Woman shot to death while defending herself. No legal recourse for family.

[Questor]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/22/woman.shot.ap/index.html

[Tom C.]

I think this is pretty typical of the excessive militarization of the police. They put together a SWAT team and have to show usage to keep it, so the start serving minor warrants with them. And when they make a mistake, people are killed, but the cops are free of liability. Great. This is becoming more and more common.

[Dusty Miller]

According to the article the cops were shot "as they approached the house".  'Scuse me but you don't get no extra consideration under those circumstances due to advanced age. 

[EdK]

According to the article the cops were shot "as they approached the house".  'Scuse me but you don't get no extra consideration under those circumstances due to advanced age. 

I don't know about that Dusty - it sorta does say that but also the article reads:
******
The woman, Kathryn Johnston, was the only resident in the house at the time and had lived there for about 17 years, Assistant Chief Alan Dreher said.

The officers had a legal warrant, "knocked and announced" before they forced open the door and were justified in shooting once fired upon, he said.
******
The story is a bit ambiguous. Seems to me three wounded officers would not have proceeded to knock, announce & then break the door if they were all three already wounded outside.

[greenjeans]

I agree with Dusty. If the police are shot at first, then they have every right to shoot back. And, they are held responsible for their actions. If it's justified, it's justified. Easy for us to slam them, and then raise cane if they don't show up in 2 minutes when we have a need.

[sgtt]

Doesn't say anything about a SWAT team.  At what age should the police not fire back if fired upon?

[Maryland Hunter]

I agree that the story has some contradictory statements to it. With the media telling us what they want us to hear, I wonder what the real story is?

MH

[BlkHawk73]

  I'm with the cops on this one too.  If they are shot at they return fire - period.  The age/sex/gender of the assailant is not a consideration.  If they were shot at while appraoching the house, there was yet to be any activity which clearly brought emminant danger upon the woman.  During a know warrant, the police announce who they are and why they're there.  On a no-knock warrant no notice is given but those warrant are not handed out freely by the courts.  Heck regualr knock-warrants are free for the taking.  They're approved only when there's a strong likelyhood of person(s) or items being very dangerous or eaily disposed of by the suspect.    If this suspect was a black male,  6'8" and weighed in a 265 lbs would it create the same uproar?  Doubt it. 
  Seems funny also that with all this going down as fast as it apparantly did, this innocent old woman had a firearm awfully darn accessable.  Hmmmm....
   Funny how everyone is always so qucik to jump on and attack the actions of the police when they themselves are always saying how they're armed to the teeth and ould do this and that is they were confronted and this and thattactic for HD and so on an so on.  Walk a few shifts in thier shoes and you'll havea differnt viewpoint. 

  She got what she desrved in my opinion. 

[jerkface11]

Maybe they should stop serving warrants in the middle of the night.

[BlkHawk73]

Maybe they should stop serving warrants in the middle of the night.

  yeah? that's the answer.     Always amused by those not in the loop having the answers.  Time and methods are on a case by case basis.  It takes more than just a "Hey's do it this way at this time using this method" and have it be a automatic go.  It's not just the polie that are involved in there decisions.  It sounds like this may have been a drug thing which is not totally impossible so again, if this was a 35yo black man, was 6'*' and weighed in the 265 lb range would it still have been better at night?

[Old Griz]

It make since to serve the warrant when you would expect the person you were after to be there. That's not the middle of the day, when he could be anywhrere. At night is the logical time.

[Ak.Hiker]

I read that story as well. It does not add up. I would wait for the police to finish their investigation. The press may not have all of the facts.

[dukkillr]

The press may not have all of the facts.

WHAT?!!?!?!?!?!?!  Don't say things that require thought and *gasp* moderation!

DOWN WITH THE COPS!  THEY ARE REALLY GESTAPOS!  THEY SHOOT UNARMED (SORTA) OLD LADIES FOR FUN!  TAKE UP ARMS AND START THE REBELLION!

[jerkface11]

 It's truly amazing how many people side with the police no matter what they do. Let me guess they were only following orders.

[dukkillr]

I'm not siding with anyone.  I do criminal defense for a living.  I know better than anyone on this board what the police do.  What I suggested was that maybe all these wild-eyed crazy statements don't have enough facts or enough rational to be taken seriously. 

[Old Griz]

One thing that impressed me was that a 92 year old woman got 5 hits on three police officers before they got her. I think a certain police department needs to change their tactics, or update their training a bit. If it had been a young drug dealer with a  a high cap semi, or fully automatic weapon, there could easily have been three dead cops at that address.

[Mikey]

Well folks - there you have it.  Damned if ya do and damned if ya don't.  That old woman was armed to defend herself in a pretty crummy neighborhood.  She was 92 years old.  Squat treams serving warrants don't bother knockin', they just bust their asses on through, at least in neu yawk.  What the hay was she to think but to use the gun for the reason she had it - to protect herself against home invaders.  And she wounds 3 cops. 

Well, I suppose they are the local heros of the day so don't expect the 'official police investigation' to go layin' any blame on the 'official conduct' of the officers involved. 

Hey, dig a hole and throw her in face down - they'll show the world how to deal with armed citizens. 

Now, I told ya stuff like this was gonna happen but noooo, nobody listens................  Ya see, scared and gutless hit teams like that start with the old ones or the very young ones, those who really can't defend themselves well - that's how they 'get their blood', didn't ya know.  The only time they slow down after that first bloody success (damn, that 92 y/o terrorist/druggie got 3 of us.....) is when their numbers start getting thinned out real fast every time they start breaking down doors. 

Me - I've got reinforced door structures, an early warning system and the mad desire to take the fight right on back to their home turf if they mistake me for someone else.  I'm a law abiding guy but my last name isn't of proper english derivation - and cops in this neck of the woods ain't members of the 'Best and the Brightest'; they make mistakes that kill and get swept under the rug - oops, sorry about the citizen, pay the widow (if she survives). 

I told ya this crap was going to start happening.  Mikey.

[BlkHawk73]

It's truly amazing how many people side with the police no matter what they do. Let me guess they were only following orders.

  It's actually more amazing how many side against the police regardless of what they do. When these same people have been there / done that, make a judgemnet, until then... 

[Old Griz]

And the same morons complain when the police don't get to their call fast enough to suit them. They can gripe about the police all they want, but they wouldn't want to live in a society that doesn't have police protection.

[ShooterToo]

After reading all I could find on the net it seems the police were following standard procedure.  A drug buy was made at the house. A warrent was issued.  The police announced their presence then broke the door down.  The women fired as they entered and was killed by return fire.  Drugs were found in the home.

Maybe she didn't hear the announcement.  The woman saw men entering her house and defended it.  The police returned fire when fired upon.

Maybe they shouldn't have returned fire.  Should we disarm our police like England? I would hate to have a comparative crime rate to that of England. 

Maybe the police entered too soon after announcing?  Would you rather the police change their tatics to one of waiting after announcing they have a warrent until all of the evidense is destroyed?

I keep going back to the root cause of the incident...Undercover officers buying drugs from a man at the house.  The woman or her family should not have let this sort of thing happen.  The police do not break down doors at prayer meetings or Bible studies taking place.  They go to places where crimes are being commited.  If you never break the law you probably will never meet a police officer in uniform.  That is just plain fact.

[springer222]

In Dallas law enforcement used swat tactics to "raid" several "illegal" gambling establishments. Local news had the "raids" on the 10 o'clock news and from what they showed there were no "announced" entries. "Officers" in the full swat uniforms broke down the doors with battering rams, went in with guns drawn on folks sitting around playing Texas Hold'em. Now I'm not saying the gambling is legal activity, but in my opinion this type of law enforcement does little to aide in the public opinion of their service and protection. These same warrants could have been just as easily served by uniformed officers and the same tickets and arrests made.

Also, in Texas, law enforcement agencies are using game wardens since a game warden requires no written warrant. Now I'm all for removing illegal drugs from the streets, but game wardens are paid with revenue from the hunting and fishing industries. If police agencies do not have enough evidence or are too lazy to follow the proper channels to acquire warrants, again my opinion, they have no justification to use game wardens as a replacement.

Not that either of these two instances have any bearing on the raid in Atlanta, but just two examples of over-reaching of authority. Not many years ago, law enforcement followed the proper channels, acquired the necessary paperwork, went to the establishment, knocked on the door and proceeded accordingly. If the use of force was necessary, then and only then was it used. And there was very little public animosity of over-stepping their authority with the midnight raids.

[jerkface11]

It's truly amazing how many people side with the police no matter what they do. Let me guess they were only following orders.

  It's actually more amazing how many side against the police regardless of what they do. When these same people have been there / done that, make a judgemnet, until then... 

 How dare I speak out against the police!! There should be a law!! Everything they do is just fine no matter what. I'm sorry and retract any statement i may have made against them.

[Mikey]

That's alright guys, got a better one this morning.  Seems someone needed 'blood', so without apparent reason 5 nyc cops opened fire on 3 unarmed men leaving a parking lot in a car outside a nyc strip club, killing one and wounding two.  No guns, no drugs, no threats, just 3 unarmed guys, buckled into their seat belts.

Easy targets, unable to defend themselves.  May have driven too close to one cop who never identified himself or appeared in uniform.  5 plainclothes cops pumping shots into 3 unarmed guys - one attending his bachelor party.  Groom killed, two others wounded, one 11 times. 

5 more cops got their bones and made thier blood. 

Side with who?  Kiss my bass pal.  You gotta lay down the line somewhere and it seems that twice in 3 days the cops have stepped over it. 

We really need this kind of gestapo law enforcement.  I thought the 2nd Amendment gve us the right to defend ourselves, so where in hell do these murderin' scum come from (oh gosh, was I referring to nyc cops???).  Mikey.

[jerkface11]

 Careful Mikey if you haven't "been there done that" you aren't allowed to even talk about the police or their actions. We've probably been reported to homeland security already.

[wyocarp]

It would seem to me that the police should have done some more homework on who lived at that address before busting down the door.  Why were they in such a hurry to put someone behind bars or kill someone?  If the lady had lived there for 17 years, then the police should have known that.  What I don't know from reading the article was if the 92 year old lady was involved somehow or knew that the drugs were being bought from her around her house.  That would make a difference.

I'll get some heat for this, but I wish she would have been a better shot.  We have too many police policing us way too much.

[Mikey]

wyocarp - ahh my fren, please let me reiterate a previous statement about the cops in my neck of the woods not being members of the 'Best and the Brightest', and apply that to a few more municipalities.   

jerkface:  thanks for the concern.  Mikey.

[fiream29]

And the same morons complain when the police don't get to their call fast enough to suit them. They can gripe about the police all they want, but they wouldn't want to live in a society that doesn't have police protection.

We don't HAVE police protection in this country and HAVEN'T had it since the girlies on the supreme court sided with the cops and ruled there is no legal requirement for them to do anything until and unless a crime is committed.

[Old Griz]

Wow. You don't think the police make a difference? I don't know where YOU live, but my city is #2 on the FBI's list of violent crimes, and #2 for robbery and theft. I thank God for the brave men and women who are putting their lives on the line for the citizens of this city, and I'll support them any way I can. We sure couldn't live here without them. Yes, I'd like to move, but that is not an option at the present time. Those you who live in Mayberry can downgrade the police all you want, but don't try it here. We need more, not less.

Plus, do you believe everything you read in the paper? I remember the picture of Clinton shaking hands with aliens in the "Sun" or "Enquirer." I guess you believe that really happened, too?

Gosh, get a life.

[EastKY_DO]

Hey Ol' Griz,

Long time no type.  I saw the recent stats about my OLD hometown.  Makes me glad to be up here in the hills.  When are you comin' up?

Later . . .
Doc 

[fiream29]

Wow. You don't think the police make a difference? I don't know where YOU live, but my city is #2 on the FBI's list of violent crimes, and #2 for robbery and theft.
Gosh, get a life.

Just #2? Sounds like they are doing an EXCELLENT job "where YOU live"! I don't see where anyone was suggesting getting rid of the police. Regardless of where YOU live, mayberry or downtown chicago, a citizen should not have to go to bed fearing law enforcement as much as he fears the criminals. Sadly, this becoming the norm in more and more communities. Just like with gun control, many people seem to believe that allowing law enforcement to run rampant will somehow “make them safer”. You bet. Everyone knows prisons are just SO safe. If we could just have more cops with more freedom to search and seize and snoop we would all be so much safer. After all if you aren’t doing anything wrong you shouldn’t be concerned, right? Well, hopefully it won’t be YOUR wife, child or friend killed in their bed by a stray bullet fired by some cop toting an M-16, G3, or MP-5 during another botched “raid”. How many dead are acceptable and will you still feel the same if it’s one of your own?  If you think getting a few ounces or pounds or even a truck load of drugs off the street is worth the life of a friend or family member then you are getting exactly what you expect and no less/more than you deserve.

 Since someone brought up Gestapo, fear is exactly how the Nazis came into power. If the general populace becomes so in fear of their own skin that they will condone or at least look away when cops murder or otherwise abuse power then yes we will have a police state and what rights we are still allowed will be few and meaningless.

We have rotated around from the idea that cops are there “to protect and serve” to the acceptance that a cops life is some how more valuable than the citizens he/she is paid to protect and if they maim, kill, or jail the wrong person well it was just a tragic accident. Sadly, I expect this trend to continue. Now that they have the additional excuse, as if they needed one, of “fighting terror” I’m confident there will be a continued increase in the number of innocent civilians killed in the name of “protection”.

Being nearly full quill Irish, I come from a long line of firefighters, cops, and lawyers. I’ve seen enough firsthand to convince me that this is a growing problem in this country and with the blind faith expressed here I know it will continue. I am well aware there are a great many good, decent cops out there. I am also aware that a human, regardless of how good and decent and moral they are, can be corrupted in short order when exposed to the proper environment. Did your momma ever warn you about the crowd you hang out with? Mine sure did. Cops are trained to lie and use nearly any means to obtain info or to solve a crime. Ever heard the old adage “those who lie will also cheat and steal”? Maybe you think it’s true of everyone except cops? Couple that with current trend of being trained to protect their own life at all costs and it really isn’t hard to foresee the outcome. There is plenty of research out there showing that we truly are a product of our environment so trying to claim or believe cops are somehow exempt from this is goofy at the very least.

I certainly don’t believe everything I see or hear spewed by the media but I do have enough sense to know where there is smoke there is fire. I also know how to do my own research.
 It would be interesting to see the general response if the fire fighters decided to adopt the same rules of engagement as law enforcement. “Gee Mr. fireman, my sisters in that burning house, why won’t you go in and save her?
Mmm… Sorry son, that house is on fire and just too dangerous for me to enter. I’ll go in as soon as we get it completely put out. Oh, and as soon as an engineer assures us the structure is totally stable and safe. And as soon as it has cooled off and all the nails are removed and sharp glass and……