Author Topic: should a bullet exit an animal or not??  (Read 4610 times)

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Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2006, 05:25:02 PM »
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Folks are so "over gunned" these days who cares if some energy is expended in the ground on the other side of the animial?

 YEAH! Ever since the advent of smokeless powder all of those new fangled cartriges are overkill in the extreme ::)

 I get a kick out of how people like you think that a 300 win mag wich barely has 200 FPS (about 8% more velocity)  over a 30-06 is some kind of comparitive cannon

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2006, 01:43:55 AM »
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Folks are so "over gunned" these days who cares if some energy is expended in the ground on the other side of the animial?

 YEAH! Ever since the advent of smokeless powder all of those new fangled cartriges are overkill in the extreme ::)

 I get a kick out of how people like you think that a 300 win mag wich barely has 200 FPS (about 8% more velocity)  over a 30-06 is some kind of comparitive cannon

I agree with you on that one krochus.
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Offline jpsmith1

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2006, 01:52:56 AM »
The problem is that a lot of these people cannot handle the larger guns.  In my experience, a .30-06 is a big kicker for the mythical average shooter.  Hand one of these nimrods a .338 and they'll develop a flinch after 2 rounds if it takes that long.

Thus, the term overgunned.  Is it too much for deer?  No.  Is it too much for the shooter?  Yup.  I've fought flinch myself in heavier kicking handguns and believe that I have it whipped at least for now, but it took thousands of .22, .38 and .45 loads at normal powerlevels, plus hours of dry-fire practice.

Watched a guy with a new 7mm that had upgraded from a .30-30.  He burnt probably 30 rounds before he hit a deer.  I guess that a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2006, 02:54:47 AM »
Not all guns are for everyone, I don't think my 416 Rigby has a lot of recoil. I shoot a 30-06, 300 Win Mag and a 338 Win mag and all of them don't have a lot of recoil to me. All recoil is perceived in my opinion. I know it is actual but we all perceive recoil differently. Just because one guy has a problem shooting a 7 mm mag  does not mean it is being over gunned or for that matter a nimrod.  ::)
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Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2006, 04:24:25 AM »
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  People like me???  What kind of people would that be???  Do you think i've taken the time to hunt with a magnum to even know of what i speak???


 HA HA! It stinks when people make generalizing statments that lump all kinds of diffrent shooters into ONE category. DONT IT?

 Put the shoe on the other foot and see what happens. :'(

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2006, 04:30:28 AM »
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HA HA! It stinks when people make generalizing statments that lump all kinds of diffrent shooters into ONE category. DONT IT? Put the shoe on the other foot and see who's underwear gets in a wad.

  Are you sure you don't need to reread this whole thread???  I never put anyone anyplace....  I showed a couple pictures, and made the statement that most folks today are over gunned for "deer"....  That hardly makes me anti anything or putting you or anyone else "lumped" into anything....

  DM

Offline jpsmith1

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2006, 03:04:44 PM »
Redhawk, trust me, the guy is an id10t.  He decided that since he MISSED with a .30-30, he needed a 7mm.  Go figure.

In no way did I mean that nobody needs or can use the large caliber guns, just that a lot of people buy them and can't handle them.  Just because you have a magnum, it doesn't make you a better hunter or a better shot.  On the other hand, just condemning magnums or avoiding them completely doesn't make you a better hunter either.

I was trying to make the point that most magnum rifles are more difficult to shoot well due to increase recoil and blast for what was already stated is about 8% gain.  I've also seen guys flinch on .30-30s and .30-06s, so it's not solely a magnum problem either.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2006, 05:23:09 PM »
jpsmith1, I agree with you on that.  ;D
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Offline kyote

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2006, 08:57:45 AM »
Interesting most hunters replied that they would like their bullets to exit an animal.even though this is a deer hunting forum.and we are in the U.S..not all bullets will exit an "animal" if using legal hunting rifles and ammunition.I sure do understand blood trails and wanting one if the animal bolts from the shot and impact.and some do run far with more then fatal shots.like the one guy that shot a doe and its heart rolled out when he gutted it from the muzzel loader lead belt bullet are what everit was.but he said the animal ran 200 yards.with no heart.well use enough gun and that will not happen.my bud came back from the dark continient and shot a zebra (big one)with a 30-06.the PH said it was a good shot and no need to shoot again.they tracked the zebra for over a mile before they found it dead.there was no exit of the bullet.but he said the heart was mush.
Am wondering if he used a rifle of a more formidable caliber if the zebra would have run?something that would have created more shock.greater wound channel?some thing that would have exited?may be the heart shot by itself is not the best shot.maybe taking the front leg/shoulder bone and some lung with the heart is better.
there have been many deer taken with Buck shot with shot guns.I do not know personely of any buck shot exiting deer.but the multiple impacts ofthe shot hitting the deer causes an effect that will normally knock the deer to the ground.with out it running off.but it must be hit correctly for this to happen.running,standin or laying on the ground when hit they go no where but to the freezer.
I have been very lucky in my life with deer hunting.was able to go every saturday for years and during the dry season every sat.,sun,and wensday. would divide the dogs in 1/3rds and take a 1/3 every time we went.dry season lasted 4 months.the club and I shot many deer and all were taken with 12gauge shotguns.and if hit correctly.they went down like they were hit by the hammer of thor.if not we tracked em.the dogs were good at that.
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Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2006, 09:34:55 AM »
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.like the one guy that shot a doe and its heart rolled out when he gutted it from the muzzel loader lead belt bullet are what everit was.but he said the animal ran 200 yards.with no heart.well use enough gun and that will not happen

 Talk about people thinking it takes a magnum to kill a deer. ::) All of a sudden a 285grn .50 caliber powerbelt over a charge of 110 grs of FFFg now Isn't enough to kill deer cleanly

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Am wondering if he used a rifle of a more formidable caliber if the zebra would have run?

 In all likelyhood YES!

Offline joshco84

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2006, 12:58:28 PM »
personally i have shot deer with 243, 30.06, and 7mm rem mag.   all three 243 shots were with 100 gr soft points and all three exited.  dont know how many 06 but 180 soft point and all exited.  these were all heart and lung shots so no problem.  winchester silver box on both.  the seven mag, shoots 150 grain ballistic silvertips and all have exited except one and it was my fault.  it was broadside shot straight into the middle of the shoulder bone and lodged on the inside of the opposite shoulder blade.  but all with the correct shot placement left plenty of blood.  and with all shots some ran 100 yards and some dropped imediately, just depends on how the deer feels like reacting i think ;D  as too whoever mentioned the blood splatter from the shot exiting, i shot a doe in front of a round bale last year, and it looked like a water baloon full of blood thrown at the bale it was pretty neat.   i also had a friend shoot a doe with a slug out of a shotgun, and wow, you talk about splatter, even the entrance wound had splattered some back out. looked like someone had shot it with a howitzer the way the blood on the ground looked.
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Offline NYH1

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2006, 02:58:27 PM »
I've shot four deer so far, all in wooded areas. One with my 280 Rem. using Remington's 140 gr. Core-Lokt ammo. Shot it in the shoulder at about 50 yards. It was a bang flop with a nice exit wound.
Two with my 308 using Remington's 150 Core-Lokt ammo. One was shot in the shoulder at about 75 yards and it was also a bang flop with a nice exit wound. The other was shot in the heart/lung area at about 40 yards totally destroying the heart. This deer ran about 45 yards or so. There was a massive exit wound about the size of a baseball, I couldn't believe it.
The last deer I shot was with my Marlin 336 35 Rem. Shot him at about 75 yards. As I pulled the trigger he turned and stepped up a little. I was aiming for the middle of the lungs. I hit him in the left rear leg and the bullet went about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch below his stomach then hit his front right leg. Both legs were busted big time. I had to apply a finisher when I got to him. When I pulled the trigger I was on his lungs, he moved that quick.

But yes I want an exit wound.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2006, 04:25:13 PM »
    I have shot several deer with a 25-06 with 120 grain remingtons. All pass throughs. I want an exit. But I can also say fron experiencs that no caliber will exit every time with expanding loads. I had seen several mule deer shot with magnums from 7 to 338 broadside where the bullet stopped on the farside skin? This was rare but did happen several times. I am at a loss for explaing this one. As for blowing them off there feet that is a definite no. Physics doesn't work that way. One explaination of this came from guys culling cape buffalo in Africa with a 338 win. They were very careful about trying to make heart shots on these animals. Once in a great while one would drop on the spot with hardly a twitch. The people were quite surprised by this happning with such a "marginal caliber". They had a vet do an autopsie on the buffalo and discovered the arteries in the brains were all blown out on the instant kills. The explaination given was that the heart was consticted at full pressure when the bullet hit the heart and caused and extreme pressure pusle in the blood pressure causing massive hemoraging in the brain.   

   This seemed to answer the question of instant kills on a heart shot for me.
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Offline Ranger J

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2006, 04:34:32 AM »
Myth Busters did a good show on the idea of a shot knocking anyone down.  They hung a pig carcass on a hook so that it took very little to knock it off.  Then they fired a range of weapons at it up to 12g rifled slugs.  The results, the carcass barley twitched with any round. 
I however like a good blood trail.  I shot a doe with 150G 30-06 and it took off and ran 150 yards into the brush.  Bullet went straight through so a blind man could have trailed it.  Deer ran until it ran out of blood I guess.
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Offline crawdaddyjim

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2006, 05:21:51 PM »
Thanks for the link. Some very interesting reading. Especially where he talks about sectional density and penetration. I have been wondering about a wildcat in 6.5-06 AI and a fast twist barrel to use a heavy bullet in the 170 grain range.

Offline beemanbeme

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2006, 06:13:56 AM »
To highjack this thread for a moment, can someone direct me to the survey that had to run something like this: Do you shoot a magnum?  How badly do you flinch?  1. a great deal __ 2. a lot __ 3. more than anyone shooting a lesser cartridge __ .
It has to be out there somewhere.  It's often quoted by folks  that have little information otherwise but they are sure of that one "fact".

 ;D

Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2006, 06:28:34 AM »
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Do you shoot a magnum?  How badly do you flinch?  1. a great deal __ 2. a lot __ 3. more than anyone shooting a lesser cartridge __ .

 YES I shoot a 300wby and NO I don't flinch any more than when shooting a 22LR.


 I get where you're coming from, What's really silly is a 3" 12ga shell kicks just about as hard as any 300 mag. Yet you don't see people raling about how shotgunners are ruining thier rifle shooting abilities.






Offline Redhawk1

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2006, 03:39:26 AM »
krochus, I think we went to the same school of shooting, I don't flinch either. I know recoil is going to happen, I just deal with it.

People that flinch will do so with even non-magnums. Thy are scared of recoil plain and simple.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2006, 08:34:24 AM »
Anyone who hasn't YET developed a flinch just hasn't shot enough YET or hasn't shot enough heavy recoiling loads YET. It's not a matter of whether you will develop a flinch it's merely a matter of when. Flinching has nothing to do with fear, it's the body's normal reaction to an excess of punishment from recoil.

Yes everyone has a different tolerance level and how many rounds of what it takes will vary by individual but believe me shoot enough heavy recoiling loads and it WILL HAPPEN to you. There are not many of us who have shot competition with shotguns for many years who haven't developed it. Go to any skeet or trap range and talk with the old timers and ask how many have developed flinches over the years. Most will say they have. It's why so many trap shooters and even a lot of skeet shooters use release triggers.

Once you've earned your flinch you WILL NOT control it with your mind, sorry but that's BS from someone who's not yet been there.

I developed a REALLY BAD flinch about ten years ago. It was so bad I'd often fail to even be able to force myself to pull the trigger and the target would just sail on by with me trying my best to will the gun to fire but it wouldn't. I even got to the point that one day when I called pull I also pulled the trigger immediately. I had it so bad one day I called pull and pointed the gun at the ground and pulled the trigger. It was BAD. I earned it from shooting 500 or more 12 ga shotshells per day for many many days and many of them ounce and a quarter loads used in a money game we played where the ONLY thing that mattered was the target had to break.

I laid off shooting shotguns at all for years and did most all of my hunting with handguns to avoid even the rifle recoil. It finally went away or so it seemed. I'm now back into skeet shooting and most weeks shoot three times and usually shoot 100 rounds per session. Guess what? The flinch has returned. If I use the 12 ga or even the 20 it usually hits me mildly a few times during the day. For now it's mostly a difficulty in making the gun go bang and especially at the right time. Some times I clearly jerk the gun just as I fire, some times I'm able to not pull the trigger at the jerk and hold the shot until I'm able to get back on it.

This time my solution has been to go to the .410 almost exclusively and the rest is usually shot with the 28 ga and in a heavy 12 ga gun with sub gauge tubes that weights about ten pounds or so. It's helping but you cannot just turn off the mind once that really bad flinch develops. Shoot enough and it WILL develop no matter who you are. It's merely a matter of finding your body's recoil tolerance level, believe me it has one.


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Offline jpsmith1

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2006, 10:50:36 AM »
Graybeard is right.  Everyone will flinch, sooner or later.  I don't need a survey or a poll to tell me that shooters are flinching.  Watch some of them sometimes.  They can barely bring themselves to touch off a shot.  They KNOW that the gun is going to hammer them nad a SCARED to death of it.  Some of it is poor bench technique.  Being hunched over a heavy kicker is not conducive to good shooting and that is how most practice.  10 rounds off the bench the weekend before the season and 10 in your pocket on opening day.

The shotgun arguement holds no water.  Most shotgunning is done from a standing position which is the best position for absorbing heavy recoil.  Also, who shoots 'recreationally' with 3" magnum loads?  Not my cup of tea.  Most shoot 1oz or 1 1/8 oz loads that kick pretty soft comparitively.  Shooting a shotgun laid over a bench with 3" loads would start up a flinch in 'average joe' shooter, just as quick as your 300 mags.

The ultimate answer is practice.  I've seen well practiced shooters land a bullet expertly under the most extreme conditions and I've seen some goof-offs who couldn't hit a barn from the inside. 
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2006, 11:32:25 AM »
Shoot 500 of those "light" shotgun loads you think are so nice to the shoulder a day once or more often per week and then tell me it don't hold water. That's the voice of inexperience talking and nothing more. If you ain't been there don't try to tell folks what it's like there. But in my money shooting days those 500 were more likely to be heavier kicking 1-1/4 oz loads moving at 1300+ fps. Take that day in and day out and tell me you don't flinch, of course don't expect me to believe it.


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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2006, 12:29:57 PM »
Graybeard, do you think there is a difference between a flinch and recoil anticipation?  I thing there is. I have see people flinch to the point they did not hit the target, that my friend is being scared. I have seen guys that had a misfire jerk thing there was going to get recoil, I have seen guys close there eyes when they got ready to pull the trigger. Now if you say they are not scared, I will have to disagree with you. But a flinch is associated with being afraid of the recoil. But I have see guys  sitting on the bench tense up knowing that the recoil is coming, but that was from like you said, a lot of time on the bench. I sore shoulder will make you not want to pull the trigger.

Now with anticipating recoil, I have seen guys actually push there rifles forward to counter recoil, in my opinion it make it worse on the shooter because the gun has a distance to travel before it meets the shoulder.

With handguns, anticipating recoil is more common. It is pushing the barrel forward in anticipation of the recoil.  It shows on the target, the groups will be lower than the point of aim.  A good example of that was my buddy shooting my 460 Mag. At 25 yards the gun was hitting the bullseye. I could put all my shots in that area, but when he shot it, his group was 2 to 3 inches lower than mine. So I only placed 3 rounds in the chamber and had him shoot again, guess what he did when he pulled the trigger on an empty chamber, he pushed the gun forward and downward. Not a flinch but he was anticipating recoil.
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Offline Don Fischer

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2006, 12:41:39 PM »
A flinch by any other name is still a flinch!
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Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2006, 12:46:46 PM »
I've done the push the barrel forward thing on bigger handguns, usually after I haven't shot in a while. Then I just have to make sure I react the correct way every time. I concentrate on letting the gun react how it wants, instead of trying to force it to react the way I want it to. This usually works for me.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2006, 03:56:11 PM »
A flinch by any other name is still a flinch!

Sorry I don't agree with you on this one.
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Offline TxRattler

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2006, 05:01:54 PM »
energy or duming energy theories are the biggest hunk of crap in how a bullet actually kills.
A bullet with a kinetic energy of 2000lbs is bogus too. No bullet will move 2000lbs 1 ft
You have to understand energy.
 I copied and pasted this it explains energy, and you'll see a bullet has very little energy.

Part I: "Energy Dumping" Is A Myth

Let me state right here and now that there are two terms you're going to hear that have no meaning. If you haven't heard them yet, you will, if you spend any time at all on a shooting range or hanging around the wiseacres in gun shops. Both refer to popular myths among shooters about how a bullet kills, and are based on thorough misunderstanding of ballisitics and biology.

"Hydrostatic shock" is the idea that a bullet kills by setting up a "shock wave" in the incompressible water of which an animal's body is largely composed. "Energy dumping" is the concept that if a bullet stops within an animal, it will kill more effectively than one that goes through and exits, since it "releases its entire amount of energy within the body."

As intuitively appealing as these notions are, the fact is that a bullet kills the same way any other agent of penetrating trauma does. A bullet may act faster than a knife or an arrow, but like them it kills either: 1) by causing a rapid loss of blood pressure, depriving the central nervous system of oxygen; or 2) by physically interfering with nerve pathways; or 3) both.




The False Reasoning Behind The "Energy Dumping" Fallacy
The bullet does indeed have a good deal of kinetic energy, and the faster it's moving the more it has, of course. In the USA bullet energy levels are rated in "foot-pounds", a relatively obscure unit implying the amount of energy needed to move one pound of weight one foot.
European countries use the much more sensible metric system, and in this system the energy unit is the "joule". While both these units refer to energy of movement, the joule has the advantage that it can easily be converted to units used to measure heat. One calorie is equivalent to 4.1 joules, the calorie being a unit of heat. Specifically, one calorie is the amount of heat needed to raise one gram of water one degree Celsius. (The comparable unit in the US system is the BTU, but converting foot-pounds to BTU's is not so straightforward as converting joules to calories.)
A bullet fired from a reasonably powerful handgun, say a hot 9mm Parabellum load, has an energy level of perhaps 500 joules at the muzzle.
So why do I care about converting muzzle energy figures into heat? Because if a bullet is stopped in its target, that's exactly what happens: its residual kinetic energy is, in fact released (or, as the wiseacres have it, "dumped") into the animal's body; but it's released as heat, in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics. (This is the reason why your car's brakes heat up when you stop: that energy can't be destroyed, it can only be converted to another form, and the "defaut" is to convert it to heat.)
The amount of heat liberated by stopping a bullet is surprisingly small: 500 joules works out to be about 106 calories. That would be enough to raise 106 grams (about 0.25 pounds) of water one degree Celsius (about 1.8 degrees Fahrenheit). That's not all that much, especially when compared to the size of animal it has to be "dumped" into.
A man is a pretty large animal (about the size of a deer) and 500 joules (or 106 calories) of energy diffused through the body of a 150-pound (68,100 gram) human would not suffice to raise his body temperature even one-one-hundreth of a degree Fahrenheit. And that is a maximum amount, which assumes the bullet is stopped and that the shot was fired at point-blank range. To have a noticeable effect on tissue temperature you would have to "dump" a great deal more energy than 500 or so joules: the amount of heat liberated even by the biggest and baddest bullet available is very far below the capacity of the body's water to absorb it. It should be obvious, then, that the theory of "energy dumping" is based on an exaggerated idea of how much energy a bullet actually has, and is meaningless as a part of the killing mechanism.
Believers in the "energy dumping" theory never seem to have an adequate explanation for the fact that there are many, many gunshot victims are still walking around with bullets that "dumped" all their energy, and are still inside the victims. Many people with such retained bullets received them at close range from large-caliber guns, and were therefore the unlucky recipients of lots of "dumped" energy, but they are still alive. The answer, however, is really very simple: they are still alive because they were lucky enough not to have received a hit in a vital area.


Offline Graybeard

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2006, 07:48:04 PM »
Quote
Graybeard, do you think there is a difference between a flinch and recoil anticipation?

Yes I think we can agree on that. I think a lot of folks misuse the term flinch when what is really meant is recoil anticipation and that is for sure fear of what's about to happen. One of the worse cases of this I can think of is my oldest son's stepson. Bob brought him over to get ready for deer season a couple years back. He had tried my wife's Rem 7 7-08 first with 100 grain loads and wasn't even hitting the 8.5"x11" target sheet at 25 yards. I figured he had to be afraid of the recoil so I moved him to a Marlin .44 mag with super light loads and then to an EMF .45 Colt with CAS level loads. He still wasn't even coming close. I watched him and what he was doing was lining up the sights and then as he readied to pull the trigger he would raise his head, close his eyes and just jerk the trigger. I took the guns back in the house and told him no more centerfire until he was able to prove to me he was ready. He's not been back yet.

That's a conscious reaction to recoil that has hurt one in the past.

What I'm talking about most of us old shotgunners have is much different. It's a subconscious action we have absolutely no control over. Oh at times I can catch myself in mid stride and not pull the trigger when the jerk reaction happens but when it's the mind refusing to tell the finger to pull the trigger it's not often possible to overcome it and I just watch the target sail away unharmed.

I recall when I was doing the test of the RB454 and the FA83 in .454 both at the same time I'd go to my range and fire 150 to 200 full house loads each day and wow did that take a toll on my nerves by the end of the testing. It was all I could do to not do the recoil anticipation thing and shoot bad groups near the end of each session. When I'd finish by hands and arms were shaking uncontrollably for hours afterward. That was about my recoil tolerance for handguns. Those hot COR-BON and Buffalo Bore loads in the heaviver weight bullets were pure misery for me in the FA83 when I took the scope off for the iron sight part of the review. I never had a shooting session that didn't bring blood and most of them brought it several times.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline jpsmith1

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2006, 05:29:08 AM »
I was not replying to you in particular, Graybeard.  My reply was more directed to krochus who said:
YES I shoot a 300wby and NO I don't flinch any more than when shooting a 22LR.


 I get where you're coming from, What's really silly is a 3" 12ga shell kicks just about as hard as any 300 mag. Yet you don't see people raling about how shotgunners are ruining thier rifle shooting abilities.



Shooting 500 rounds daily will result in a FLINCH.  There is no question about that and it doesn't matter too much what you shoot.
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Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: should a bullet exit an animal or not??
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2006, 12:20:03 PM »
I was not replying to you in particular, Graybeard.  My reply was more directed to krochus who said:
YES I shoot a 300wby and NO I don't flinch any more than when shooting a 22LR.


 I get where you're coming from, What's really silly is a 3" 12ga shell kicks just about as hard as any 300 mag. Yet you don't see people raling about how shotgunners are ruining thier rifle shooting abilities.






Shooting 500 rounds daily will result in a FLINCH.  There is no question about that and it doesn't matter too much what you shoot.


 I don't doubt that, But if you eat Big Macs 3 meals a day you'll probably get fat as well. The key word is moderation