.243 85gr= Strange Reaction from Deer?

[ThunderStick]

     I decided to try a new bullet this year in my .243 Win. I have read good reviews of the Sierra Game King HP in 85grs. I worked up a loading that shoots very well in my rifle and took her hunting Saturday.
    As fate would have it a nice 9 pt walked by at about 125 yards. I couldn't get my perfered double lung shot so I sorta went for a quarting into the lungs shot from an agle slightly back to front. Well the rifle barked, the deer trotted about 10 feet and turned around and started walking back from the direction it had come from. I thought, don't tell me I missed such an easy shot! I put one through the ribs behind the shoulder, the deer just stood there!!! I was about to shoot him again when I saw him waver and knew he was going down.
   Now the strang thing is, I have never had a deer act like this before, and I have killed with this rifle! On dressing I found I had indeed hit him twice and his lungs where blown up! The first shot penetrated the ribs, vitals and logged under the skin on the far brisket. The second was a broadside pass through.
   Has anyone else had a deer act like this from being shot? Most I have shot in the past with the 100gr Rem. Corlock either dropped in their tracks or ran 50 or so yards before piling up.

[sculbert1]

I've used that bullet on two deer last year, but they were both high shoulder shots that broke the spine and they went down in their tracks.  Both were pass thru shots.  Can you post a pic of the recovered bullet?  I really would think that first shot would have put him down or "hurt" him really bad since it expended all of its energy in him.

Btw, my brother shoots Federal factory loads with the speer hot-cor 80gr bullet and swears by it.  He's killed 4 or 5 with that load but has never had an "on shoulder" shot yet.

[beemanbeme]

Yes I have.  That's why I don't hunt deer or anything for that matter with a .243. 

[flintlock]

I have used the Federal Premium loading with that bullet on 25-30 deer...Have shot several with the same angle you are discribing...none went over 25 yards...I did shoot one buck behind the shoulder with a CoreLokt 15 years or so that did a similiar thing...He danced around for about 10 yards...I finished him with a neck shot...But he was dead on his feet...First bullet went through both lungs and exited at about 75 yards or so, as you stated, lungs were mush...

The deer you shot was dead...He just didn't know it yet...He would have dropped quickly, even without the 2nd shot...I have killed 80 or so deer with the CoreLokt...It has been my experience that deer shot with the 85gr hollow point (the Federal loading is about 3320 fps) will fall faster with a lung shot than with the 100gr CoreLokt...I too have killed several with a  high shoulder shot with the 85gr...Never had a problem with it...

[Thebear_78]

when all pumped up during the rut I have seen them take similar shots with a 30/06 and have the same result.  adrenaline is a very powerful thing.

[victorcharlie]

Yes I have.  That's why I don't hunt deer or anything for that matter with a .243. 

The deer went 10 feet, turned around and fell over dead........why is this a bad thing?

I've used the .243 on over 50 deer....I've only had 2 run.

I had a fellow tell me he shot a deer the other day with a .444 and the deer ran 50 yards and fell.  He was complaining it didn't fall dead in it's tracks.

Fellows, Most of the time, if you hit the right they bang flop.......some time they don't.......and I don't care what it is your shooting, some times it happens.

In my mind, the .243 performs fine on deer.  Yours did too......

[nasem]

well... speaking of strange.....its amazing how tough little 120 lbs deer can be.

On october 22 of this year, I shot my first ever 120 lbs doe @ about 50-60ish yards.  I was using brother's 7mm mag with a 175 gr cor-lokt bullet (yeh I know WAYYY over kill).  It was a broad way shot directly through both lungs, in the way in, it broke the left shoulder, destroyed the heart, exploded both lungs, and the deer still managed to run about 15-20 yeards, can you believe that?

The enterance hole was... typical, sise of a 7mm, exit was about the size of a quarter.

[Maryland Hunter]

I shot a large doe last year, with my 6.5X55 Howa. Hit it right behnd the shoulder, perfect broadside, at 50 yards. She still managed to run over 200 yards before expiring! Small entrance wound, and small exit wound, no expansion. I called Sierra and talkked with a balistician about it. He took a lot of detailed information, and everything about my load was, according to him, perfect. It should have expanded, and it should have taken her down a lot quicker. One of those freak things. They happen sometimes.

MH

[jpsmith1]

Call the Mythbusters!!!  The Shock Myth is dead!!!  Bullet energy is only a calculation that compares 'apples to apples'  It's actually a velocity weighted formula that doesn't take nearly enough variables into account to be a reliable predictor of field performance.

The deer was clearly dead, but didn't know enough to drop over.  Probably doesn't read Guns&Ammo. 

[ratgunner]

Shock Myth dead ? I doubt it.

[Graybeard]

Been dead a LONG LONG time as far as I'm concerned. I've been trying for years to open folk's eyes to the myth of kinetic or paper energy.

[BruceP]

The deer was clearly dead, but didn't know enough to drop over.  Probably doesn't read Guns&Ammo.

 

I think that maybe the deer did read Guns&Ammo.
It knew that it had not been shot with one of those super duper magnums so it was not suppose to fall down. 

BruceP

[ratgunner]

OK then tell me why deer drop faster on average when hit with a 150grn 30-06 than with a 180grn ?Most certianly IS hydrostatic shock.

[jpsmith1]

AVERAGE??  There are no average shots.  Each shot is completely unique.  Each animal is unique.

If hydrostatic shock were all that and then some, why not use a .458 or a .460 Weatherby?  Why not go for all the marbles and use a .50 BMG?

Why does one deer drop in it's tracks and another show absolutely no reaction at all to the shot?  Where are the thousands of pounds of energy?  Why is the .30-30 still a top choice of deer hunters around the country when the .30-06 is clearly a better choice.  Let's not even get into the .300 magnums.  There's enough shock there to kill a herd of deer at once.

I've heard the the 7mm can drop elk in their tracks at 700 yards.  That much shock should kill deer within a hundred yards even if you miss.

Bullet shock is only effective in ONE type of hunting.  Varmint.  The hydrostatic shock, combined with a lightly constructed bullet is instantly lethal on very small animals.  Beyond that, shock is there, just not of any real application in killing animals or comparing effectiveness.

[ThunderStick]

Can you post a pic of the recovered bullet? 

      I put him in the freezer a few days ago. I can't post a picture now, but I can give an accurate discreption of the bullet. I didn't take it and weigh it, but I would guess it only retained 1/2 it's origonal weight. The core and base where intact, but could be pulled apart and it was a shredded mushroom shape with most of the jacket material intact with just over 2/3 of the lead core missing. Upon dressing the deer I found the first shot I had fired was a little low. This may be the reason he acted strangly at the first shot. I suspose luck was in my favor that he presented a second shot opportunity that proved to be a quicker kill. I beleave if this deer had made a mad dash, like some I've seen, it could have been a long tracking duty.
     I have killed many, many deer in my life so far. One thing I have seen over and over, with my self and other hunters, is that bullet placement is the key! I try to never make a bad shot or take a risky shot. I killed a smaller buck a few days later with my .223, a neck shot dropped him with out a step taken. That doesen't proove the .223 is a better deer cartrage, only the bullet placement made for a quicker kill.
    I actually do limit my range for the .243 to about 300 yards. The only bad experences I have had with the .243 have been on very long range shots, 400-500 yards, I just won't take the long range shots anymore. I actually did follow the blood trail to the deer just after a neighbour shot him with a .280 Rem. from 30 yards, the bullet holes where less than 2 inches apart! I feel I would have recovered this deer, as he was dead on his feet, I'm glad he got him. I would be willing to bet that most shots made here are between 50 and 150 yards, and I hate to she deer "blown half into" by those super fast, over powered guns!
    O'well, I just have never had one react quite like this one did! Euro mount hanging on the wall now and meat in the freezer, all is good!

[ratgunner]

Because a ,50 BMG or a .458 would give very little shock to a deer.A 220 Swift on the other hand would spend its energy INSIDE the deer..458 would most likely punch a .45 cal. hole in and out.Catching on yet ?

[jpsmith1]

and in some states, the .220 Swift is not a legal arm for deer hunting.

Explain then how a hit in the shoulder muscle WITH NO PENETRATION is not a lethal hit.  All that super-duper shock and energy is expended in the animal, yet it doesn't die instantly.  I've seem this happen more than once and have spent a few pistol rounds cleaning up after other people's 'shocker' bullets.

Is there energy transfer between the bullet and the animal?  Yup!  Does energy transfer kill the animal.  Not really.  Penetration into the vitals with damage done there is what kills.

3 modes of death.
  a> circulatory.  Either due to damage to the heart or excess blood loss.  Causes shock and death.
  b> Respiratory.  Asphixiation due to damage to the lungs or thachea.
  c> CNS damage.  No explanation needed.

Probably the best killer of an animal is a sharp broadhead.  Launched from an powerful bow, it penetrates deeply and cuts severly WITH MINIMAL SHOCK!  I've seen deer shot with an arrow show almost no reaction from the shot and continue feeding while blood pours out of their side.  2 or 3 wobbly steps later, it falls on it's nose.  Bled out with no shock value.

Also, how do you explain the undisputed success of hard-cast LBT style bullet in handguns?  These bullets are designed for one thing.  DEEP PENETRATION.  There is minimal to no bullet expansion and only a moderate wound.

[ratgunner]

Lets not turn this into an arguement,but YES if you hit bone your screwed however thats not what the original topic was about.Why use hardcast in a handgun?Simple you cant get enough velocity for alot of hydroshock.But go to a single shot pistol and look at what they shoot for bullets,not hardcast.I would sooner have the energy spent in the animal than in a tree 50yards away...what good is that?

[ratgunner]

I used the .458 and .220 Swift as the extremes to make a point.I believe there is a happy medium somewhere inbetween.

[jpsmith1]

Lets not turn this into an arguement,but YES if you hit bone your screwed

I'd rather not have to worry about hitting bones.  Maybe I'm not that great of a shot, but I've never been able to guarantee not hitting bone.

Certainly there is a happy medium.  Most of us use one of the great compromise guns.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.  I still don't believe that hydrostatic shock does the killing.

[ThunderStick]

I still don't believe that hydrostatic shock does the killing.
 
    Well, yea and no! Hydrostatic shock in the vitals does indeed kill quicker than say the ole 45 hard cast through the lungs. The temporary cavitation caused by the super sonic shock waves tears more lung tissue and arteries. This leads to a quicker death. The hyrostatic shock "some times" intrupts the CNS and causes instant death. I don't count on this myself and have always used the double lung shot sucessfully. This has been with the high velocity types or my old hawken .50 shooting a patched round ball!

   
     I killed a rabbit from 200 yards with a .243 and only nicked his ear! I have also blown half the head off a rabbit and it just sat there! I guess if we all play this hunting game long enough we all get to see some unexpected reactions from our game??
     ps. I also saw a doe that had impaled herself on a steel T post, she was just as dead.

[poncaguy]

Most deer I have shot with a 270 130 grain drop in their tracks, had one run 30 yards, usually heart and lungs are jello. Also have deer drop instantly with 348 grain Powerbelt in my Omega black powder rifle. This year, I'm using 300WSM, 45-70 Leveraction  rounds and my 35 Whelen. I love 'em all.............

[Will_C]

I shot a 125lb buck here in New York Wednesday. the deer was shot @ 31 yards with a 150gr accubond out of a .30-06. I hit it through the low lungs, the bullet exited and the deer just flinched slightly, and walked foward about 20 yards. It stopped just 15 yards from me and I could watch blood pouring out of the exit wound. It stayed on its feet for at least 5 seconds, time enough for me to get out my handgun and start walking toward it. I was about 6 feet away and getting ready to shoot it with the .357 and it toppled.
Will

[jimmyp50]

Every deer is different.  I have shot a few deer with .308, 30-06, and .270 with nothing more than 180 grain bullets and nothing less than 130 grain bullets. I used a ballistic tip once that hit a rib and went to pieces but I understand these are better now.  I have stuck with mostly cor loc or power point bullets up to this point and I have never failed to see a complete pass through of the deers body.  Some run, some don't but I always find them with a good blood trail.   Someone told me that the game kings were softer than Power Points, that the bullet in this example did not penetrate leads me to believe that might be the case.  I am interested in buying myself a .243 as I get older I get tired of dealing with recoil and weight but I think I will load 100 grain Nosler partitions just to be sure, or maybe the Sierra Pro Hunter which is supposed to be a tougher bullet.   I also don't believe in hydrostatic shock.  A good hole through the target both in and out seems to be best, the non expanding 6.5 mm bullet in this string gives me pause as well, I wonder what the story was with regards to that!  200 yards is a long way to trail a deer!   I guess if I was covered up with deer I would take more risks in the types of bullets that I use but we don't see as many these days as we used to do on our lease...but it is always the same...some run and some don't.

[Maryland Hunter]

the non expanding 6.5 mm bullet in this string gives me pause as well, I wonder what the story was with regards to that! 

jimmyp50,

I wish I knew as well! I was hunting ther same stand today, and thinking about that shot still. I forgot to mention that the bullet hit no rib, in or out, but I still would expect better performance than what i got. As I said, Sierra was stumped too. I did find the deer, and the blood trail wasn't too bad, but still...200 yards. I've written it off as one of "those things", and moved on. They happen sometimes, and all we can do is analyze the hell out of them, make sure we did nothing wrong, and try it again.

MH

[victorcharlie]

What did  you expect Sierra to say?

[Slamfire]

Because a ,50 BMG or a .458 would give very little shock to a deer.A 220 Swift on the other hand would spend its energy INSIDE the deer..458 would most likely punch a .45 cal. hole in and out.Catching on yet ?

I beg to disagree, yore magisty, I have put 48 grain factory rounds through the armor of a WWII half track, how's that for penetration!

[ratgunner]

Well thats just wonderfull for penetration.However we are talking about hydrostatic shock not penetration.BTW my name here is "ratgunner" NOT your majesty.You need to learn to read ,spell and respect.

[Slamfire]

Well you are opinionated to say the least. If Hydrostatic shock was in fact the killing agent in high velocity bullet wounds, how come I never found a ruptured blood vessel remote frrom the wound. You can find ruptured capularies in the immediate area of the wound, and the reason is the bullet carries the shock wave into the wound channel. For proof of this look at the pictures of bullets traveling through ballistic geletin. Varmints come apart when this shock wave balooning exceeds their total body size, but large game contains it quite well. If the ainimal survived he'd have a massive bruise there. When I hit the heart/aorta area, it is the loss of oxygen to the brain, that stops the animal's flight, and loss of blood that causes death. High lung hits cause drowning. 

[jpsmith1]

Slamfire, I already tried, man.  Belief is a very powerful thing, and he believes that hydrostatic shock kills.  Hey, so did Roy Weatherby, apparently because he was the driving force behind today's super-magnum, high velocity, high power movement.

Funny, isn't it, that the development of premium, controlled expansion bullets almost mirror the development of high-velocity super mags.  The fast expansion hydro-shock seems to have caused bullet 'blow-up' and subsequent lost game.  This pi$$ed people off and they set about making tougher bullets that wouldn't come apart at the higher impact velocities.

I just can't believe that this is a coincidence.  Higher velocity caused more shock and less penetration then people made bullets to shock less and penetrate more to achieve the same performance that they USED to have with the 'old-style' lower velocity loads and the 'old' cup and core type bullets.