Author Topic: The religion of peace (Read 2065 times)

nabob · « **Reply #30 on:** November 23, 2006, 05:40:02 AM »

wncchester, radical Muslims use that exact same thinking - that they are simply recognizing us for the evil sons of Satan that we are - to drive their hatred of us.

When you do the same, you leave Christianity behind and join them.

Sure you want them for company?

You make the same mistake powderman does - confusing a refusal to hate them with somehow believing that we shoudn't defend ourselves against the threat they pose. Of course they are a threat. Of course we must defend ourselves. But when you choose to hate them, you choose, by your own free will, to no longer love God.

For a Christian, that's a mighty odd position to take. Just as the Muslims who believe they must kill us have left God, so have you. At that point, talking about God's will is useless, at least for you. You have chosen to leave God behind in favor of hating Muslims, so you have no business discussing what God wills for anyone. You left God behind the minute you decided to dress up your hatred as "recognition."

Recognizing a threat doesn't mean viewing them as "Godless, subhuman scum" or "evil sons of Satan." That type of language is hate speaking, not recognition of a threat.

powderman · « **Reply #31 on:** November 23, 2006, 12:04:50 PM »

WINCHESTER. Well said Sir, I agree.
nabob. You are wrong sir. You have a lot of nerve saying that any of us have left God. The muslims have never known him. What you call hate, I call common sense. What you call hate, I call recognizing an enemy. If it weren't for the pc world Israel would have taken care of business years ago. You refer to us all being brothers, some of us are. We are all brothers in Christ, islam doesn't recognize Jesus, so they are not my brothers. We are all Gods children, some of us choose to follow Christ, others choose, or are tricked into, following satan, they are not my brothers. You are trying to make me out the bad guy, I'm not. The sooner the world sees islam for the cancer it is, the better off we will all be. I hope you had a great day. POWDERMAN.

nabob · « **Reply #32 on:** November 23, 2006, 12:28:54 PM »

Actually, I only need good reading skills to understand you've left God:

1 John says : "If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen."

1 John doesn't say "brother in Christ", it says only "brother".

When you place a limit on your love, you are also directly contravening Matthew 5:43-48:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

How exactly does calling Muslims "Godless subhuman scum" and "evil sons of Satan" fit THAT command from Jesus himself?

So when you say that you are only required to love your brothers in Christ, you directly contravene what Jesus himself told us to do in the Sermon on the Mount.

For me, that suffices to indicate that you've left God behind when you've chosen to hate your enemy. I don't know if you are a good person or a bad person, powderman. I DO know that when you express your hatred or try to quibble about who you have to love, you are no longer acting as a Christian.

Islam is certainly a danger and we need to defend ourselves against it. That is not that same as hating them. You confuse the two and that's where your understanding of Christianity falls short.

jh45gun · « **Reply #33 on:** November 23, 2006, 12:53:48 PM »

Powderman and Sourdough and 30/30 man I agree with you guys. Tell you what Nabob I beleive in God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I also have always had a problem turning the other cheek any one threatens me I tend to get a bit hostile over it. I also feel that even sinners get to heaven or it would be a pretty empty place and our God is forgiving. Takeing one verse out of the Bible to keep bashing a member here pretty absurd. Does not matter if Powderman hates muslums there are plenty of folks on this earth I do not consider my brother and I would bet powderman agrees with that. I got to figure if I do not make the pearly gates it will be for something other than being upset with a muslum who hates me enough to want to kill me.

nabob · « **Reply #34 on:** November 23, 2006, 01:04:05 PM »

You also seem to equate my position with nondefense. That isn't the case, as post after post of mine in this thread shows.

It isn't one verse, friend. It is the entire message of Christianity. It is easy to love people you like. It is difficult to love those that hate you. Jesus said to do it anyway. Christianity is not an easy creed to live by but if someone is going to call himself Christian, he should try to live up to it and not find ways to justify failing.

Yeah, it does matter if you or powderman start deciding who is and who isn't your brother. It matters if you want to call yourself Christian. If you don't want to, then it doesn't matter. If you want to wear the label, walk the walk. It isn't easy. Jesus forgives sinners but only those who repent and want to live the way Jesus told us to. So far, I haven't heard anything in what either you or powderman or 30/30 man or wncchester to indicate that you accept what Jesus said to do in Matthew 5:43-48.

Don't any of you find it hypocritical to condemn the Muslims for their hate of us when some of you are doing the exact same thing?

jh45gun · « **Reply #35 on:** November 23, 2006, 01:54:18 PM »

Well Nabob if you want to get picky about things you take religion out of the arguement it still boils down to the Muzzies have been trying to take over the world since they became a so called civilization. They are still trying to today. It is by no mistake that they are entrenched in every country in the world. For that reason alone we should be on our toes when it comes to dealing with them. Sad thing is it is hard to fight an enemy that has no regard for human life including their own. I do not know about you but last I heard we are in a WAR when in a war it is common to hate the enemy. Since in this war we have seen men women and children blow themselves up it appears to me we have to consider any of them combatants not just the men. Does that mean kill them all no but it does mean that you have to watch all of them carefully for any signs of treachery. These muslums have been warlike and wanting conquest ever since all you have to do is look at history to see that.

30-30man · « **Reply #36 on:** November 23, 2006, 02:29:40 PM »

I never said I hate the people. I hate the religion and everything it stands for. I see it for what it is. Being a Christian is not easy, I think most of us are doing the best we can. I would be careful my friend of pulling specks out of people's eyes when you may have a plank in your own. Jesus said that, I didn't. In short, accept the fact that most of us are flawed and do not live up to the example of Christ including me and everyone on this board. I'll be the first to admit it. I'm a sinner and I'm not perfect. I do think sometimes Americans are too passive and politically correct. That is the only message I'm trying to convey.

powderman · « **Reply #37 on:** November 23, 2006, 02:30:52 PM »

nabob. Jesus also said, he that has no sword, let him sell his cloak and buy one. Since I know of no game ever hunted with a sword I assume that these swords were to be used to defend against those he loved?? Jesus was, and is, the only perfect one. There are 2 types of churches nabob. The first is a meeting place for the saints, probably yours. The second is a hospitol for sinners, I attend that church. Think about it. POWDERMAN.

nabob · « **Reply #38 on:** November 23, 2006, 07:43:15 PM »

powderman, the example of the sword is EXACTLY what I am relying on when I say that self-defense is acceptable. I count at least 5 times in this thread that I've said that.

However, Jesus did NOT say that it was acceptable to hate the people you defend yourself against. Instead, he said the exact opposite.

So how do you call yourself a Christian and do exactly opposite of what Jesus said to do? I'm as big a sinner as the next guy. Yet I at least attempt to live up to what Jesus wants me to do. I certainly do not, when it is pointed out to me that I am acting in direct contravention to Scripture, try to find ways around Scripture so that I can keep doing it. Being a Christian isn't easy and we all fail at some time. Yet what makes a Christian is the willingness to keep trying. Where in "Godless subhuman scum" and "evil sons of Satan" is YOUR attempt?

30/30 - hating the religion is fine. Hating Muslims is not. None of us live up to the example Jesus set. However, failure only comes after an attempt to succeed. Calling everyone who is Muslim "Godless, subhuman scum" and "evil sons of Satan" is not an attempt to succeed. Regarding planks and eyes, what you say is true, however 2 Timothy 3:16 said "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". That's what I'm doing.

jh45gun - you also mistake addressing the threat of Islam with hating Muslims. Of course we should address the threat Islam poses. It is real and immediate. However, in doing so, Jesus calls on us not to hate our enemies. I agree completely with you insofar as the fact that Muslims are warlike, that they need to be watched carefully, that we need to guard against them. That doesn't mean hating them. Yes, it is common during war to hate the enemy. It is also common for humans at any time to lie, cheat and steal. Christians have a much higher standard to meet than doing what is "common".

Hating the sin and loving the sinner is difficult but it is what we are called to do.

Here's a test for you three: go ask your minister. Ask him or her if it is OK with Jesus that we think of Muslims as "Godless, subhuman scum" and "evil sons of Satan". See what the answer is. I don't think you will be told "Yes, that's what Jesus taught us to do, how to act towards our enemies. Forget about Matthew and the Sermon on the Mount. That's too hard to live up to. Don't worry about 1 John 4:20. Too difficult. Just do the easy stuff."

Brett · « **Reply #39 on:** November 24, 2006, 03:11:24 AM »

Nabob, you and I don't often see eye to eye but I am right here with you on this one. I hate the religion and the practices of Islam, but I pray that the Muslim people will someday lose their blinders and see the truth and the light of Christ and put away their weapons and become my brothers and sisters.

powderman · « **Reply #40 on:** November 24, 2006, 03:25:06 AM »

BRETT. That would be wonderful, but not likely. These people are taught to hate from birth. Murdering innocents is what they live for.
nabob. I will concede subhuman because they were born men, not animals, but tey chose to follow satan. I guess satans disciples might better describe them than sons of satan. I can't, won't concede the term Godless, because they are. The hateful God they pray to doesn't exist. Heading for work. Later. POWDERMAN.

jh45gun · « **Reply #41 on:** November 24, 2006, 07:17:23 AM »

Nabob, When you get off your pedestal ( you must be on one as you seem to be able to hold to a higher standard than the rest of us sinners here

) Consider we are all human and it is easy to hate that which can harm you no matter what the source. Considering they consider us the Devil and Ifidels they will not stop trying to kill us. even the ones that live here send money back to fight the war against us. To me they are not US citizens no matter how long they have lived here. Not when they pull that crap. As far as going to my minister I am catholic so I would have to go to a priest. Guess what I am not that big on Clergy at the moment. Yes they are human too I realize that. I also realize they make mistakes just like the rest of us. So instead of telling us poor sinners here to uphold a higher standard I find that hard to do when God's Clergy on earth cannot do so. We have priest's molesting children at worst and if not that some have affairs with adults that break their vows of Chastity. Worse yet we have their Bishops and Cardnals covering up for them knowing or suspecting they have done so. We have ministers and pastors that to some extent do the same. We also have some that in the name of God get rich on the money they dupe out of folks that should know better all in the name of God. We have Gay ministers now and pastors and priest that while may be against the teaching of their churches openly defy that teaching. Yes I knowall Clergy is not like this, but when they are it rocks your faith. I just read a article last night of a priest I called a friend that was named in a lawsuit alleging he mollested a 18 year old woman while she was not a child it still breaks his vows of Chastity. Now I will give him the benifit of doubt untill the whole story comes out and we see what happens but still it is a punch in the gut to read such stuff and it makes ya wonder. So I find it hard to ask a clergyman their views on hateing muslums when they cannot keep the commandments themselves. Here is a question for you I have never been in the military. But looking back at history We have always called the enemy derogatory nicknames in a effort to make them less human and make it easier for the soldiers to hate them. The Germans were called Krauts, The Japanese Nips or Japs in a derogatory manner ect ect. I wonder what a chaplin would say as I would think telling a soldier to love your enemy may get that soldier killed.

azshooter · « **Reply #42 on:** November 24, 2006, 08:17:41 AM »

Alvin York had deep reservations about killing in WWI yet he did his duty. The Germans he fought were not nearly as bloodthirsty and ruthless as the Islamic facists. What we face today is a threat on a biblical level. They want all of us dead. They want nabob dead, his family dead his friends dead. There is only one way to deal with savages such as this and that is to destroy them. They will show no tolerance nor mercy for Christians. If you do not convert to Islam, they will behead you. Nabob can love em all he wants. If they killed his wife for being Christian, he would probably change his mind. nuff said.

nabob · « **Reply #43 on:** November 24, 2006, 10:57:41 AM »

jh45gun:

No pedestal, just someone who takes his faith seriously and tries to live it. I don't always make it but when I fall short, I don't make up excuses for myself. I try harder. If what you are saying is that we as humans fail in meeting the standard Jesus set for Christians, I'm on board with that. I fail daily. Yet I never use that fact to justify not bothering to try to succeed. Using the fact that others do not live up to the standard as an excuse for one's own failings is just passing the buck, in my view. "Well, other people don't meet the standard, so I guess I don't have to try, either." Sorry, that won't cut it. If you don't want to ask a clergyman, ask God directly. Do you think Jesus would say "Don't bother trying to meet the standard I've set. No problem. It was way too hard, anyway.". I doubt it.

For the umpteenth time, loving your enemy doesn't mean not defending yourself. It means doing what is necessary but not viewing them as "Godless, subhuman scum" or "evil sons of Satan". Why is it so difficult for folks who are supposedly Christian to understand that hating the sin and loving the sinner is what we are called to do by God?

nabob · « **Reply #44 on:** November 24, 2006, 11:00:36 AM »

azshooter:

I imagine you are correct. I would change my mind.

That would also mean I've left God behind, just as others who hate do. It would make me as much of a liar as those who have professed Christianity and yet still hate their brother are.

And I would hope that someone would be willing to pound Scripture into me until I let go of my hate and came back to God.

nabob · « **Reply #45 on:** November 24, 2006, 11:51:14 AM »

powderman:

I'll take it! At the very least, you've reconsidered your position and that's about all anyone can expect in a forum such as this. Good for you that you are big enough to say as much!!

jh45gun · « **Reply #46 on:** November 24, 2006, 02:13:36 PM »

Quote from: azshooter on November 24, 2006, 08:17:41 AM

Alvin York had deep reservations about killing in WWI yet he did his duty. The Germans he fought were not nearly as bloodthirsty and ruthless as the Islamic facists. What we face today is a threat on a biblical level. They want all of us dead. They want nabob dead, his family dead his friends dead. There is only one way to deal with savages such as this and that is to destroy them. They will show no tolerance nor mercy for Christians. If you do not convert to Islam, they will behead you. Nabob can love em all he wants. If they killed his wife for being Christian, he would probably change his mind. nuff said.

Good Point I wonder if one of his were killed in the 911 attack if he would feel the same. To me a Terrorist is a Terrorist I do not care which country they come from. I may be bashed on this but we had unfinished buisiness in Iraq and it should have been taken care of before GWB ever got into office. It should have been done on George Sr. watch and finished on Clintons if need be. These folks that blame Bush now for their dead soldiers should have remembered after 911 when all the flag waving was being done. He said then it would be a long difficult war and we would go where ever needed to fight the terrorist. Congress backed him on that both the Republicans and Democrats. Proves how short the dims memories or selective they are. Nabob you did not answer my question about a chaplin what they would tell the troops about the enemy?

nabob · « **Reply #47 on:** November 24, 2006, 02:29:43 PM »

I don't feel qualified to express an opinion on that, jh45gun. I'd only be guessing.

You and azshooter keep trying to make the point that if I had personally suffered a loss on 9/11, I might feel different. You are probably correct, I would feel differently. And I'd probably leave God behind in my need to hate.

I hope someone would try their best to bring me back, as I'm doing here.

jh45gun · « **Reply #48 on:** November 24, 2006, 02:45:08 PM »

Still we all in one time or the other hate some one it is human nature I find it hard that we are going to Hell for such a transgression. Might not make us the best christian but there are worse things. Hateing some one and acting on it are two different things.

nabob · « **Reply #49 on:** November 24, 2006, 02:51:37 PM »

And when we realize we are not being Christian in our actions, if we love God, we seek to redress that instead of saying "oh, well, guess that's the way it goes."

powderman · « **Reply #50 on:** November 24, 2006, 03:25:40 PM »

It's good to be able to discuss this like gentlemen, and adults, without calling each other names. POWDERMAN.

loaded4bear · « **Reply #51 on:** November 24, 2006, 03:53:39 PM »

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Revenge-seeking Shiite militiamen seized six Sunnis as they left Friday prayers, drenched them with kerosene and burned them alive, and Iraqi soldiers did nothing to stop the attack, police and witnesses said...
In the past year, thousands of bodies have been found dumped across Baghdad and other cities in central Iraq, victims who were tortured, then shot to death, according to police. The suspected militia killers often have used electric drills on their captives' bodies before killing them. The bodies are frequently decapitated.
Burning victims alive, however, introduced a new method of brutality that seemed likely to be reciprocated by the other sect as the Shiites and Sunnis continue killing one another in unprecedented numbers.

Fri Nov 24, 7:03 PM ET
AP correspondents Thomas Wagner, Bassem Mroue and Qais al-Bashir contributed to this report.

Religion of peace?...yeah right!
Look what they do to their own kind, you could only imagine what they would do to an "infidel", such as a Christian. I try to live by God's rule to love your fellow man, but this is a stretch.

powderman · « **Reply #52 on:** November 24, 2006, 04:04:35 PM »

The Godless ones butchered over 3,000 of their own this past month. POWDERMAN.

992 · « **Reply #53 on:** November 24, 2006, 06:25:42 PM »

I don't think that the ''moral highground'' that some of us are trying to maintain,can help win a war when Islam keeps killing us one by one,or one thousand by one thousand,.When you keep your head in the clouds,you keep getting your feey cut out from under you.
I guess I am just trying to say that it is time to come down from the clouds and plant our feet and our minds on solid ground,and finish the job we started years ago,or start bowing toward Mecca.
They say we worship the same God, but I think not!!!!
You don't have to hate them to hate what they have done,and continue to do,but sometimes it is hard not to.It is better to admit that I hate them,and ask to be forgiven,that to pretend that I don' hate them.
I guess that I am with POWDERMAN on this subject,and I ask that we may both be forgiven.

992
May God have mercy on us all.

nabob · « **Reply #54 on:** November 24, 2006, 10:53:39 PM »

Will staying right with God help us win this war? I think so. It lets us know what we are fighting for, not just fighting against. What does it profit a man, to gain the entire world, if he loses his soul in the process?

jh45gun · « **Reply #55 on:** November 25, 2006, 06:44:35 AM »

Quote from: nabob on November 24, 2006, 10:53:39 PM

Will staying right with God help us win this war? I think so. It lets us know what we are fighting for, not just fighting against. What does it profit a man, to gain the entire world, if he loses his soul in the process?

On that comment the US never has tried to gain the entire world on the other hand the muzzies have tried countless times! You must agree with Powderman they are soul-less eh.

nabob · « **Reply #56 on:** November 25, 2006, 12:17:43 PM »

The quote is from Matthew 16:26. It is about losing eternal life by not following the example of Christ. It isn't about world conquest.

As for Muslims, I do not believe that they follow or accept Christ, so they have lost eternal life with God.