Author Topic: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?  (Read 2785 times)

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Offline Questor

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Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« on: November 17, 2006, 01:21:42 AM »
I know Ackley "improved" any and every cartridge he could lay hands on. But were any of them really an improvement? Have any endured in some form?
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Offline Siskiyou

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2006, 04:09:20 AM »
Good question, I have always been interested in the .270 Ackley Improved but have never made the investment.  I have a brother who suffers from Wildcat fever. so when he built a .270 AI I was rather excited.  But he has not provided any good data.  He shot his Crony with a .45 auto and I am not about to loan him my Chrony.  He thinks he is pushing a 150 gr. PP around 3000 fps. 

But the rifle is locked up and he has gone on to the 6.5-284.  I am sure it will be put away for another project rifle.

He spends a lot of time developing loads, and shooting his wildcats, then he is on to a new project.  He told me the other night that he was looking for a used rifle to create a new Wildcat.  I am sure with Christmas coming his gunsmith is waiting for him to walk in the door.  At times I think he intentionaly put the round into the Chrony. ::)
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Offline spinafish

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2006, 06:28:29 AM »
I know the 30-30 AI is a vast improvement of the standard thurty-thurty..especially in a Contender pistol.
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Offline goodconcretecolor

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2006, 06:58:06 AM »
Most AI cartridges only sharpen the shoulder and reduce the taper of the factory cartridge. This results in only 1-2% increase in internal case capacity. In 30-06 based cartridges(25-06, 280, 270 etc.) this wil result in less than 50 fps increase at the same pressure level. The reduced taper can mask many signs of high pressure so many of the claims of sigmificant velocity increases come from higher pressures. The 30-06 can tolerate these pressure increases better than most of its offspring which operate at higher pressurein their original factory form. I would be leary of a 270 AI.
The 30-30 being rimmed, can have the shoulder pushed forward and still be able to headspace properly. I am not familiar with the 30-30 AI but it sounds like it would be similar in shoulder configuration to the 7-30 waters. If this is true, the 30-30 would benefit much more from the "AI treatment" than any rimmless case which headspaces on the shoulder.
If you want to experiment with AI cartridges, becareful and have fun.

Offline skb2706

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2006, 08:40:29 AM »
Ask anyone who has a 22-250AI....but prior had a standard 22-250.

No question

The AI version will outrun it all day. Virtually eliminates case trimming. Shoots excellent if you got stuck with standard ammo.

Improvement means different things to different people..........but in my little shell those things add up to improvement.

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2006, 09:27:33 AM »
Ackley made his claim to fame with the 257Roberts.  Often, however, folks feel that hanging "AI" on a cartridge gives it mystical powers that defy physics.  The basic rule of thumb is 4 to 1: for every 4% increase in powder capacity, you gain 1% increase in velocity. 
I have shot 22-250's for a whole lot of years.  I have never tried to motor them at the top end however.  I like to make more than one Pdog shooting trip per barrel.  I would guess that someone that would go to the trouble of having a chamber reamed out is more interested in absolute performance than say me and so would load closer to the top end.  That could account for some of the dramatic differences in velocities. 

Offline jh45gun

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2006, 01:39:49 PM »
If it is not broke why fix it? Most of the cartridges are standard cartridges  stand on their own merits and are good cartridges. Of course I never felt the need for rifle magnum cartridges either with the exception of the 22 mag.  I doubt a deer knows the difference between being shot with a standard 30/30 and an improved cartridge. Dead is Dead and either will do that job.
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Hairtrigger

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2006, 03:03:19 PM »
In most cases you get a couple hunderd fps better at best.
For example a 22-250ai pretty much equals a 220 Swift.
I have a Competitor in 22-250ai, the real benifit is it has a 1 in 9 twist which lets me shoot heavier bullets and the ai gives it more velocity.
In most examples another 200fps or so does not work magic

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2006, 03:50:53 PM »
In P.O. Ackley's Vol #1 he has this to say about the 250-3000 imp: "This is one of the best of the so called improved cartridges. It shows a greater percentage of increase in velocity than almost any other."

I haven't noticed where he's said anything that glowing about any other improved cartridge. Of course since this manual was written, we have some new powder's that might make a difference. I suspect that any real difference in most Ackley or other improved cartridges is minimal. I know of two guy's shooting improved 6.5x06's, one an Ackley and one a Gibbs. They get 3000fps with 140gr bullet's, but from 30" barrels. I get a bit over 2900fps from a 25" barrel. I have, with to much pressure, gotton just over 3100fps with the 140gr, standard 6.5x06. From all I understand, the best thing about the Ackley's or any improved cartridge is that they don't streach cases as much, no idea why, and they do have a tendicy to hide pressure. Probally the best thing about them is that they get a bit more out of heavy bullet's.

It does seem to me that most people that go to improved cartridges do so to gain more velocity from some particular cartridge rather than go up in bullet dia with the same bullet. It seem's to me that the easiest way to send a 140gr bullet out at 3000fps is not to improve a 6.5x06 but to get a 280 Rem! At the same time, if you were wanting to shoot a 120gr bullet, I believe the 25 cal would be a better choice than the 28 cal.
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2006, 05:30:46 AM »
Just so, Don.  I read about all the hoops folks jump thru in order to say "my .280 is ALMOST as good as a 7mag" and it just ain't so. To red line a .280 and compare it to store bought ammo for a 7mag isn't real world thinking.
I have some of both and handload for both.  And I like both cartridges but a .280 ain't no 7mag.  If you stoke them both up to their potential with a 160gr bullet (I don't understand why anyone would shoot a lesser bullet from a 7mag) the .280 --AI or otherwise-- can't stay in sight of the 7mag.  But, load a 140gr bullet in a .280 and you have an excellent combination in and of itself.
BTW, with either of them, as I outlined, you don't need a magic bullet (above a NP or Grand Slam) as they will fall into that 2600-2900 velocity window that I find works so well with standard bullets.

Offline eroyd

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2006, 10:57:56 AM »
Sharpening the shoulder on some cartridges not only increases power capacity but also extends case life by slowing brass flow.

Offline Hairtrigger

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2006, 11:16:58 AM »
Sharpening the shoulder on some cartridges not only increases power capacity but also extends case life by slowing brass flow.


Good point

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2006, 03:06:37 PM »
Sharpening the shoulder on some cartridges not only increases power capacity but also extends case life by slowing brass flow.


My guess would be that even if it does decrease drass flow, the primer pocket's are still gonna expand and case life may not increase but decrease. The problem is that it's my understanding that pressure sign's get hidden. High pressure expands primer pocket's! With max loads, I loose more case's to enlarged primer pocket's than anything else. Please don't tell me your going to an improved case and cutting back on power?????
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Hairtrigger

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2006, 03:36:55 PM »
I believe that increasing case capacity lowers pressure allowing more powder to be added. Otherwise the ammount of powder in a 223 would be the same as a 220 swift

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2006, 05:21:47 AM »
Yes, to stay even with a standard case, you would have to add powder to a AI case.  I hadn't thought about that.  If you have to use up some of your 4% (for example) increased powder capacity, does that cut into your 1% increase in velocity????  Hmmmmm ???

Offline Catfish

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2006, 09:55:39 AM »
   I`ve always heard that your increase was 1/2 of the % increase in case volume. That works close for cases that are relitively low for bore size, ie. close to straight walled cases. You mention the .257 AI. The AI will push the liter bullets 200 fps. faster that the parrent case and the heavy bullets at 300 fps faster the the parent case.
   Ackley definately improved the preformance of the cases he blow out. In the case of the .257 R he got an extra 10 to 15 yrds. of point blank range. He did not make a .30-30 shoot like a .300 mag. but he did improve the round.

Offline Rum River

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2006, 12:49:58 PM »
I tried the .30-40 Krag Improved over twenty years ago.
I did NOT do this in a Springfield, but in the #3 Ruger carbine.
Even with that shorter carbine barrel I chronographed 220gr bullets in the 2800 fps range.
As a previous poster related, I think the rimmed cases have an advantage.
Rum River

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Offline gypsyman

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2006, 03:52:35 AM »
I'm in the process of breaking in a new barrel for my Encore. It's a Bullberry barrel in 6mm. A.I.,26'' bull. All I've got to go by, is the reloading manuals, but it looks like most of the top loads will get me 10-13% better FPS. I believe that how the chamber is cut, makes a big difference. Not all reamers are the same, and if your 'smith gets a brand new reamer, the chamber will be a bit bigger than one that has cut a couple of chambers. Plus the brass you end up with would make a difference.
I'm hoping to keep a 100gr. bullet at the 3000fps mark, although, I'll probably use 87-90grs. most of the time. What I'm planning on, is a 'dog gun, for 500yds+. Hoping to get the time for an out west varmint in the next couple of years.- gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline the jigger

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2006, 07:07:56 AM »
i've been shooting a 250/3000 for years. about 6 years ago i got the ackley bug. my 250/3000 with 36gr of RL15 under a 100gr partition chronys 3080fps. the 250ackley with 41gr of RL15 shoots the same bullet at 3325fps(avg. for 5 shots). personally, i think as mr.ackley said in his books you can expect significant "improvement" in the 250/3000. this is the only ackley with which i have had personal experience.
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Offline roper

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2006, 07:44:29 AM »
I've always found by owning and shooting the parent caliber before turning it in an Ackley helps to see the real world improvement.  All the Ackley calibers I shoot case capacity has improved appr 10% velocoity gain is from 10% to 8% so for me it's worth it.  Ackley didn't build his cases around  equal pressure. 

Offline Lead pot

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2006, 11:52:51 AM »
In 1960 I had a .222 with a 1-14 twist that I re chambered to the .22 varminter (.22-250) AI
Like mentioned before case stretching is just about eliminated, but the extra velocity shortened barrel life.
But it was a very good chambering.

Kurt
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Offline Tom W.

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2006, 07:03:09 AM »
I'm waiting for my Ruger #1 to come back from OTT. I had the urge to turn it into a 30/06 A.I.

Anybody can get an over the counter 30/06.... and I like to handload anyway ;)
Tom
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Offline Don Fischer

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2006, 07:49:13 AM »
I'm waiting for my Ruger #1 to come back from OTT. I had the urge to turn it into a 30/06 A.I.

Anybody can get an over the counter 30/06.... and I like to handload anyway ;)

The best reason for getting any improved cartridge. Right on the money!
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2006, 02:23:23 PM »
another big fan of the .250 in both stock and imp. flavors!!!
i've been shooting a 250/3000 for years. about 6 years ago i got the ackley bug. my 250/3000 with 36gr of RL15 under a 100gr partition chronys 3080fps. the 250ackley with 41gr of RL15 shoots the same bullet at 3325fps(avg. for 5 shots). personally, i think as mr.ackley said in his books you can expect significant "improvement" in the 250/3000. this is the only ackley with which i have had personal experience.
blue lives matter

Offline bullcoon

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Re: Did the Ackley Improved cartridges ever improve anything?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2006, 04:01:26 PM »
well l just finnished off another 270-08  AI with a 1000 yard hart barrel and have done some testing,lm only shooting 130 grain noslers out of it and with 49 grains of rl 22 lm well over 3250 fps,l think this is impressive for the size of the cartridge,l have had many AI cartridges over the years and this one is a very efficient one,l am also shooting a 375 hh AI which lm  useing rl 22 and lm close to 3000 fps with 260 grains,so after many years of trial and regret there is some very big gains with certain cartridges,but there is also some with almost nothing and with my 270 winchester AI was one of them,but then some rifles shoot faster and some slower .

Offline iiranger

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How silly...
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2006, 09:09:40 AM »
To begin, this "question" reflects a depth of ignorance that makes the Grand Canyon look like a road side ditch.

No, Mr. Ackley did not "improve" everything he could get his hands on. In fact, in my IGNORANT youth, I asked Mr. A about improving the .308 WCF and he advised against it. Said too little to be gained, if anything. In his writings he did not recommend improving the .30/'06. Only with the heaviest bullets and slowest powders was anything gained and then not much... So the statement begins by smacking of silly ignorance from the beginning. (Today there is a wider selection of "slow powders"??? He retired around 1985.)

For the student who studies... Mr. Ackely was young when the "smokeless era" was still fairly new. Most grand dads still clung to their Winchester lever actions and black powder (loads were available until the Depression/1930s). The 1886 was available in .45/70 Gov. The 71 just came out in .348 WCF!  While Junior was back from the war and lusting for a surplus Springfield '03 bolt action. ($18.00 thru DCM via REA to your door, or was it $18.50. Gun was $12.00 with a real walnut stock. The rest was shipping and handling).  .270 WCF came out in approx. '26 to use the brass ('06) that could be picked up free in many places. Shove it into a die and out pops a .270 that doesn't kick as much... and away went Jack O'Connor on his literary/hunting career (when not teaching college)...

Many affordable cartridges were shaped like funnels. .303 Brit. 7x57 Mauser. .30/40 Krag.  .33 WCF. .25/35 WCF. .38/40 & .44/40. If you read his books/remarks --he did a column in a number of gun magazines for years. Very helpful to the young and ignorant like I was-- he points out that by straightening the body of these cases you can keep more of the powder in the case as it burns and not allow it to be funneled into the barrel to burn there and accellerate barrel wear. One of the reasons for the steeper shoulders was to direct the burning powder granules into the neck of the case and not let them hit the throat... Obviously, the case is replaced/replaceable... throat wear much more permanent.

Yes, then there is the additional capacity. Mr. A was not alone in the "improved" activity. Mr. Epps for one did the .303 in Canada much. Offspring still operate the shop and offer the services. (link fromn 303british.com) You could have the SMLE in a smaller caliber, factory case necked down or improved OR necked up to as much as .338... And with a P14... .303 Canadian Mag rivalled the Weatherby... I believe the Weatherby line was developed in the M17 rifles and based  on much research...

If you buy his books and read... you will see dozens of names. Mashburn. Juenke. Titus. Powley. Barnes.  Howell. Gibbs. Many were more radical than Mr. A. Fred Barnes had a .224 QT (quick twist) that used a 125 grain bullet. Obviously, he made his own bullets. All sought what was not available readily and affordably from the factory. An old, dear friend, retired gunsmith told me that after WW I Remington used the P14/M17 actions (barrelled actions???)  for sporting rifles. Model 30 maybe. Later 720? And finding one in .30/'06 for someone with the money was doable. Finding the .257 Roberts that were listed in the catalogue... He almost never saw or heard of one. Of course, Remington would not think of chambering the .270 Winchester... (ha, ha)...

In the no liability/low liability climate, machine work in a basement permitted many to buy surplus Mausers and turn them into fine sporters and sell them at a profit. FFl's were $2.00. Running a reamer into a 7x57 chamber to "improve it" meant you could rival the .270 (which 'sucked' until slow powders came out after WW II).

Mr. A also wrote of reducing the load on the action with the "improved" chamber. Loads that would "lock up" a Savage 99 could be much exceeded in an improved ?? .250 Savage? .22 Hi-Power? For the woodsman concerned with reliability... and the extra preformance was "frosting on the cake." Claims he fired a 94 Win in .30/30 IMP without the locking lug in the action... no problem.

So the cowboy who could not afford a new .300 Savage could come close with a rechambering of his 94 (or Marlin) in .30/30. Mr. DeHasse writes of all the people who condemned him for "butchering" Winchester single shots into modern cartridges. He points out that at that time, with velvet lined case, you could buy a Winchester single shot in black powder caliber for $15.00. No one wanted them. By rebarreling he put them back to work...

No shortage of whining in the world. And today we have the BR's and the Dashers and the PPCs and the Grendel and the SSKs and ??? ... buy/read Mr. A's books and see how little is new except the names... Unfortunately this is how history has always been and I have given up on the idea that anything will change. "those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them..." luck to us allllllllll....