is 800fps to 2400fps+ according to Nosler. But as Joel mentioned, the recoil is viscious.

I think a better option with more tolerable recoil would be a 350gr bullet at around 2000fps, recoil is tolerable, yet it will still reach out to 200yds with no hold over. I haven't shot anything at 200yds except the PMC +P ammo which has since been discontinued. Sighted in 4" high at 100yds, it was 6" low at 200yds, which would be good for deer or elk as it had right at 1500lbs energy at 200yds from PMC's data. I never chrono'd it, but their trajectory info was right on.

Tim
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Offline dave hall

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2006, 06:46:40 AM »
Thanks for the info guys.I'm glad I asked this question.Dave. I'm sure theres more to come.Makes for good reading,too. ;)
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Offline Dave Weiss

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2006, 09:49:08 AM »
I've been shooting 350gr Hornady JFN with 48.5gr of H4198 out of my Handi and BC. I'm very happy with the accuracy and the recoil isn't intolerable.
I'll be looking for a Grizz next spring, just need to figure out which rifle to carry.

Dave
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2006, 06:24:54 PM »


Oh...heck.... :D

My 2400fps Nosler load ain't that bad with a Limbsaver pad Foam cheek piece and 1-1/2lbs of lead in the stock...and one I've been shooting and recommending for years :D :D :D :D :D

I've shot a lot worse than this load...and is what I load for in my XLR as well...It's one of the most accurate loads I've ever shot out of a Marlin or NEF...and it doesn't damage too much meat eithe even up close...unless you smack straight thru the shoulder...then even a cast bullet will bloodshot everything around it...One darn nice thing about it...It's as accurate at 200 yards as the new LE Hornady ammo...and even more accurate at 300 yards...Yea I know that plastic tip is supposed to improve it...but shoot it in the wind and you'll see it's not all that it' s cracked up to be over 100 yards...atleast in the 45-70...and that 400 fps head start gives it a real advantage...I've shot both out to 400 yards...and I'll take the Nosler over it...

Mac
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Offline andrewtheelder38

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2006, 12:34:38 PM »
...For general purpose loads, I find that either one of the Remington green box standard loads of either 300-grain bullet hollow points, and the 405 grain flat points both give me very good accuracy in my old handi......so much so that the only three bullets I load are remington 300-grain hollo points, speer 405 grain flat points/or remington whichever is cheaper that month and I also load some of the lyman lrhp 500 grain schmitzers.....will kill about anything on the planet schlepping along at moderate to low velocity....they don't expand just drive right through everything in the way....
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2006, 12:47:32 PM »
Quote from: andrewtheelder38 on November 21, 2006, 12:34:38 PM
...For general purpose loads, I find that either one of the Remington green box standard loads of either 300-grain bullet hollow points, and the 405 grain flat points both give me very good accuracy in my old handi......

Quote from: dave hall on November 15, 2006, 10:21:34 AM
What do you guys think is the best performing bullet out of the 45-70 for Whitetail,maybe Black bear but I'm not sure yet? I'm looking to reload for next year for my Handi.The range I shoot is between 40 and 200 yds.I'm going to use Hornady's new round this year.Dave.


Kind of a moot point since Dave asked for 200yd loads, I don't see the 405gr Rem factory ammo as being a 200yd load, even the 300gr is marginal, out of a 22" barrel the trajectory isn't going to be as good as the 24" shown in Rem chart.

Tim

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R4570L*R4570G
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: 45-70 bullet ?
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2006, 04:01:01 PM »
Quote from: Mac11700 on November 20, 2006, 06:24:54 PM


Oh...heck.... :D

My 2400fps Nosler load ain't that bad with a Limbsaver pad Foam cheek piece and 1-1/2lbs of lead in the stock...and one I've been shooting and recommending for years :D :D :D :D :D

I've shot a lot worse than this load...and is what I load for in my XLR as well...It's one of the most accurate loads I've ever shot out of a Marlin or NEF...and it doesn't damage too much meat eithe even up close...unless you smack straight thru the shoulder...then even a cast bullet will bloodshot everything around it...One darn nice thing about it...It's as accurate at 200 yards as the new LE Hornady ammo...and even more accurate at 300 yards...Yea I know that plastic tip is supposed to improve it...but shoot it in the wind and you'll see it's not all that it' s cracked up to be over 100 yards...atleast in the 45-70...and that 400 fps head start gives it a real advantage...I've shot both out to 400 yards...and I'll take the Nosler over it...

Mac

Yepp!!!! Mac intoduced this load to me first hand, it is devasting to say the least! Mac loaded some of these for a short hunt we did. I shot a Buck as he was heading up a mountain. Bullet caught the edge of his shoulder & exited his rib cage on the other side. I don't know if it was the combination of his rear legs buckling(if they did) plus he was going sharply uphill, but he went straight over backwards & then flipped again before stopping, & then nothing. It was quite a show & as dramatic as any of the Whitetail kills I have seen, & that is quite a few.

Yea, it's still a bad boy at 200 yards & more.
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