.243 85gr= Strange Reaction from Deer?

[Lawful Larry]

Lets not turn this into an arguement,but YES if you hit bone your screwed however thats not what the original topic was about.Why use hardcast in a handgun?Simple you cant get enough velocity for alot of hydroshock.But go to a single shot pistol and look at what they shoot for bullets,not hardcast.I would sooner have the energy spent in the animal than in a tree 50yards away...what good is that?

I keep hearing this myth of spent energy inside the animal with smaller, high velocity rounds.  Well I think this is all BS.  It is the bullet and not the velocity.  If you use a full metal jack style bullet it will go in and come out.  The animal is only an obstruction to the forward motion of the bullet.  If the bullet has a specific design characteristic, it will react the the obstruction, animal, and expend more energy to complete its forward motion.  That simple!  This is why we usually use high performance bullets like ballistic tips or hollow points for hunting.  They react to the inside of an animal and loose their aerodynamics because of the deformity. 

But as with everything else on this forum, these are my thoughts on this obvious subject.     

[john keyes]

It always amazes me when a bullet breaks a shoulder (top of the animal), destroys the heart (bottom of the animal) and explodes both lungs (in between).  Reminds me of the bullet path described by the Warren Commission...

CH, IIRC that 6.5 bullet was a real stringbean...160 gr or more damn near FMJ. Did not surprise me at all that it would go through a couple of people and a car.

[lucky guy]

Been dead a LONG LONG time as far as I'm concerned. I've been trying for years to open folk's eyes to the myth of kinetic or paper energy.

We've all heard both sides of that debate over the years.  I read something in the last week or two that did it for me.  If that 2000 lbs of energy knocks down an elk at 100 yds why is the shooter still standing?  I didn't state it as well as the guy whose post I read, but you get the idea.   

[Lawful Larry]

If 2000 lbs of energy knocks down an elk at 100 yds why is the shooter still standing?

Sort of like the Hollywood shotgun effect of a guy getting hit with a round and being thrown back 30'. 

[Daman]

I have shot about 25 deer with a 243. All but 5 from a Browning A Bolt with 100 Grain Remmy's. All were bang flops but it was due to either neck or high shoulder shots. The others were from a Handi 243 and 95 Grain BT I shot all but one of these behind the shoulder and they did not hardly move out of their tracks before they fell. The last one was in the eye at about 15 yards so you can guess the result.

Daman

[RWK]

I
do'nt believe some of you guys you got to start a pissing match about everthig. Hit them right Bang plob!!!

[john keyes]

I have to say that my next rifle will surely be a .243.  I have a 6mm 788 that I bought for my son and though its not killed anything yet it is a death ray on paper at 200 yards with H414 and 80 gr corelocts. 
so I'm eager to amp it up with a stout .243 rifle and see what she will do.

[Squib]

I just got a .243, for varmint and deer hunting, and though I haven't shot a deer with it yet, I have used .308 and 45-70: both hit the heart a little bit off center, both bullets disintegrated, both animals got severely jellied at the terminal point of bullet travel, both shot at about 40yds, both deer about 200lbs, both from an elevated stand.  the .308 sort of "exploded" and the animal did a half-flip that turned into a cartwheel and a half and never got up, due to nervous interruption (shattered spine, ribs, viscera and a femur disintegrated).  it was still breathing a little while after I shot it though, despite being paralyzed and torn up inside.  a quick death but not a clean one.  the 45-70 buck probably outweighed me (I'm 210) and he continued to do what he had before I shot him: sniff the three does present and look around examining the area.  he spun around a few times in confusion, then went back and forth from the does while they were dispersing from the rally point, then he trotted off really stiff-legged towards thornbrush and finally got dizzy and collapsed, he tried to get up a few times though.  I hit him with a 300gr hp .458 (sierra), starline cases, winchester large rifle primer, 61.3grs of varget (I think, anyways it was just a touch under what the book said was max but it was causing a bit of primer flow so I stopped there).... so it should have been cruising at about 2,000fps or more but he took it, took his time checking the does, then gave up and trotted off about 50yds, and finally went down due to bloodloss.  when I checked him I found out why, good shot to the vitals HOWEVER the heart wasn't hit center, it was hit in the middle artery coming off the top, and the lungs were popped, but not torn loose from his diaphram.  he was still breathing and circulating blood at diminished capacity, he'd have probably ran like hell if his offside shoulder wasn't completely smashed (the bullet disintegrated completely).  if that loading and shot placement into the dead middle of the vitals won't do it, nothing will.  I hit his centerline vital spot BUT due to body position, bullet yaw once inside and/or his heart being canted a few degrees the bullet just nipped his heart stem.  that bullet "threaded the needle" and failed to deliver a catastrophic and instantaneous kill- a 50bmg wouldn't have done better, a .243 wouldn't have done worse (using a tough enough bullet to break that offside leg).  the only thing you get from a cartridge in killing power is ENOUGH or NOT enough.  caliber isn't a huge concern, .17-.50 isn't much of a difference really, and kinetic energy isn't the deathblow, it's the delivery system.... unless you electrify a deer-feeder 

[RevJim]

 I used a 6x47mm one year, after neck surgery. It had a 27" barrel, and I loaded the Barnes 85XBT to 2900fps ( just like a 243) It was a popgun in recoil, and a real killer on game. Now, I shot exactly 3 animals with it. A nice in velvet Axis buck,125yds, quartering away. I walked up to him and gave him another as he was not quite expired. I then shot a huge Scimitar Horned Oryx, through & through the base of the neck, DRT at 184 lasered yds. I gave him an insurance shot at 75, bullet went through heart, broke his spine, stopped under the hide. +20" penetration and bullet weighed 83gr. I then shot a Jackrabbit that afternoon, bullets zipped right through, thought I'd missed, he finally plopped over/kicked his last. Extreme sizes, but interesting results. I had it rechambered/bolt face opened up to 243 and gave the rifle to a friend in South Africa. He used Winchester 100gr PP factory ammo. He head shot Impala with it for culling,etc. I've seen some strange things with animals. shot with all kinds of calibers, it seems to have no rhyme or reason to it, ha.
  The hunt before the one above I did with a 220 Swift and the then factory Federal load of the 55gr Trophy Bonded bullet. Shot an average size muledeer in Utah, then went down to Texas and shot an Axis doe, and two really nice Blackbuck antelope. On it, they all dropped, but then tried to recover. I had to shoot the muledeer, axis doe and the Blackbucks again. Seemed to me the 'shock" on their body size affected their nervous system, but it sure didn't kill them on the first shot.
 The axis doe (80yds) was double lunged, the muledeer was center chest (also around 80yds,right over the heart) the wind blew the first shot on the first BB,(135yds) hit him in the ham! He took off ( these are tough/high dollar animals!) I swung ahead and "rabbit shot him", accidently hit him in the neck! ( I didn't tell the guide it was an accident,ha) 2nd BB was high shoulder shot at 125yds. He dropped, recovered and was trying to get up, neck shot him at 75yds as I approached. Recovered only a couple bullets, all .45 caliber and weighed 55gr! I sold that rifle to the guide ( he really wanted it) and I went to the above 6x47mm, but chose the Barnes XBT.
  I later used a .224 TTH ( 22/6mm) with the 75gr Swift Scirocco around 3750 and shot a 275# hog at 25 yds, neck shot/close to the head, bullet stayed inside/fragmented, but the hog was drt. No follow up needed.  I just recently had that rifle rebarreled to 7mm08, which I had used a few years back with 139SST Light Magnum ammo to heart shoot an exotic sheep around 200yds, he ran downhill for about 50yds, piled up. I also shot a 100# deer in Georgia one year at 15yds, 7Remmag/150 Nosler Partiton and he ran 60 or so yds, lungs jellied. I also used a 300 winmag on Texas Hill country deer with Federal factory 150 (sierra pro Hunters) and they "syphoned pices of the lungs/tissue out the exit hole at 45 yds! They were hanging out, and the deer ran 10 yds or so. I shot one buck, head/neck juncture, he dropped of course. I grazed the head on a big doe around 90 yds, she flopped around until I could get a second shot on her head. (gruesome!) They do what do, like I said, 'to me", I see no rhyme or reason to what they do, ha.

[mechanic]

A few years ago, I was hunting with a friend who has "magnumitis".  He hunts white tail with a 300 Weatherby mag.  I shot a large doe with a 100 gr. Cor loc from a 243, she never moved from the neck shot.
 
He shot one about the same time that we trailed almost 200 yds.  The off side was gone....literally.  You could have put both fists in the exit hole.
 
But...both were dead.  I just had more meat.
 
Ben

[Mattkc]

I do believe a deer can die from the as the result of hydrostatic shock. A few years a go I shot a nice buck with a 308, 150gr. Corelock. The shot was taken at 30 yards went through both shoulders and ended up under the skin on the far side. When hit he stumbled forward then reared up like a horse and bellowed. He then collapsed and died a couple of minutes later. When I butchered him I discover the round had not hit anything vital, the shoulders were broken but no organs or major arteries or veins were hit. There was hardly any bleeding and it made me wonder why he died so quickly.  I did some research and found he died from shock to the brachial nerve. That had to be a result of hydrostatic shock, simply severing the never would not result in a quick death.   

[fastchicken]

I'm hoping to see this "strange reaction" for myself this weekend with our early doe season.

[fastchicken]

Well, after shooting 3 deer with the Sierra 85gr HPBT the only strange reaction I got was the doe yesterday that went about 300 yards after taking one through the front of the chest. Bad shot on my part,  hit low in front of the front leg and had about a 1.5" exit in front of the opposite leg, at about 120yrds.
   I have never seen a blood trial so heavy and not had a dead deer within 50 yards or so. After about 150-200 yards I jumped her up, that was a surprise! She went about another 50-75 yards. Front of her lungs had a nice big hole through them, I guess she just really wanted to show me how far she could go.
   The first deer was hit through the shoulder at about 100yards [not my preferred shot but after the first "repositioning" shot, he wasn't really cooperating and I took what I had]. Bullet was found in the mush of leg bone on the other side, he made it about 60 yards.
   2nd one was another bad shot on my part, at 150yrds, a doe about head on. I hit to one side and high, into the backstrap. Losing half of it and both tenderloins . Took out about 4" of backbone, bone everywhere! 1st and 2nd recovered bullet were about 35 grains.
  Maybe on #4 I'll hit one where I want
 

[mannyrock]

 
 
     I hunted deer with a .243 for 7 years, before I finally gave it up.
 
     In my experience, the reaction you saw from the deer is very typical of a shot from a .243, even a good one.  Yes, it could have happened fwith a .308, but it would be rare.
 
     And, you were lucky that he didn't just take of, and run 300 yards, because often with a .243, there is little or no blood trail.
 
     Sooner or later, you are going to lose one with this caliber.
 
     So, if you want to stay with the .243, that's OK, but please move up to the 100 grain core-lokt, and avoid quartering shots at all times.   (In truth, the 85 grain was designed for ground hogs.)
Go for a high lung shot whenever possible.   The .243 shines on lung shots.
 
   I switched to the .308 Winchester, not to get bang shots, but to get a round that does leave a good blood trail and is capable of near pass throughs on rear quartering shots.  On large deer, the .243 just doesn't have the steam for this.
 
Best, Mannyrock
 
 
 
 
 

[fastchicken]

 I wasn't complaining about the bullet's performance, just giving an account of my experience with it so far.
The only complaint I had was with my shot placements.
  With upwards of 20 deer taken with my 243, all but the last 3 were with 100gr bullets [Winchester PP, Feds. and Sierra Prohunter]. The only reason any of the deer made it anywhere was no fault of the bullet, or caliber, just my shot placement. I've dropped them in their tracks with the 243, 30-06, 30-30, and 270. Also had them go over 100 yrds with an '06 round through the center of both lungs.
  I have no doubt the deer from my previous post would've made it just as far if hit with my '06. I was about 2" from a complete miss, so there just wasn't much lung all the way up front there for any bullet to hit, let alone that tiny 85 grainer .  That blood trail was one of the heaviest I've ever had, with any caliber, it just goes to show how far a deer can go while leaving a great blood trail.

     Sooner or later, you are going to lose one with this caliber.

     So, if you want to stay with the .243, that's OK, but please move up to the 100 grain core-lokt, and avoid quartering shots at all times.   (In truth, the 85 grain was designed for ground hogs.
Best, Mannyrock

Sooner or later anyone will lose a deer with any caliber and there isn't a shot I wouldn't take with the 243 that I would with a larger caliber, I don't shoot through hindquarters with any caliber. Within the range I'm comfortable shooting, I'll take any angle shot I can get with whatever caliber I'm shooting at the time.
 Those 85gr Gamekings are virtually the same construction as the 100gr Gamekings, [or just about any other cup and core bullet] just 15gr lighter and hollow point instead of exposed soft point. Sierra's 85gr Varminter is the lighter constructed bullet.
  From the performance on the first and second deer, penetration was not a problem. I've had my 270 give less penetration, mainly due to close range shots where higher impact velocity made the bullet came apart pretty quick but all resulted in dead deer.
  I have never had any of the 243 bullets I've used fail to penetrate or kill a deer on any of the shots I've taken and have actually been surprised a few times on how much penetration I got.

[flintlock]

Manny, with all due respect, you are wrong...
 
I've used a .243 since 1980 and killed over 300 deer with mine...Most were killed with 100gr CoreLokts but about 50 were killed with the Federal Premium 85gr Sierra GameKing HPBT...This is a DEER bullet, not a groundhog bullet...It's jacket is thicker and lead core a harder alloy than other cup and core bullets...
 
I didn't believe it either when I was told about this loading so I called Sierra and inquired and was told it certainly was a deer bullet...After killing a dozen or so, I agreed...I even shot a few at close range in the shoulder to see what happened, they dropped and didn't get back up...Lung shot deer had massive internal injuries, a good exit hole and good blood trails...
 
This bullet has quite a reputation among long time .243 users...It's become my "bean field" bullet as I can sight in 3 inches high at 100 yards and be 3 inches low at 300...The CoreLokt is great for the average shooter but for those of us that might stretch it out a bit, that 85gr is the one to have in the barrel at that time...

[mannyrock]

 
 
  Guys,
 
     My apologies.  When I said the 85 grainers were for groundhogs, I was referring to standard run of the mill factory loads, such as the Remington Core-lokts.  Not premium construction big game bullets.
 
     If you love the .243, then fine, I will leave it at this.  In my experience, the "strange" behavior that was reported for this deer is absolutely typical of what I've seen when a deer is shot with a .243.  Nothing strange about it.
 
    But please, don't bother to argue that a .243 routinely leaves a good blood trail.  It doesn't.  And if you shoot a 200 pound mountain whitetail in the Appalachians with  a .243, I can promise that sooner or later you will have to trail one for a long long way, and you will have problems.
 
Mannyrock

[flintlock]

I love it when guys give me advice on the .243 after I've killed over 200 deer with it and 5 black bears...Guess I need more gun...

[ThunderStick]

HOLY COW!
     I have not been on GBO in quite some time, but imagine my suprise when I saw this thread was still being posted on after 6 years!
 
     Well I am going to give a little update, as I have gleaned so much good advice from the discussions that go on here and other places on the net. I had switched from the 100gr Rem CL bullet, to the 85gr Game King because the ONLY 2 deer I have ever lost with the ol .243 was at ranges over 400 yards. One I can be sure where it was hit, because I followed the blood trail, jumped it, and a young man on the next ridge harvested him! (good job) It was a perfect hit with a pass through, good blood trail, but not a large amount, and I have no way to know if he would have kept bleeding, or ran for miles. The second one did just that, bled for a while and then just dried up! I surmised that the CL bullet was not expanding at the long ranges and just puntching a pencil hole. Never got the chance to use the 85GK at long distance, but killed several more deer with it, and nearly all had the same reaction as the first one. What scared me away is that none of them bleed to the out side, because at close range there was no exit, (My experence with the CL was no exit at close range)! So what did I do? After killing truck loads of deer with that ol .243 I sold it and bought a Rem. 700CDL SF limited in 260 Rem. Yep the same base, but 0.5MM larger. I have been shooting it for several years now, don't know the exact number of harvested deer, but no run offs. The first was about 50 feet! DRT The very next one was at that 450 yard mark. Hit just behind the shoulder with a hand loaded Nosler 120BT for a full pass through, an easy blood trail to where he lay about 50 yards away. So it seems the 120gr 6.5 BT does do a little better job (for me) than the 6mm 100gr CL at the longer ranges.  I guess some of the deer just don't know there dead! Someone on Youtube has videos of Prarie Dog shooting with a 22lr at longish distances. Some of the PDs just sort of spin, look around for a second or two then ball up and fall over, same thing with the deer I suspose.
     To all who posted about bullet placement, yes that is the KEY to a clean kill, but to the ones shooting a little larger bullet, if the bullet you are shooting doesn't perform well you may be a little ahead of a small cal shooter. Here you can use any centerfire round. I had a CZ527 .223 (sold it to a good friend) that I killed a few with as well, but where always afraid to shoot in the boiler room, so took neck shots and all dropped in their tracks. I have another 527 in 221 Fireball that I would'nt hesitate to take as a close range woods gun because it's so light and handy. Not because I feel it's an ideal white tail deer cartrige, but because I know the round, the gun, and my limitations, and can let a less than perfect shot, walk on by! Fantastic discussion!

[drdougrx]

The 243 is an interesting cartridge to me.  I'm not all that impressed with it for large northern deer (as in Maine/Canada where a mature buck can easily be 200+, can't comment on mulieas I've only shot them with the 270).  I've used the 243 cartridge allot on smaller deer and exotic sheep/goats. Usually with 95gr partitions or 95gr BTs.  I just bought a Tikka T3 Hunter in 243.....been loading 90gr Nosler Accubonds....might use it later this year on Japanese sika and ibex.   Rifles' a tack driver....love to hate this cartridge.....

[cjclemens]

Since this thread is back from the dead, ill just say that if .243 is marginal on deer, than no one should ever be allowed to shoot anything with a bow and arrow. I have some load data around here somewheres that says you can get a 100 grain bullet up to 3,000 fps. If that won't take out a white tail of any size, I dunno what will.

[pastorp]

Boy howdy, what a thread. Here's my take.  I've never shot a deer with a 243. But here's my opinion.

Ha ha. Now if you want to talk 308 I've shot quite a few with one of those. Well all I can say is my typing finger was itching. So I scratched it.

Regards,

[cjclemens]

Come on, pastorp. How else are we supposed to argue in here? The darn .223 on whitetail deer threads keep gettin locked and the .30-06 vs. .308 thread is even dustier than this one!

[flintlock]

They will all kill if the fellow behind the gun or bow is a true hunter, a good shot and knows his and his weapons limitations...
 
I recon I don't need to talk about the deer I've killed with a .40 caliber flintlock, don't want to be viewed as unethical......